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[Cataclysm] - Survival Hunter


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#41 Guest_26thraider_*

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Posted 15 December 2010 - 02:49 AM

Back to the High LnL rotation.

I have tried out going for ExS-SerpS-ExS-AS-ExS. I haven't actually tried out Kill Command, but if what Luckyshot said is right, that KC is worth about half of AS, then the instant portion of Serpent Sting might just edge it out. This is due to two things, lower focus cost (we are mainly trying to dump some focus, not a great deal) and the Mastery scaling (this portion might of course not kick in yet).
Besides, do we even know if KC is affected by Noxious Stings? It says 'your damage', so I'm guessing no.

Basically KC might be more DPS, but much less DPF (KC needs to do 60% more damage than the instant portion of the sting for be equal DPF). Naturally since it is a situation of dumping focus, the DPF could be very moot. However, the base regen is pretty low, and the actual regeneration should be pretty low for the duration (4 seconds), so a higher DPF ability should be better as it would allow for more Arcanes later.

The actual inclusion of Arcane Shot in LnL appears to be a relic of the time when ExS was talented. Low level Hunters needed to have a use for LnL. Now that requirement is gone, so it begs the question, why is Arcane still included? For complexity would be the optimistic answer.

#42 Tragos

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Posted 15 December 2010 - 02:49 AM

Am I correct in understanding the way you presented stat vaules in that Hit > Agi > Crit > haste > mastery? I was under the impression that Mastery was our best (aside from agility) stat.



As far as I can tell, 1 agility is stronger than 1 hit rating. Either way, with reforging now, the best way to get more hit is through reforging, not through gemming so you'll rarely have to choose between them.

#43 footloop

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Posted 15 December 2010 - 03:11 AM

Crit is better than mastery because it has the same damage boost for our elemental damage but also applies to autoshot/killshot, in addition to proc'ing some stuff. Technically if you were doing 100% elemental damage then keeping your crit% and your % boost from mastery dead even would give max dps, but again since crit also affects autoshot you're better off with crit until you have something like 3 or 4 times as much.

#44 Varia

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Posted 15 December 2010 - 05:11 AM

I think that dealing with l&l proccs is situational since your amount of focus when the procc occurs is completely random.

I found myself 3 ways to handle a l&l procc (putting it simple):

1. low focus : ExS -> CS -> ExS -> CS -> Exs
2. medium focus : ExS -> CS -> ExS -> AS -> ExS
3. high focus : ExS -> KC -> ExS -> CS -> ExS

This only applies when BA is on cooldown of course.

I personally think, that KC is a good focus dump in situations with dangeriously high focus, because when youre attempting to min-max too much with AS or SS, a TotH-procc can pretty much mess you up.

#45 Handa

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Posted 15 December 2010 - 06:15 AM

For SV it's not just haste that affects this but our crit too. I've noticed during rapidfire if I get a string of crits (which then partially refund the focus cost) I easily focus cap and have to sometimes use a string of arcane shots to keep from becoming focus capped. This seems to happen more during rapidfire, berserking or bloodlust where the combinations of crit proc from a trinket + haste buff leads to focus capping.


Yeah, a lot of focus during haste effects and in boss fights I guess that might lead to over 10 arcane shots, will have to keep checking as I go along since we just started raiding yesterday.

#46 Esoth

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Posted 15 December 2010 - 06:28 AM

Am I correct in understanding the way you presented stat vaules in that Hit > Agi > Crit > haste > mastery? I was under the impression that Mastery was our best (aside from agility) stat.

I tried not to be too specific about where stats lie right now, because the tools that are in place right now are probably not mature enough to present results that accurately. Rivkah has also stated that his/her analyzer should be taken with a "huge grain of salt" currentlyhttp://elitistjerks....14/#post1812255 You also have cases where there are soft caps in the analyzer that don't necessarily correspond to actual in game play (unless you get TotH procs at the same time, LNL procs at the same time, etc), leading to stat weights that artificially high or low in some places.

We can probably say that Agi > Hit > Haste/Crit/Mastery with Haste, Crit, Mastery not necessarily in that order. As others have pointed out, it's very likely that Crit > Mastery. In some cases maybe Hit > Agi, but that doesn't matter as long as both are better than Haste/Crit/Mastery since you can reforge to hit cap.
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#47 Gada

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Posted 15 December 2010 - 10:15 AM

I think that dealing with l&l proccs is situational since your amount of focus when the procc occurs is completely random.

I found myself 3 ways to handle a l&l procc (putting it simple):

1. low focus : ExS -> CS -> ExS -> CS -> Exs
2. medium focus : ExS -> CS -> ExS -> AS -> ExS
3. high focus : ExS -> KC -> ExS -> CS -> ExS

This only applies when BA is on cooldown of course.

