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[Holy]Cataclysm Holy Compendium (4.0.6)


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#41 Papapaint

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 05:06 PM

If you look around, you can see some parses from raids. They tend to be pretty varied right now, but it is fairly safe to assume that Holy Radiance will be around 20-40 % of our healing on AoE fights. It is also fairly safe to assume that protector of the innocent will be at least 20% as well. The contribution from our normal heals will be only around 20% as well, with beacon and others filling the rest.

As per the OP, holy radiance gains 10% efficiency per 10% haste. 10% haste is about 7.14% crit. If holy radiance is 30% of your healing, 10% haste would be a 3% increase in efficiency from just Holy Radiance. The crit on the other hand would increase your total efficiency of all spells by about 3.57%. Then consider that haste would give a 10% gain to HPS for all spells, while crit would give 3.57%. Then consider the Protector of the innocent implications. 10 man will see less powerful Holy Radiance, so it is not always so clear.

The only thing going against Haste is that GoAK only lasts for 5 heals.


Here's a log from our Magmaw 25 kill this week to back this up:

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

After poking around on there, I feel fairly comfortable saying that mastery is certainly a much weaker stat than haste in most of the common raiding situations. So far, Mastery is near-useless compared to haste on Magmaw, Chimaeron, Omnitron, Halfus, and Valion/Therona. If I were to prioritize mastery, I would be sacrificing around 6% haste for roughly 2,000 HP shields on Divine Light targets. I can't see any evidence that the beacon target is also affected by a shield, so it really does seem like almost a waste, since most of my shields will be significantly smaller.

In addition, I was able to comfortable CS 17 times that fight and still end up on top of the charts (this is post-nerf). Crusader strike is an extremely cheap, reliable way to generate HP and potentially regain mana as well. In my experience, a majority of the fights so far tend to be periods of high damage or "emergency" healing, with long phases of light healing to encourage regeneration. This may change in heroics, but I see no reason not to take advantage of those phases with a few CS hits.

Compare it to beacon-swapping, and it's significantly more mana-efficient with the same (better, because you can still heal a non-beacon target with HL and take advantage of beacon) results.

Played properly, we're still by far the most mana-efficient healing class in the game, and we need to be taking advantage of that.

#42 Naronas

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 07:06 PM

I'm also of the feeling that at this moment in time crit is highly undervalued and haste overvalued due to paper statistics on HPM/HPS.


The reason crit is a bad healer stat is it is completely random. Yes, it procs IoL, but would the tank have been better off having a 30% chance to get the right sized critcial heals, or getting ALL his heals .1 seconds faster? If you are stacking crit, unless you can guarantee 100% crit, you are leaving your healing up to chance. If you're keeping Conviction up, you have enough crit. Also, last time I ran parses, mastery actually out values crit by a long shot.

#43 Pumpty

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 07:46 PM

The reason crit is a bad healer stat is it is completely random. Yes, it procs IoL, but would the tank have been better off having a 30% chance to get the right sized critcial heals, or getting ALL his heals .1 seconds faster? If you are stacking crit, unless you can guarantee 100% crit, you are leaving your healing up to chance. If you're keeping Conviction up, you have enough crit. Also, last time I ran parses, mastery actually out values crit by a long shot.


In this expansion, to me, crit has moved from chance to utility, and I think that's the point I'm trying to make. I don't use my crits on the basis of hopefully they'll keep the tank alive, rather, if I get a proc or a crit heal that gives me assurance or saves me mana throughout an encounter then it's good. A crit on DL for example is almost the value of 2 normal DLs, sure the crit happening is based on chance but if/when it does happen that's an extra heal I don't need to cast and thus mana saved. Whereas in Wrath that would be an overheal and completely redundant/lost, a 40k crit on a health pool of 140k matters.

I realise for theory this is hard to evaluate, which is why I said on paper haste seems a better stat. I'm going to try stacking haste over crit for a while and see how it compares anyway, but I just feel with the pace healing has at the moment crits give you the utility to decide as opposed to giving you a statistically false sense of assurance like they used to.

All in all hPala to me has become less about spamming and more about making choices, and I think that carries across the board in healing. I just feel that at present crit supports that mentality more than haste does, because healing doesn't feel like a sustained action but rather small burst reactions right now. I'm not going to judge without knowing though, which is why I'll switch haste and see how it works in practise for me.

