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[Cataclysm] Beast Mastery (4.3)


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#1 Nooska

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Posted 15 December 2010 - 05:18 PM

This is the thread for Beastmaster hunter discussion for Cataclysm.
This post has "borrowed" the layout and common information from Esoth's Survival thread, so credit to Esoth for all common information and the layout. The gemming and enchanting section has also been copied from Esoth's survival guide as there is no reason to redo good work.
I have discovered that parts of this guide have been copy pasted (even including my typos) without reference or accreditation.
The work here can be freely used provided a reference (link to this thread) and proper accreditation is given.

I don't mind the work being used (I consider it a nod), I do mind when others take credit for the work.

=Damage Abilities=
Kill Command (KC)
Our primary nuke ability. You want to use this as often as possible.
Serpent Sting (SrS)
Since Cobra Shot refreshes this, you will only have to apply it once per target in most cases. It has low DPS but a very high DPCT (theoretically infinite, with cobra shot refreshing it).
Arcane Shot (AS)
This is focus dump ability. No cooldown, 25 focus (22 with 3/3 Efficiency).
Cobra Shot (CoS)
Always use this in place of Steady Shot. Generates 9 focus and refreshes Serpent Sting.
Hunter's Mark (HM)
AP bonus, always put this up before combat if possible.
Multi Shot (MS)
Together with Explosive Trap our AoE abilities.
Explosive Trap (ExT)
It ticks every 2 seconds, 10 times total for AoE fire damage.
Immolation Trap (ImT)
Right now it looks like this cannot crit and flat out does less damage on single target than explosive trap
Kill Shot (KS)
Not quite as strong as it used to be (150% weapon damage, down from 200%) but still quite powerful. One of its main benefits is that it costs no focus.

=Aspects=
In Cataclysm we have two important aspects during fights: Hawk and Fox. For PVE, the primary benefit of each is that Hawk provides additional AP and Fox allows you to cast Cobra Shot while moving. Ideally, you will not have to use Fox and can do all of your movement while casting instant shot casts (everything but Cobra Shot) and in between auto shot casts. In practice, there will probably be times when you want to move while not having the focus for instant cast shots. Aspects are on a separate global cooldown (GCD) from other abilities, so you can swap between Hawk and Fox without losing a GCD for damage abilities.

=Rotation / Priority=
The most basic priority for single targets will be something like this:
1. If your pet is on the target, Kill Command
2. If the mob is going to live long enough, apply Serpent Sting.
3. If mob is below 20% health, Kill Shot
4. If you have enough focus to cast Kill command on CD, Arcane Shot
5. Cobra Shot

In a given 6 second cycle you should be able to fit 1 Kill Command, 1 Arcane Shot and 2 Cobra Shots with any excess time from shortened casttime going to extra arcane shots over time as focus allows and additional Cobrashots.


=Cooldowns=
Bestial Wrath

Our shortest length "big" cooldown, it lasts for 10 seconds. The talent Longevity and the Glyph, brings the cooldown down to 70 seconds (1.17 minutes). The primary benefit of Bestial Wrath is that it reduces the focus cost of all our focus costing abilities by 50%. In addition it increases the pets damage done by 20% and with The Beast Within it also increases the hunters damage by 10% for the duration.
During Bestial Wrath you do not want to use Cobra Shot to regenerate focus, since the only benefit to Cobra Shot is 10% more damage. You want to make sure you have focus before using BW. During a BW you should be able to get off 2 Kill Commands and 6-7 Arcane shots, possibly using Fervor if you are low on focus before you use BW. BW should not be used while under Rapid Fire or external haste effects unless not using it will cause you to lose 1 or more BW's over the course of the fight.

Fervor

Fervor has the same base cooldown as Bestial wrath, 2 minutes, however it is not affected by Longevity. Fervor instantly grants both us and our pet 50 focus and has no other strings attached. This is best used when both hunter and pet can benefit the most from it, but most often the usage will depend on the hunters focus need.

Focus Fire

Focus Fire is a personal haste boost that lasts 20 second and is on a 15 second Cooldown. How much haste we get is dependant on our pet. Frenzy stacks on our pet once per basic attack (3 second cooldown) to a maximum of 5 stacks. Focus Fire consumes these stacks, and grant us 3% haste for each stack thus consumed. The build-up time for Frenzy is 15 seconds of pet-on-the-target time, meaning that we will have a near constant 15% haste bonus. Focus Fire should be used when full, in theory on cooldown, but with the 4.3 change to duration we have a little leeway now.The exception is just before a BW, as the frenzy stacks on the pet increase the attack speed of the pet by up to 30% (at 5 stacks) and we don't benefit massively from the haste during BW per above. This increased attackspeed for the pet translates directly into more damage from the pets autoattacks.