I personally think, that KC is a good focus dump in situations with dangeriously high focus, because when youre attempting to min-max too much with AS or SS, a TotH-procc can pretty much mess you up.


I would say

1. low focus : ExS -> CS -> ExS -> CS -> Exs
2. medium focus : ExS -> CS -> ExS -> AS -> ExS
3. high focus : ExS -> KC -> ExS -> AS / CS -> ExS

Depending on your focus regen, you might end up overcaping again with the CS between 2nd and 3rd ExS. Probably will happen alot during heroism / bloodlust.

#48 Fearkin

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Posted 15 December 2010 - 01:30 PM

I've been torn between the AS and SS glyph as well, but I've decided on SS. Although the difference between the two seems almost negligible on single target in Zeherah's, you have to consider any fight with adds or time where SS will be ticking while the boss isn't being attacked directly. For example with the ratio of SS ticks to AS in a fight like Magmaw SS becomes a clear winner. Even in the worst case scenario, a flawless single target fight, it will only be ~40dps worse if the simulation is correct..


Would have said the same.
On my side, in a single target fight with Chimaeron, AS glyph was slightly higher than SrS based on number of shots and damages (with 19 AS shot at the end of the fight), by something like 800 damage done (over millions damage, this is not significant).

And since multiple encouters require to blast adds (thus multi-shot + serpent spread), I would guess that SrS glyph would be higher. There are at least 4+ adds poping frequently for omnotron, magmaw, conclave of wind, maloriak and cho'gall (don't know about Al'Akir and Nefarian yet). And Ascendant council might require to switch from on guy to the other, again leaving a ticking SrS on the first one.
This leaves us with 5 to 6 fights out of 12 that benefit SrS glyph over AS. At least you can swap them for these fights.

I will try it this week and hopefully record logs to be analyzed.

#49 Mordirith

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Posted 15 December 2010 - 03:36 PM

Unrelated question: Has anyone tested if our mastery affects non-hunter procs and abilities? For instance, the goblin rocket racial, , etc.


Regarding the the damage displayed in the tooltip is lowered when i remove any type of gear with mastery on it, so I think it is safe to assume that it is affected by mastery.

#50 pichuca

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Posted 15 December 2010 - 03:49 PM

Crit is better than mastery because it has the same damage boost for our elemental damage but also applies to autoshot/killshot, in addition to proc'ing some stuff. Technically if you were doing 100% elemental damage then keeping your crit% and your % boost from mastery dead even would give max dps, but again since crit also affects autoshot you're better off with crit until you have something like 3 or 4 times as much.



Yup but 1% crit is not the same DPS increase as 1% mastery. while mastery increasing your magic damage, let´s say, about 80% of your total damage, every point of mastery adds the same amount of damage to that portion. On the other hand, the more crit you have the less valuable it is, as each point of crit added has a lesser impact on your DPS. There might be a shifting moment where mastery surpass crit in absolute value.

#51 ninoffmaniak

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Posted 15 December 2010 - 04:02 PM

1. Addressing serpent vs arcane if calculations are correct and 50 dps more from arcane glyph on perfect 1 target fight in most of fight you will keep serpent on more targets then one (or aoe with serpent spread).

Nefarian 2 targets
Cho'gall 2 targets
Ascendant Council 2 targets
Valiona and Theralion 2 targets on some part of fight
Halfus Wyrmbreaker 3-4 targets in same time depends of tactics you use
Maloriak green phase aoe
Magmaw adds if you chose to kill them (we just kite them to end of fight by frost dk)
Omnotron green adds aoe
Conclave of Wind adds aoe

So in only 3 fights arcane could prove better then serpent making serpent winner overall.


2. Thing i wont to discus is benefit of improved stady shot talent as survival.
For me with 4% haste with me with around 350 ilvl i never use arcane shots (my guild pop lust on start so even then i spam cobra 60% more crit and 1.1s cast time) so i think getting 15% haste is big dps incise with uptime i could have it would be around 11% effective haste.

I can stick 2 stedis and one cobra/ba/arcane in be-twine every explosive shot making solid uptime i would lost cobra shot damage because stedy hitting less and 3 talent points (1 from serpent spread and 2 of sic'em) but gaining atleast 11% haste.
i plan to have dual spec one with normal spec and one for single target dps with ISS.

3. survival tactics or hunter vs wild should be dropped for entrapment bellicose it is big help on kiting on Magmaw Maloriak and green adds on Omnotron.