#44 Kelethin

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 08:29 PM

In this expansion, to me, crit has moved from chance to utility, and I think that's the point I'm trying to make. I don't use my crits on the basis of hopefully they'll keep the tank alive, rather, if I get a proc or a crit heal that gives me assurance or saves me mana throughout an encounter then it's good. A crit on DL for example is almost the value of 2 normal DLs, sure the crit happening is based on chance but if/when it does happen that's an extra heal I don't need to cast and thus mana saved. Whereas in Wrath that would be an overheal and completely redundant/lost, a 40k crit on a health pool of 140k matters.

I realise for theory this is hard to evaluate, which is why I said on paper haste seems a better stat. I'm going to try stacking haste over crit for a while and see how it compares anyway, but I just feel with the pace healing has at the moment crits give you the utility to decide as opposed to giving you a statistically false sense of assurance like they used to.

All in all hPala to me has become less about spamming and more about making choices, and I think that carries across the board in healing. I just feel that at present crit supports that mentality more than haste does, because healing doesn't feel like a sustained action but rather small burst reactions right now. I'm not going to judge without knowing though, which is why I'll switch haste and see how it works in practise for me.


Crit can't be considered Utility simply because of its randomness. It can go off at any time. You keep making references to WoLK and over healing, well the same still applies in this expansion...its just less noticeable. For arguments sake Ill use a very basic example. You Cast a 15k DL heal on a tank with 85% health and it takes them to almost full health. Now you do the exact same thing again and it crits. You have now just "wasted" that crit to over healing. Sure you are looking at it from the opposite side of the spectrum, but its the same principle. If the tank is at a lower health then the crit heal is more noticeable but when you really put aside what is seen on your screen and focus on what the Math behind the game proves(as so many people here have very kindly done the leg work on) Crit just falls behind by a pretty substantial margin.

#45 Naronas

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 10:47 PM

In this expansion, to me, crit has moved from chance to utility, and I think that's the point I'm trying to make. I don't use my crits on the basis of hopefully they'll keep the tank alive, rather, if I get a proc or a crit heal that gives me assurance or saves me mana throughout an encounter then it's good. A crit on DL for example is almost the value of 2 normal DLs, sure the crit happening is based on chance but if/when it does happen that's an extra heal I don't need to cast and thus mana saved. Whereas in Wrath that would be an overheal and completely redundant/lost, a 40k crit on a health pool of 140k matters.

I realise for theory this is hard to evaluate, which is why I said on paper haste seems a better stat. I'm going to try stacking haste over crit for a while and see how it compares anyway, but I just feel with the pace healing has at the moment crits give you the utility to decide as opposed to giving you a statistically false sense of assurance like they used to.

All in all hPala to me has become less about spamming and more about making choices, and I think that carries across the board in healing. I just feel that at present crit supports that mentality more than haste does, because healing doesn't feel like a sustained action but rather small burst reactions right now. I'm not going to judge without knowing though, which is why I'll switch haste and see how it works in practise for me.


Haste increases your mana regen as well. More haste, faster swing speed. More SoI mana. The fact is you dont want to be leaving your healing up to chance. Not up to procs OR hoping the crit saves them. Haste gives a constant benefit that is quantifiable, measurable, and reliable. Crit is none of those things. Maybe one night you crit 20% at 35% crit chance, the next night you crit 50%. Well your gear is crit dependent, so if you get some bad RNG, your healing is now down the tube for the night.

#46 Puppytoes

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 11:15 PM

You may want to add Divine Plea to the list of cooldowns along with something about the usage.

It seems to me that with the reduced mana returns (10% or 15% glyphed), increased cooldown and still very large 50% heal reduction for 15sec Divine plea's usefulness is likely very situational now.

#47 Shldnhearth

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Posted 18 December 2010 - 03:31 AM

You may want to add Divine Plea to the list of cooldowns along with something about the usage.

It seems to me that with the reduced mana returns (10% or 15% glyphed), increased cooldown and still very large 50% heal reduction for 15sec Divine plea's usefulness is likely very situational now.


With the decreased cooldown of Hand of Sacrifice and the absurd amount of self healing we have with talents, I find myself using Divine Plea in combination with Hand of Sacrifice almost on cooldown. I've yet to have problems doing so. Obviously I don't use Plea during times of really heavy damage but using Hand of Sacrifice on the tank during Plea makes it far less situational and very useful.

#48 Mitranim

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Posted 18 December 2010 - 11:47 AM

A lot of people here are advocating crit or mastery as a preferrable secondary stat. I think it's time to end this insanity.