Rapid Fire

A 5 minute cooldown that increases our ranged attack speed by 40% (50% if glyphed) for 15 seconds. Together with Focus Fire, this should see our Cobrashot at a 1.0-1.2 second cast time. Even at this casttime Arcane Shot wins over Cobra Shot Shot in DPCT, so during Rapid Fire you should stick yo your regular rotation casting Cobra Shots between your Kill Commands and adding any arcane shots possible. Rapid Fire should not be used whiler under Bestial Wrath or external haste effects like Bloodlust since we would then waste a lot of the haste effect.

Ancient Hysteria / Bloodlust

Ancient Hysteria / Bloodlust / Heroism / Time Warp.
As BM hunters we can provide this otherwise external haste buff by bringing a Core Hound. Ancient Hysteria (or one of the other names) buffs the haste of the entire party or raid by 30% for 40 seconds. This is slightly less than Rapid Fire, but should still see our Cobra Shot casttime approach the GCD. Under AH maintain your regular priority, as above under RF.

=Talents=
Beast Mastery Talents

Improved Kill Command - Required. Kill Command is our bread and butter, so a 10% increased chance to crit with it is a no-brainer.
One with Nature - Required. AotH has been buffed to provide 2.700 AP. Each point in OwN is now a straight 351 AP increase with Animal handler and fully talented, OwN gives us 1053 AP (1158 AP when under the influence of BoM, TSA or AM).
Bestial Discipline - Recommended. Recommended if your pet is not getting the full benefit of Wild Hunt every time - additionally it is a better choice than the tier 2 utility talents for output.

Pathfinding - Not Recommended. Pathfinding provides a mounted speed increase of 10% which does not stack with the level 3 Guild Perk, Mount Up. Leaving Pathfinding at a miserable 4/8% speed increase to Aspect of the Pack/Cheetah.
Spirit Bond - Recommended. Not only does Spirit Bond provide a (small and passive) self heal, it increases the healing done on you (and your pet) by 10%. In the new environment where mana matters to your healers, this is a good investment - additionally there isn't a lot of choice at this point in the tree.
Frenzy - Required. Frenzy increases the attack speed of your pet by 6% for every basic attack (stacking to 30%), Frenzy can also be consumed by Focus Fire for hunter haste.
Improved Mend Pet - Optional. If your healers have time (and mana) to spare to keep your pet cleansed, this point doesn't provide a real benefit. If you are expected to keep your own pet alive and functional to spare the healers, the cleansing effect can be nice. With Mend Pet ticking every 2 seconds, 1 point here could easily be enough.

Cobra Strikes - Required. This talent directly increases the damage from your pet. Since we want to add as many arcane shots into the cycle as possible without delying Kill command, you should see this trigger quite often.
Fervor - Required. This talent unlocks Bestial Wrath, and is a pretty good ability in its own right-
Focus Fire - Required. This is our constant haste function, should be kept on CD except during BW and the first 15 seconds of a fight.

Longevity - Required. Reduces the CD of BW by 30%. Pet special abilities aren't that important, and neither is intimidation.
Killing Streak - Required. This reduces the focus cost and increases the damage done after 2 successive Kill Command Crits. The successive crits don't have to happen within the same combat.

Crouching Tiger, Hidden Chimera - Not Recommended. In a group or rading environment you should not be getting hit with anything that triggers this talent.
Bestial Wrath - Required. See the in depth workings above.
Ferocious Inspiration - Required. While the bufff can be provided by others, this talent is a prerequisit for Invigoration.

Kindred Spirits - Recommended. While the 10 extra focus may seem static, this allows us to build up our focus before unloading it through BW. 10 extra focus is almost 1 more Arcane Shot before needing to use Fervor (if at all)
The Beast Within - Required. This is the talent that grants the hunter the benefits described under Bestial Wrath above.
Invigoration - Required. 6 Focus everytime the pet crits on a basic attack (1 basic attack every 3 seconds), this is the talent that will let you use Arcane Shot more often.

Beast Mastery - Required. Unlike previously, the ability to bring exotic pets to a raid is now required to be a Beast Mastery hunter. The Exotic pets have some of the better raid buffs that can be missing. All exotic pets (except the Shale Spider) also gets 2 abilities to use, 2 of them have a channeled AoE attack.