#52 Tragos

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Posted 15 December 2010 - 04:33 PM

Yup but 1% crit is not the same DPS increase as 1% mastery. while mastery increasing your magic damage, let´s say, about 80% of your total damage, every point of mastery adds the same amount of damage to that portion. On the other hand, the more crit you have the less valuable it is, as each point of crit added has a lesser impact on your DPS. There might be a shifting moment where mastery surpass crit in absolute value.


no, there is no diminishing return on crit (besides the DR on GFTT). Go try it out in femaledwarf.

Ignoring procs and chaotic meta for the sake of simplicity, going from 0% crit to 1% crit is exactly a 1% dps gain. More realistically going from 20% crit to 21% is a 0.833% dps increase. This isn't diminishing returns however. Even agility is better at low levels of gear if you look at it as a percent increase.

Your first percentage of mastery is not a 1% increase to your elemental damage. It's a (1.09/1.08)= 0.925% increase. As you get more mastery rating, it will suffer from the same fake diminishing returns.

#53 Neruse

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Posted 15 December 2010 - 05:51 PM

Also, regarding the crit vs mastery debate, note that most players aren't able to use the 3% crit damage metagem which, once fixed, will somewhat increase the value of crit. Fiddling with FD suggests that crit will stay slightly superior to mastery all the way until pet crit cap, I think.

#54 Guest_26thraider_*

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Posted 15 December 2010 - 06:26 PM

I personally think, that KC is a good focus dump in situations with dangeriously high focus, because when youre attempting to min-max too much with AS or SS, a TotH-procc can pretty much mess you up.


Mess you up? If Thrill procs from Arcane, you have just spent 22 focus and gained 9. If that caps you out, something is wrong. And that is most likely not even a full waste. It will only ever be a full waste if you start at 100 and it procs. That's near impossible.
Thrill proccing is always better than not (I haven't read anything to indicate it has an internal cooldown). It's a bonus. Trying to make sure it doesn't proc seesm to be rather counterproductive. You should hope it procs on every ability possible. Besides it can't proc from Serpent Sting anyway. As I said, KC needs to be 60% more damage than the Improved Serpent Sting proc. If you are at 100 when you cast it, then within 1 second you need to regen 25 focus for it to cap again, this is the only time KC needs to do less than 60% more damage. Obviously you would use Arcane Shot after the second LnL Explosive.

#55 Ardeaf

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Posted 15 December 2010 - 07:13 PM

Unrelated question: Has anyone tested if our mastery affects non-hunter procs and abilities? For instance, the goblin rocket racial, , etc.


Enhancement shaman's mastery increases the damage of the darkmoon card(they have pretty much the same one as us), so I don't see why SV's mastery wouldn't increase the damage of the same things.

#56 Guest_Alkii_*

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Posted 15 December 2010 - 09:34 PM

You need 179.28 haste rating to get 1% haste.


I was under the impression that 128.07 haste rating is needed to get 1% haste. Using Zeherah's Haste calculator, 128 reflects 1% Haste.

#57 Esoth

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 12:18 AM

I was under the impression that 128.07 haste rating is needed to get 1% haste. Using Zeherah's Haste calculator, 128 reflects 1% Haste.

You are correct, I must have looked at the value for Crit or Mastery on accident since those are both 179.28. Edited the OP to reflect this.
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#58 Damän

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 01:28 AM

I now tried to include KC into the rotation without great dmg increase. Vice versa I experienced a slight loss of ~400dps. I am aware of saying that everything went like hitting the dummy in Stormwind. It was testified within the Baradin Hold. Using AS seems worth it. I will now focus on the MS thing.

#59 proxx

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 10:11 AM

The KC would only ever be worth looking into when you're LnL procced with ~full focus AND everything else already on CD anyway, it's so situational that you really wouldnt get many come up in a fight unless you were very unlucky. As such, if you noticed a 400dps loss, I would say you were actually using KC too much. I would be surprised if you had to hit it more than twice in a 5 minute fight.
You can probably look at your raw numbers and work out whether KC or MS will work better for you in this specific situation, though there are a few things to consider; as soon as more than one mob is involved, MS would beat out KC. Likewise if any pet shenanigans are going on, KC might not even be an option.

The only other factor to consider is whether its a dps loss to burn that focus on a sub par ability and waste the GCD, or accept you're focus capped, hit another cobra instead of standing around waiting, and dumping focus like mad on AS the second LnL dissapears.

#60 heliconius

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 01:00 PM

-A question to make it clear; on a single target fight 5min+, assuming I have ganerated enough focus, is it better to re-cast SS (imp SS) or always refresh SS through CS?




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