Pros of crit are: more healing per mana / holy power if not overhealing and more IoL procs on average.
Cons of crit: unreliability. This is exactly what you try to avoid in PvE: a bad luck streak can (and will) render your stat useless.

Pros of mastery are: bigger shields on targets of your direct heals / LoD.
Cons of mastery: mostly useless outside tank spamming with HLs/DLs. Doesn't proc off beacon which usually accounts for most of your tank healing. Most of shields on raid members are wasted. Also, World of Logs doesn't account for Illuminated Healing.

Pros of haste: lesser GCD and cast time on all spells, more HPS/HPM on Holy Radiance (bigger increase than crit). More maximum throughput (bigger increase than crit).
Cons of haste: increases maximum mana consumption without increasing HPM (except for Holy Radiance).


The hint is that Blizzard didn't really deliver the healing environment where you can let people drop lower to heal more efficiently and allow your crit to kick in. Right now you're struggling to keep people alive while conserving mana. During low damage periods you want to top people off with weak heals. Сriticals would result in overheal, but haste helps. Also, you need to judge as often as possible, and haste helps not pushing back your judge / holy shock. And finally when things get tougher, you need throughput to use mana-efficient spells as much as possible. Crit doesn't always have more HPM, and haste has indirect effects on mana efficiency which you should keep in mind (and a very direct effect on HR).

#49 malthrin

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Posted 18 December 2010 - 03:18 PM

While healing is more of a subjective discipline than DPS, it's still best if our theorycrafting has some grounding in reality. If you're going to make assertions about stat values, please do it on the basis of logs of actual raid combat rather than on purely speculative situations.
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#50 Sethronu

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Posted 18 December 2010 - 09:18 PM

As for Holy Radiance being up to 40% of our total healing done... uh. Maybe if the only spell you ever use outside of HR cooldowns is Holy Light, that could happen. In reality, HR is typically 10-15% of our healing done (at least the way I play, anyway), and since Holy Priests are by far superior 'blanket' healers than a Paladin can ever be, I see absolutely no reason to consider this aspect of our class as important. Sure, Holy Radiance is a nice spell which provides a solid boost to our throughput - but it is not a staple spell the way PoH is for a Priest.

On topic of Crit being random... this is kind of like claiming, "Crit is RNG so it's a bad DPS stat", or "avoidance is RNG so it's a bad tanking stat". On a large enough sample size, over a course of a boss fight, you'll get roughly the amount of Crit % your charsheet shows; and with the way raid damage / healing / health pools currently are, even Divine Light Crits rarely overheal if you target them correctly. In my full Crit gear and with DL as my primary heal, I average perhaps 30% overhealing total, most of which comes from PotI, Beacon of Light, and ironically, Holy Radiance. The point I'm trying to make, I don't view Crit as a pure throughput stat - rather a mana efficiency stat that also helps my throughput. I guess it's fairly silly trying to argue this any further since people advocating Haste seem very much set in their opinions, with the numbers of calculations to back it up, but I just feel people arguing against Crit so strongly are being somewhat misleading, as it is most certainly a valid and effective playstyle, and I'm convinced it'll remain so at the very least until full T11/heroic gear levels where mana efficiency might become somewhat less important.

Bottomline, you can't just boil down every aspect of healing to numbers and claim that since X is higher HPS, it is a better stat; it's about as misleading as counting on Divine Plea being used every 2 minutes for full duration - that just doesn't happen in an actual raid.

#51 iatnuolas

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Posted 18 December 2010 - 11:58 PM

As for Holy Radiance being up to 40% of our total healing done... uh. Maybe if the only spell you ever use outside of HR cooldowns is Holy Light, that could happen. In reality, HR is typically 10-15% of our healing done (at least the way I play, anyway),


If you don't mind, may I ask you what your healing "rotation" is? (from "at least the way I play, anyway", part)

In the couple fights that I've done - Magmaw, Omintron, Maloriak and Argaloth, I've found the most mana efficient way to heal is (after the Holy Light "nerf") a priority system weighing single target damage versus AoE damage and the duration of the period of damage. The spells that I'm prioritizing for heavy single target damage (main tank healing, for example) are: Beacon, Word of Glory(3), Holy Shock, Crusader Strike, and Divine Light. Multi-target goes something like: Beacon, AW+DF, Light of Dawn(3), Holy Radiance, Holy Shock and Crusader Strike.

I guess what I'm trying to ask is, does that style of healing seem appropriate for raiding in Cataclysm? I'm having no problem sitting at the top of my guild meters over our Shamans and Druids, but I just don't know if there's anything that I could do to improve my style (for example, using LoD(3) instead of WoG(3) for a large Beacon heal). Usually on a fight like Argaloth, LoD and HR are coming out to be about 20-30/30-40% of my healing done.