Marksmanship Talents

Go for the Throat - Required. See the pet section for more details, but obtaining more focus for pets is now a worthwhile pursuit.
Efficiency - Optional. 3 focus reduction for Arcane Shot.
Rapid Killing - Not Recommended.

Sic 'Em! - Recommended. It can be recommended for the same reason as Go for the Throat. Has the potential to be very strong for BM due to mastery and Wild Hunt, dependant on the amount of Arcane shots you get out and your crit chance.
Improved Steady Shot - Not Recommended. Not worth using Steady Shot over Cobra Shot.
Careful Aim - Optional - Not very strong, and competes with Pathing in the Survival tree.

Survival Talents

Hunter vs. Wild - Not Recommended. Should only be considered if you find yourself consistently lacking health. Not worth it compared to the other options in any other scenario.
Pathing - Recommended. 3% haste for 3 talent points is not what I consider a strong talent, but it is, nonetheless, a good option - competes with Sic'Em and Careful Aim.
Improved Serpent Sting - Recommended. 5/10% increased crit chance for Serpent Sting is a good option.

Survival Tactics - Optional.
Trap Mastery - Optional.
Entrapment - Optional. Probably encounter specific for PVE.
Point of No Escape - Optional. Bosses will not trigger Frost Trap and the crit bonus now only affects you, so this talent is fairly weak.


Sample build:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft Not much room to change anything inthe BM tree. I have chosen to go for full Sic'Em in this sample build, and go for 1/3 Pathing as 2/2 ISrS. The 10% increased chance to crit for SrS is arguably more valuable than 2% haste, but is a matter of taste. The build has been changed from the previous sample build to include 3/3 OwN and 2/2 Sic'Em.


Glyphs

Recommended Prime Glyphs:
Kill Command - 3 focus cost reduction of KC
Kill Shot - effectively lets you do back to back Kill Shot
Arcane Shot - 12% Arcane Shot damage

Other Prime Glyphs (in alphabetical order):
Rapid Fire - +10% haste
Serpent Sting - 6% crit
Neither of these provide as much benefit as the above in a stand still fight.


Reccomended Major Glyphs:
Bestial Wrath - Reduces the cooldown of BW by 20 seconds (down to a total of 70 seconds with Longevity)

From a damage perspective, there are no other required major glyphs for every scenario, although Trap Launcher is recommended for any AoE situations (with Explosive Trap). As a BM hunter 2 other major glyphs do stick out intuitively - Mending and Misdirection. With glyph of Mending a tenacity pet can easily tank a mob for a short (or longer) while without requiring much, if any, attention from healers. A properly specced tank pet will be healed for 6k+ hps from mend pet alone in entry level (ilvl 346 blue) gear. With a 2 second cast to switch out your pet (equivalent of 1 lost Cobra Shot) and a taunt, you have a real "Oh snap" ability here.

Recommended Minor Glyphs:
Revive Pet - Should the worst happen and our pet die, we need to revive it. Revive is no longer reduced by talents, and is a (base) 10 second cast. Avoiding pushbacks during it is essential in the cases where we need our pet up and about. It is not possible to summon another pet if your current pet is dead.

=Pets=
Pets are a major source of damage for BM hunters. They inherit 100% of the hunter's hit, haste, and crit, and scale considerably from AP. All 3 pet types (Ferocity, Tenacity and Cunning) inherit the same AP scaling, so the only difference in the potential damage output is the pet talents. This means it is okay to bring a tenacity pet if the raidbuff it provides is needed, as you will only lose what the pet talents provide.

That being said, right now, Ferocity and Cunning pets are both close in theoretical damage and require more numbers before one becomes more preferable than the other. Ferocity has the advantage of Rabid and Call of the Wild, although the long cooldown and short duration of Call of the Wild lessen its value (though it is greater for BM than for the other 2 specs, thanks to Longevity). Cunning has decent talents in Feeding Frenzy, Roar of Recovery, and Owl's Focus, but Wolverine Bite is currently poor.

Ferocity: Hunter Pet Calculator - Wowhead (looks like There are a couple debatable points. First, the points in Bloodthirsty could go to Boar's Speed and / or Charge. I have opted to put them in Bloodthirsty because we as BM rely heavily on our pets (without them we have Arcane Shot and Cobra Shot),even after happiness has been removed the heal will help the pet stay alive in situations that might otherwise kill it.
The point in Charge coul also be put in Boars Speed. BS is nice but not required, likewise Charge will only affect the first attack in any given fight, so whether to opt for BS or Charge is a matter of taste, personally I prefer the increased movement speed at all times, especially because of the immobilization from charge which tends to make adds go out of sync with eachother in movement - not ideal in a raid environment at all.

