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[Holy]Cataclysm Holy Compendium (4.0.6)


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#21 Sethronu

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 12:03 PM

[quote name='relaxo']Maybe you have too many healers in your raid? The process shouldn't be "heal - don't heal - heal", but "high hps + low hpm - low hps + high hpm - high hps + low hpm"[/QUOTE]
We run 5-6 healers in our 25-man, sometimes upping it to 7 when learning a new fight - seems like a pretty standard amount. We usually have 2 Druids in the raid, and always have a Shaman so with some hots + ES on the tank, there's really no need for me to spamcast at it unless there is heavy raid damage going around as well and the hots go off the tank. I'm not saying I just sit around there doing nothing, but like, there are definitely plenty of times when there are breaks in healing - depending on which encounter it is, of course. [/QUOTE]


[quote name='relaxo']Healing meters are often disguiding, especially if you have too many healers. (Which I don't say you do, but it's possible)[/QUOTE]
Having spent majority of tBC and WLK telling everyone how meaningless healing meters are, I know exactly what you mean - but I really don't think that's the case here.


[quote name='relaxo']I scribbled down some calculations some time ago, and if they were correct, then even if you use spirit to compensate the mana loss of haste, and now spend the item budget of spirit on crit, you won't make up for the loss of throughput going from haste to crit (by quite a fair amount). Regarding HS you are correct, of course.[/QUOTE]
Thing is, every single of my items with the exception of the Dragonmaw rep neck has Spirit on it, and I still could use some more regen. My primary spell is most of the time DL, and I use HR extensively; there's just no way I could get more regen now to compensate for more intensive casting unless I started stealing innervates from Druids. I'll obviously switch to more Haste-biased gear at some point - probably around 4p T11 - but for entry level raiding, I feel Crit has been an excellent choice.

At any rate, I don't want to argue that this is the perfect way to go or anything; just putting it out there, as it worked perfectly well for me and I think most people discard Crit as bad far too easily.

#22 relaxo

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 01:06 PM

Well 5-6 Healers are of course not too many. So as long as you're successful with your strategy, as you are, go on. (and report if you get to compare)

#23 Calefax

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 07:04 PM

As for the stat priority, Mastery sucks. On paper haste is better than mastery in pure HPS, so we don't even need to consider the inherent problems with it: Small shields will overwrite large ones and unless tank healing there's no guarantee that the shield will be used = wasted HPS.


The "problems" you list about holy paladin mastery aren't very accurate. Firstly, I was under the distinct impression that smaller shields actually REFRESH the duration of larger shields, NOT overwrite them. If they do overwrite, then you have a point, but I'm fairly certain they don't.

Secondly, I think that in a raid environment you can pretty much guarantee that your shield won't be wasted. I've only seen 4 fights so far in Cataclysm 10/25m, but every single one of them has some form of unavoidable and fairly constant raid damage. I don't see a reason why that trend wouldn't continue.

#24 Nitz

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 07:29 PM

Yes smaller shields do not overwrite bigger ones, they only refresh them.

Case in point:
http://img718.images...tedhealing.jpg/

#25 jmayhall

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 09:06 PM

Given the recent changes that were implemented yesterday, and assuming we come to the conclusion that using Crusader Strike is a viable and efficient way to generate Holy Power, does this make Blessed Life a more attractive talent since we'll possibly be healing in melee range more often and more likely to take some form of damage?


I would agree it's a viable way to generate HP, however, if your reason for generating HP faster is so you can use LoD, you are essentially stacking with the melee to heal. In doing this, you would spend alot of time adjusting your position to use even use LoD. Alot of the time the tanks are in need of constant heals, I just dont see the practical use of CS in raids. You can still cast HL, and by the end of your cast, HS will be off CD, or very close to use.