#52 Parodia

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Posted 19 December 2010 - 05:01 AM

The problem with crit is that it's unreliable. If you're stacking crit over haste (with regards to gearing/reforging choices - I'm not implying that people are gemming full crit), you're hoping that RNG doesn't screw you over when you need more throughput and your heals suddenly don't crit for ten seconds. Haste is always going to be there. Even if the averaged out throughput, point-for-point was identical, haste is simply reliable.

As a DPS, reliability over a ten second interval isn't generally important (don't take this too out of context - I know about having to burn down adds quickly or something along those lines); it's how things average out that matters the most. The problem with healing is that our throughput is something that matters on very short time intervals, and that's not a situation that I feel comfortable relying on RNG for. It's why most healers hate throughput procs and love regen procs, but why at the same time controllable abilities like DF and AW are still so strong.

Edited for destroying the English language in a couple of places.

#53 Papapaint

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Posted 19 December 2010 - 08:28 AM

As for Holy Radiance being up to 40% of our total healing done... uh. Maybe if the only spell you ever use outside of HR cooldowns is Holy Light, that could happen. In reality, HR is typically 10-15% of our healing done (at least the way I play, anyway), and since Holy Priests are by far superior 'blanket' healers than a Paladin can ever be, I see absolutely no reason to consider this aspect of our class as important. Sure, Holy Radiance is a nice spell which provides a solid boost to our throughput - but it is not a staple spell the way PoH is for a Priest.


Holy Radiance being 40% of healing done is a bit too much, but on any fight with heavy AoE, 30% is not unrealistic. It's not about "being a blanket healer," it's the fact that at the moment, NO class has particularly powerful AoE healing abilities. Holy Radiance is quite strong, and should be used very frequently, and works very well in conjunction with Divine Favor and AW. If you're seeing 10-15%, you're likely not using it enough or your haste is fairly low.

In addition, we've shifted quickly to being the new raid healers--or at least the most efficient raid healers, mana-wise. No class at the moment has the same ability to spot heal the way we do with WoG and LoD.

On topic of Crit being random... this is kind of like claiming, "Crit is RNG so it's a bad DPS stat", or "avoidance is RNG so it's a bad tanking stat". On a large enough sample size, over a course of a boss fight, you'll get roughly the amount of Crit % your charsheet shows; and with the way raid damage / healing / health pools currently are, even Divine Light Crits rarely overheal if you target them correctly.


Crit isn't bad. No one is arguing that crit is "bad". It is, however, a "bad" choice to make OVER haste. Whether it works out on paper or not, you need to be able to judge how much you can heal at a given point in time in order to appropriately decide who to heal. I agree that crits aren't wasted, but being able to cast divine light .1 seconds faster helps me understand when to use the spell, how effective it will be, who to use it on, and what followup I need to make. Having 1% crit instead leaves me in the exact same position, but with a slower spell that will 1/100 times be more effective than I'm gauging it to be.

This isn't anecdotal, it's healing's playstyle. Crit is an awesome way to conserve mana, but as a stat, it is unreliable and can not be guaranteed when you need it most, while haste can. You compared us to DPS, but that's radically unfair. If a DPS is relying on crits to increase their DPS, they'll simply do less DPS. If a healer is relying on crits to heal a tank, they're going to run into streaks that allow the tank to dip dangerously low.

In addition, haste increases your ability to Judge, emergency heal, and even Crusader Strike by freeing up time that would otherwise be spent casting.

Bottomline, you can't just boil down every aspect of healing to numbers and claim that since X is higher HPS, it is a better stat; it's about as misleading as counting on Divine Plea being used every 2 minutes for full duration - that just doesn't happen in an actual raid.


I agree, but we need to have the foresight to control what we can.

#54 Nodrak

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Posted 19 December 2010 - 09:25 AM

In regards to Holy Radiance, I just used the range that I saw from the parses of bosses. Some even had shaman with 75%+ from Healing Rains + Earth-living. We need to know how HR diminishes with extra players to determine the maximum power. We also need to determine the effect range has on the returns to find the average effectiveness. Here are some numbers on a 6 target Holy Radiance, with 5500 spell-power, 1000 haste rating, and buffs, bringing it to ~27%. Crit and mastery are not factored, crit will be a linear increase to everything, baring IoL procs. I also calculated the effective% of the healing that mastery would boost.