Cunning: Hunter Pet Calculator - Wowhead
As BM we get to have more points that can be spent on specific damage increasing talents for a cunning pet. The main points in this tree would be Owl's Focus combined with Wild Hunt, as well as Feeding Frenzy. The point that went in Carrion Feeder pre 4.1 has been moved to 1/2 Cornered in this build, and 2/2 cornered could be worth it for some fights like Chimaeron.

=AoE=

Multi-Shot

Multi-Shot is our base AoE tool. It costs 40 focus and incurs a normal GCD as of 4.1. As BM we can couple Multishot with BW and fire them off at a cost of 20 focus, giving us 6 Multi-Shots back to back.

Explosive Trap

Explosive Trap is our other AoE ability. It has a small base damage (29 per tick) but with a 54.5% RAP coefficient it does a substantial amount of damage. It is also our most efficient ability by far, costing 0 focus if dropped in place or 20 focus with Trap Launcher (10 focus glyphed). Explosive Trap's major caveat is obviously that it requires the target(s) to stay in the targeted area for 20 seconds for full effect, making it impractical on some fights.

Chimaera / Worm

Beast Mastery hunters can bring exotic pets, and in AoE situations this means we can increase our damage by bringing a Worm or a Chimaera.
Burrow Attack

The Worm can channel an AoE attack called Burrow Attack. When this is used the pet burrows underground for 8 seconds dealing damage every second. Burrow attack does 11.52% of our RAP + 205 damage per second over 8 seconds, so at 10k RAP burrow attack does 1357 dps to each enemy in the attacks radius. Burrow Attack is on a 30 second cooldown.
Froststorm Breath

The Chimaera also gets a channled AoE attack, Froststorm Breath. FsB does less damage as a base since it does 11.52% of our RAP + 205 every 2 seconds over 8 seconds, so at 10k RAP FsB does 678.5 dps (half of Burrow Attack). Froststorm Breath, unlike Burrow Attack, does not have a cooldown, so if the AoE situation lasts more than 16 seconds, Froststorm Breath will do higher dps while AoE'ing.

=Stats=
I've used a roughly BIS with all / best raidbuffs enabled list to get these numbers, with the theory that we can derive some broader understanding of stats. For less generalized stat weights, it is recommended that you use your gear in Rivkah's DPS Analyzer or similar tool.

Relative stat values

Agility
Your best stat, by far, with the possible exception of hit. One agility provides 2 AP and 1/324.85 critical strike percent, before scaling. You get 5% extra from wearing all mail, 5% from raid buffs. The AP is again increased by 30% by Animal Handler, the passive BM benefit, and 10% from raid buffs. Agility is so much better than any secondary stat that some Wrath enchants that are pure agility come out significantly ahead of the 50 and 65 rating points in mastery, crit or haste that newer enchants give.
Hit
Gearing for the hit cap is generally a good idea. Ranged attacks have a 8% chance to miss against mobs 3 levels higher than us and each point of hit rating gives us 1/120.109%, so we need 961 hit to reach this, or 841 for draenei.
The consensus is that it is better to be slightly over than slightly under the hit cap
Attack Power
Raw attack power is going to be rare, but still exists for some enchants, Pure AP is the slightly better than crit/haste/mastery point for point.

Crit
Almost all abilities crit for 200% damage, or 206% damage with a . Some exceptions include Explosive Trap and Serpent Sting which uses spell crit damage (and crit chance) - 150%, or immolation trap which cannot crit.
Mastery
Mastery affects all damage done by our pet, including Kill Command, and each point of mastery increases pet damage by 1.7%. Mastery beats haste hands down.
Haste
Haste affects both the speed of your shots (cobra and auto) and your rate of focus regeneration. You need 128.057 haste rating to get 1% haste. Haste effects generally scale multiplicatively. If you have 32% haste from gear, 3% from Pathing, and Rapid Fire, a base casting time of X would now be X/1.32/1.03/1.4. Procs that increase haste rating will stack additively with your total haste rating value (32% in this example). Focus regeneration appears to be a base of 4 focus per second scaling multiplicatively with haste; i.e. 30% haste would be 4*1.3=5.2 fps. You will likely not see a huge increase in focus regen from upgrading gear. Haste is further devalued with the 2t13 bonus, as we will be using CoS a lot less.
Mastery or Haste?
First you should reforge to hit cap (961 rating if you are not a Draenei), as close as possible, from any of the other 3 secondary stats.
Haste/Mastery: Reforge Haste to Crit unless Mastery is significantly higher than haste (40-60% higher), then reforge Mastery to Crit.
Crit/Haste: Reforge Haste to Mastery
Crit/Mastery: Don't do anything