#26 Hazui

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 09:26 PM

I've got to agree, I'm not sure that tying a GC with CS for holy power is a good use of time. I typically fill in free casts with either holy lights for shields, or just holy light cancel casting. After about two of those, HS is back off CD

#27 Naronas

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 01:37 AM

With the latest ToR change, I feel that 3 points in the spec as part of the core is not the same bang for your buck it used to be. I am running a different 31/3/3 and find it much more mana efficient while giving me high throughput. The core spec is Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft. Also, I think that PoJ should be listed as a possible talent choice. While it is not a direct throughput addition, 15% run speed is still extremely good. The immobilize/fear/stun effect MAY be useful on certain fights as well.

#28 Naronas

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 01:49 AM

While "mastery sucks" on paper, its an incredibly useful stat to have. I could feel the difference with the shields up, and my meters don't lie. Paladin without them in my group who did within 2% of my healing on Omnitron, effectively healed for about 140k less then I did over the course of the fight. I'm currently running with 16.9 mastery rating.


Mastery is still too situational for Holy. On certain fights, or while sticking on a tank, it is going to be much more useful. Also, a fight like Omni where the shield will be absorbed by Acquiring target, or Flamethrower, it is going to shine. On other fights, probably much less. Mastery>Crit any day (Assuming you are maintaining near 100% Conviction uptime), but Haste>Mastery realistically too. More heals in a certain time span, as long as your mana can sustain it, will drastically increase your effective throughput, as well as your ability to save the guy who is about to die.

#29 iatnuolas

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 02:20 AM

With the latest ToR change, I feel that 3 points in the spec as part of the core is not the same bang for your buck it used to be. I am running a different 31/3/3 and find it much more mana efficient while giving me high throughput. The core spec is Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft.


Unless I'm missing something, how are you finding it more mana efficient to have only one/two "dependable" sources of Holy Power (from Holy Shock, and Crusader Strike if you count it)? Wouldn't it be more efficient to have a 100% chance to generate a charge of Holy Power when you Divine Light or Flash of Light?

It seems to me that if you have 3 points in ToR, you're essentially gaining a 2.5k HP heal (with no spell power) per cast of DL/FoL on your Beacon target, but when you have one point, you only have a 33% chance to gain that 2.5k HP heal, which, in the long run, turns out only being worth 742 HP per DL/FoL.

#30 aggixx

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 02:55 AM

Unless I'm missing something, how are you finding it more mana efficient to have only one/two "dependable" sources of Holy Power (from Holy Shock, and Crusader Strike if you count it)? Wouldn't it be more efficient to have a 100% chance to generate a charge of Holy Power when you Divine Light or Flash of Light?

It seems to me that if you have 3 points in ToR, you're essentially gaining a 2.5k HP heal (with no spell power) per cast of DL/FoL on your Beacon target, but when you have one point, you only have a 33% chance to gain that 2.5k HP heal, which, in the long run, turns out only being worth 742 HP per DL/FoL.

Seems to me like his argument is that you rarely heal the beaconed target in a raid environment. With the 5 fights I've seen I'd have to tend to agree with this (10 man), and I'd imagine this even more so in a 25 man environment.
Obviously this would vary on a fight per fight basis though.

Although I think I'll be keeping 3/3 ToR simply because it's very useful in heroics and I don't want to have to switch my spec around everytime I do a heroic or raid (but that's a bit off-topic).

#31 Ionel

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 03:22 AM

Although haste may have the highest HPS value of all out secondary stats, there still is a point where its value is diminished, due to the fixed cooldown on Holy Shock. Since Holy Shock is our most reliable and efficient source of gaining HP now we will want to be casting it on every cooldown.

Unless we completely ignore casting Holy Shock (I'm not saying this is effective at all) haste will have a plateau-ing values, and should be considered as such.

#32 Naronas

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 03:36 AM

Unless I'm missing something, how are you finding it more mana efficient to have only one/two "dependable" sources of Holy Power (from Holy Shock, and Crusader Strike if you count it)? Wouldn't it be more efficient to have a 100% chance to generate a charge of Holy Power when you Divine Light or Flash of Light?

It seems to me that if you have 3 points in ToR, you're essentially gaining a 2.5k HP heal (with no spell power) per cast of DL/FoL on your Beacon target, but when you have one point, you only have a 33% chance to gain that 2.5k HP heal, which, in the long run, turns out only being worth 742 HP per DL/FoL.