Healing to 6 Targets
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Single Target
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Spirit is more valuable then Haste for single target encounters where you can upgrade from HL to DL with extra mana. Haste will still be a larger increase to HL HPS per point then spirit from using DL, but at a cost of extra mana, this is a rough estimate though. I will check the multi target balance later, when I finish adding mastery and crit into the picture, as well as some more adding to the first post soon, but I have to head out right now.

#55 Dragaen

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Posted 19 December 2010 - 10:37 AM

Gems
Socket bonuses appears to be fairly weak, with the best being Int, so lets compare that. They appears to be +10 per socket, +20 per meta. Basic blue Int gem is 40 int, with the hybrids being 20/20, meaning that hitting this socket bonus is trading 10 int for 20 of a stat. This rules out a crit gem already, and likely Mastery as well. Haste will be worth it for pure HPS, but spirit will only be more mana on a certain fight length. We will end up needing 2 Yellow gems for the Ember meta, which naturally leads to Int/Haste, and possibly Int/Mastery.

Meta Sockets
[Ember Shadowspirit Diamond]
[Revitalizing Shadowspirit Diamond]

Red Sockets
[Brilliant Inferno Ruby]

Blue Sockets
[Purified Demonseye]
[Sparkling Ocean Sapphire]
[Zen Dream Emerald]
[Timeless Demonseye]

Yellow Sockets
[Reckless Ember Topaz]
[Artful Ember Topaz]
[Potent Ember Topaz]
[Quick Amberjewel]
[Zen Dream Emerald]
[Fractured Amberjewel]
[Smooth Amberjewel]


My question is, what is actually best.? Int is very nice now at the beginning I think but how much different does +40 spirit?
Or should you go hybrid and go with 20/20?
What do you guys think is the best gems for us atm.

#56 LorDC

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Posted 19 December 2010 - 11:41 AM

It was shown that int gem is superior to spirit one even in terms of (effective) mana regeneration. Not to mention SP and crit gains.
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#57 Seteh

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Posted 19 December 2010 - 12:49 PM

One thing that could be added to the guide is how much spirit to aim for. This would help new Holy Paladins determine how much spirit is "enough". After which, one could reforge the excess Spirit into something more beneficial (Haste or Mastery*) in order to give a better increase in your overall healing effectiveness.

*Assuming you find the absorption shield helpful to your healing.

#58 Mastri

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Posted 19 December 2010 - 01:00 PM

My question is, what is actually best.? Int is very nice now at the beginning I think but how much different does +40 spirit?
Or should you go hybrid and go with 20/20?
What do you guys think is the best gems for us atm.


Int provides larger heals, which leads to greater mana efficiency through HL spam becoming more viable. Also provides more mana regeneration through Divine Plea.

Also i cant think of any situation where getting a hybrid would outweigh the benefits of the 40 int gem, no socket bonus would be worth it from what i have seen so far.

#59 Mastri

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Posted 19 December 2010 - 01:07 PM

One thing that could be added to the guide is how much spirit to aim for. This would help new Holy Paladins determine how much spirit is "enough". After which, one could reforge the excess Spirit into something more beneficial (Haste or Mastery*) in order to give a better increase in your overall healing effectiveness.

*Assuming you find the absorption shield helpful to your healing.


Personally i have never found theres a need to refoge for spirit, and deffinatly gemming isnt worth it. I use a pure haste build on my paladin, and i am yet to have problems with mana efficiency, i find leaving spirit on gear is the best option, if gear doesnt have haste on it there will be another secondary stat which you can reforge to haste, and if it does have haste then you cant reforge to haste, so its better to leave it as spirit. If armour has for example haste and crit then i reforge to spirit in that situation only, as you cant reforge to haste if its already on the gear.

#60 iatnuolas

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Posted 19 December 2010 - 03:20 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't a healing rotation that prioritizes Divine Light, Holy Shock and Crusader Strike have a higher throughput versus one that prioritizes spamming Holy Light and Holy Shock on cooldown (at the cost of mana efficiency)?


Healing to 6 Targets
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Single Target
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Does your spreadsheet calculate the 15% base mana restoration every 8 seconds from judging Seal of Insight, or an estimated amount of SoI ppm (I can't really be exact since I don't know the PPM of SoI, but I would roughly [roughly] estimate that you'd see on average about 3-4 procs per 20 seconds, turning out to be 9-12 per minute, or around 8903-11,871 mana per minute)? If it doesn't, I think this would help to "normalize" the Divine Light HPM.




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