Enchants

Head: (Ramkahen Revered)
Shoulders: (Therazane Exalted) or Swiftsteel Inscription (Scribes only)
Cloak:
Chest:
Wrist: or Draconic Embossment - Agility (Leatherworkers only)
Gloves:
Legs:
Boots: (if not using . Movement speed is somewhat less powerful as a DPS increase in the age of Aspect of the Fox as well.)
Two-Hand Weapon:
Ranged: outperforms the others by a fair margin. Alternatively or

Nota Bene! The three enchants here that use Wrath of the Lich King mats are not cheap alternatives to Cataclysm enchants. They are on par with or superior to the Cataclysm alternatives.

Gems

Gem choices are fairly obvious now that our only viable meta gem is . Agility is more than twice as valuable as any secondary stat, so with superior quality gems the only socket bonuses worth picking up are those that give 20 agility or more. For example, the tier helmet and chest. Other sockets can safely be filled with with socket bonuses ignored.

#2 Duw

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 10:33 AM

Would you recommend delaying focus fire each time until you use KC? The idea behind is to ensure as many of our KCs as possible benefit from the 30% damage increase. I guess the question is whether 30% KC damage is greater than 5 seconds without the 15% haste buff.

#3 Nooska

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 11:17 AM

Would you recommend delaying focus fire each time until you use KC? The idea behind is to ensure as many of our KCs as possible benefit from the 30% damage increase. I guess the question is whether 30% KC damage is greater than 5 seconds without the 15% haste buff.

No I would not. Mainly because the question is based on false information in the original posting that somehow slipped my proofreading after typing it up.
Frenzy does not increase the damage the pet does, it increases the attack speed of the pet.

#4 ceelion22

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 01:32 PM

Should we include a section for racials?

It would provide which races have the "better" racials to compliment a BM hunter.

ie: Orcs have an AP boost as well as 5% increased pet dmg. BE's have Arcane Torrent which can (I believe) be macro'd to go off with Fervor for a total of 65 focus for one button. And so on and so forth.

#5 Excalin

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 02:31 PM

As I understand it even for Surv spec the serpent sting glyph is very weak and just 11 or so Arcane shots in a 5 minute fight make the arcane glyph the better choice. Seeing that BM doesn't get the same boost to its sting and we include Arcane Shot in every rotation and then spam it in our BW phase would it be safe to say that the Arcane Shot Glyph is the clear winner?

#6 Duw

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 03:45 PM

I'd imagine arcane glyph would be preferred, as it is used a lot more often in BM than in SV. Also, the serpent glyph will no longer benefit from using serpent spread multishot which is one of the arguments to use it for a survival spec. It's worth remembering, however, that the information that SV needing 10 arcane shots is based on the damage from a survival spec'd hunter who's mastery strengthens arcane shot.

Also, regarding my previous post - cheers for the correction :) glad at least it helped us find a mistype!

#7 Excalin

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 04:06 PM

It's worth remembering, however, that the information that SV needing 10 arcane shots is based on the damage from a survival spec'd hunter who's mastery strengthens arcane shot.


Mastery isn't a contention point because both shots in question should be effected the same percentage by it, and thus would cancel out in any formula setting the two equal to each other to find that magic number of Arcane shots where above you select Arcane shot glyph and below you select serpent sting glyph.

#8 Duw

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 04:29 PM

Sorry i forget that you can compare 1% damage increase to 1% crit increase. Though, wouldn't the survival talent that increases the crit damage of serpent effect the comparison with BM in which case? If not feel free to delete this post.

#9 Excalin

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 05:14 PM

Sorry i forget that you can compare 1% damage increase to 1% crit increase. Though, wouldn't the survival talent that increases the crit damage of serpent effect the comparison with BM in which case? If not feel free to delete this post.


That is basically my basis. As Surv with an improved output from its sting crits it takes roughly 10 shots give or take, which Id like to see the calculations as you can take that with a grain of salt till then. The problem with Surv is right now a lot of people aren't hitting that many extra arcane shots (when the 10% bug and haste increase with future content that may change). Now if we assume that this magic 10 number is in the ball park then we can easily look at BM and say ok our sting crits are only .75ish of the damage (no meta). This means we roughly need .75 as many arcanes before arcane shot glyph wins out. We probably easily put that many out every 1.17 minutes when we pop BW and then all the extra we focus dump with.