I have very rarely had to use more then a HL on the tank. As I said, my suggestion is nothing but a starter spec with floater points, they can be moved around to choice. Also, I worded that badly, the spec recommended by OP IS without a doubt more mana efficient then mine, in the case you need to DL/FoL your tank often. However, the recommended core spec is NOT one that I see many progression pallys using, especially post ToR nerf. Many of them drop the points in Conviction, also, I disagree with not putting 2/2 EJ as core spec, it provides more positioning flexibility as well as more mana regen due to less misses (SoI/judgement). The effectiveness of ToR comes down to the amount of time spent casting DL/FoL on tank to determine usefulness. If it is not often, you will undoubtedly get more through put putting those 2 points elsewhere.

#33 aggixx

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 03:43 AM

Although haste may have the highest HPS value of all out secondary stats, there still is a point where its value is diminished, due to the fixed cooldown on Holy Shock. Since Holy Shock is our most reliable and efficient source of gaining HP now we will want to be casting it on every cooldown.

Unless we completely ignore casting Holy Shock (I'm not saying this is effective at all) haste will have a plateau-ing values, and should be considered as such.


Did some quick math in an excel spreadsheet to find this "plateau":

NewCastTime = BaseCastTime * ( ( 1 + HasteRating / ( RatingConversion * 100 ) ) ^ -1 )

A haste rating value of 1494 would put the GCD at 1.384615 seconds, and HL/DL at 2.307692 seconds. This would allow you to Holy Shock, put in two HLs or DLs and then holy shock again (total time taken of 6.000000 seconds).

This doesn't include calculation of haste effects, anyone know how to incorporate that in?

Will edit new calculations in if I figure this out before someone else does.

PS. Haste rating will always benefit the ticking speed of HR, so it wouldn't be a hard cap, just a soft cap.

Edit: As far as I discovered, haste effects are simply applied after haste rating (CastTimewithHaste * (1+Percentincrease))

From that, here are the haste values (assuming 9% JotP, 3% SoL, 5% raid buff) you need to fit different combos of GCD spells and HLs/DLs in between your holy shocks:

HS + 2 DLs: 0 rating
HS + 2 GCDs + 1 DL: 0 rating
HS + 1 GCD + 2 DLs: 2350 rating

HS + 3 DLs seems to be impossible, at a rating of ~4875

#34 Naronas

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 04:01 AM

PS. Haste rating will always benefit the ticking speed of HR, so it wouldn't be a hard cap, just a soft cap.


Each haste plateau also increases the HPS and HPM of HR as well.

#35 Nodrak

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 05:07 AM

The haste plateaus are not someting simple like "When the cast time of HS+2HL reaches x seconds, do this". With our basic haste from talents HS + 3HL is already better then HS+2HL. The only time it is not, is when you add an additional spell in the rotation, such as a LoD/WoG/Judgment/HR. There even exists a haste rating where using Holy Shock is a reduction in HPS and HPM, but this haste value is too high for standard gear based haste to reach, only under haste cooldown situations.

#36 Jaybird

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 07:00 AM

Since Beacon heals don't proc our Mastery shield, has anyone experimented with focus-healing the tank *without* beacon and moving beacon around to other party / raid members taking damage? I know someone mentioned moving beacon each time he cast a DL on anyone, but I'm sceptical of having no heals on the tank (I'm not raiding yet, just 5-man so single healer) for 1 GCD + 1 DL.

Basic strategy would be HL on tank, move beacon around and HS on CD. As mentioned before, beacon glyph would work nicely for this strategy

#37 Pumpty

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 10:15 AM

I'm also of the feeling that at this moment in time crit is highly undervalued and haste overvalued due to paper statistics on HPM/HPS.

I've rarely found myself in a situation whereby someone could have been saved due to haste. Wrath was slightly different as we spent a high proportion of our time focused on 1 or 2 spells without much utility, but now things have changed and our proportion of instant cast heals nearly outweigh our cast timed heals. Furthermore at this moment in time in I simply can't afford to spam casting spells. For that reason I find haste more of a luxury that will probably be more beneficial later on for fine tuning. Right now, hate on me all you like, I'm reforging haste for crit.

I have found myself getting frustrated that people have over twice the HP and I am hitting similar HPS that I was in Wrath. More importantly I really value and appreciate crits, because more often than not they'll save me mana. Crits served relatively no purpose in wrath due to overhealing, but that's certainly not happening to me anymore. Healing is so much more cautious and calculated, and really doesn't feel like the light bombing it used to be. So why haste? Not to mention holy shock crits, Power Infusion is a beautiful fight changing proc. Give me heavy raid damage while I'm sitting on 3HP and a power infusion proc ticking down and I'll not break a sweat!

#38 Nodrak

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 02:11 PM

I'm also of the feeling that at this moment in time crit is highly undervalued and haste overvalued due to paper statistics on HPM/HPS.


If you look around, you can see some parses from raids. They tend to be pretty varied right now, but it is fairly safe to assume that Holy Radiance will be around 20-40 % of our healing on AoE fights. It is also fairly safe to assume that protector of the innocent will be at least 20% as well. The contribution from our normal heals will be only around 20% as well, with beacon and others filling the rest.

As per the OP, holy radiance gains 10% efficiency per 10% haste. 10% haste is about 7.14% crit. If holy radiance is 30% of your healing, 10% haste would be a 3% increase in efficiency from just Holy Radiance. The crit on the other hand would increase your total efficiency of all spells by about 3.57%. Then consider that haste would give a 10% gain to HPS for all spells, while crit would give 3.57%. Then consider the Protector of the innocent implications. 10 man will see less powerful Holy Radiance, so it is not always so clear.

The only thing going against Haste is that GoAK only lasts for 5 heals.

#39 Klutch

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 03:15 PM

Since Beacon heals don't proc our Mastery shield, has anyone experimented with focus-healing the tank *without* beacon and moving beacon around to other party / raid members taking damage? I know someone mentioned moving beacon each time he cast a DL on anyone, but I'm sceptical of having no heals on the tank (I'm not raiding yet, just 5-man so single healer) for 1 GCD + 1 DL.

Basic strategy would be HL on tank, move beacon around and HS on CD. As mentioned before, beacon glyph would work nicely for this strategy


I've experimented with this and don't feel comfortable with it.

Like you, I'm still running 5-man dungeons, almost all random. Perhaps in a more predictable environment (like a guild run with knowledgeable players) I would employ this but the lack of experienced players has almost made it necessary for me to keep a constant stream of heals on the tank. Then again if everyone knows what they're doing, why even bother? Chock that under personal preference I suppose. For me, I like to keep things as simple as possible.

I like the double heal effect Beacon offers when targeting the tank, I often will go OOM on some pulls (mostly due to ignorant players) and like having the insurance of A.) Tank is getting healed, regardless of what its for. and B.) If I need a targeted heal to count, I know it will have a little extra on top. This method makes the most sense to me, it's something I'm comfortable with and most importantly, it's working.

I feel this ties into what others have mentioned, how crit is still sort of up for debate as far as its priority. I will say that due to the OOM issues I'm having (which are rightfully not so much game related but really me learning), I'm finding Spirit to be my most reliable stat. This consistently saves me, and keeps me going the last 15% of a boss fight. Once I acquire better gear, and a solid rotation, I'm sure I'll round out my crit and haste in exchange for it.

#40 Jaybird

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 04:55 PM

... lack of experienced players has almost made it necessary for me to keep a constant stream of heals on the tank...


Yes, this is what I mean - the heals stay on the tank, but the beacon moves to whichever DPS is taking damage (I made a mouseover beacon cast macro). I've been trying this out today and for 5-man randoms it was working really well even with aggro-mad mages.

HoPo generation is pretty slow, but I found being able to just HL / HS spam the tank and not worry about mana made for way fewer "oh shit" moments




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