#10 Nooska

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 07:41 PM

When using the gear set and settings I used to derive the stat valuations Arcane Shot glyph wins hands down with serpent sting coming in second place with an index of 97.99(951) (to arcane shots 100) and Rapid Fire in third place with an index of 97.85. Its close, and the actual calculated dps difference between RF and AS is less than 500 (at over 20k dps).
I have added the wording that the 3 glyphs are alphabetically ordered so no valuation is given in the ordering (or can be misconstrued from it).
My feeling on it right now is that it is a matter of personal choice and playstyle - the difference is so small that if I miss a few arcanes to use more cobra shots (for instance), then it switches the other way between the 2, and if you let SrS fall off due to using "too many" arcane shots it again favors AS.

Edit: removed a line tallying the AS and SrS ticks due to being wrongly read from the analyzer.

#11 Carracalla

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 08:29 PM

In regards to the glyph conversation I was wondering if there could be a clarification on the dps increase of glyph of kill command. I'm currently using serpent sting, arcane shot, and kill shot. I can see serpent sting being replaced at higher crit%, but since my crit is still sub 20% self buffed I feel it provides a higher increase than kill command. To better formulate the question, how can we measure the benefits of kill command over serpent sting, is there a threshold, or is kill command more beneficial at any level of gear?


*edit to clarify my question.

#12 Natan

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 08:41 PM

Are there any pets you would recommend, assuming that all valuable raid buffs are provided(5% crit, agi and str, heroism/bloodlus/time warp. stamina and such)? Or should a Hunter just catch everything possible. Also should BM use exotics over nonexotics? Like Spirit Beast over a Cat ot Devilsaur over a Wolf?

#13 Excalin

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 09:07 PM

When using the gear set and settings I used to derive the stat valuations Arcane Shot glyph wins hands down with serpent sting coming in second place with an index of 97.99(951) (to arcane shots 100) and Rapid Fire in third place with an index of 97.85. Its close, and the actual calculated dps difference between RF and AS is less than 500 (at over 20k dps).
This is at 22 Arcane Shots over 5 minutes and 25 Serpent Sting ticks (SrS is up at all times).
I have added the wording that the 3 glyphs are alphabetically ordered so no valuation is given in the ordering (or can be misconstrued from it).
My feeling on it right now is that it is a matter of personal choice and playstyle - the difference is so small that if I miss a few arcanes to use more cobra shots (for instance), then it switches the other way between the 2, and if you let SrS fall off due to using "too many" arcane shots it again favors AS.


Why such a low number of shots and ticks?

#14 Nakari

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 09:12 PM

Are there any pets you would recommend, assuming that all valuable raid buffs are provided(5% crit, agi and str, heroism/bloodlus/time warp. stamina and such)? Or should a Hunter just catch everything possible. Also should BM use exotics over nonexotics? Like Spirit Beast over a Cat ot Devilsaur over a Wolf?


In case of Devilsaurs vs Wolfs and Spirit Beasts vs Cats, the exotics are a bit better because they offer a (situational) extra ability on top of the equivalent raid buffs. Especially the Spirit Beast's heal is fairly powerful.

#15 Nooska

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 10:49 PM

Why such a low number of shots and ticks?


Because I read the summation wrong. I intuitively read the focus cost as the number of shots (I'm still getting used to the online analyzer).
Correction;
96 Arcane Shots and 2 SrS. The first SrS drops off due to modelling BW, RF, BL all together at point 0 , pushing the first CoS to 22.65 seconds into the fight. It is reapplied instantly though, so for the comparison of AS and SrS glyphs it is up 100%.
Realistically the first SrS won't fall off, as you will be using CoS under BL, pushing RF till outside of BL and saving BW for a non hasted period. This does, however, most likely invalidate the RF glyph valuation, as RF being fired under BL means it doesn't gain the full benefit, especially since not a single CoS is used during RF, meaning only AS benefits.

In regards to the glyph conversation I was wondering if there could be a clarification on the dps increase of glyph of kill command. I'm currently using serpent sting, arcane shot, and kill shot. I can see serpent sting being replaced at higher crit%, but since my crit is still sub 20% self buffed I feel it provides a higher increase than kill command. To better formulate the question, how can we measure the benefits of kill command over serpent sting, is there a threshold, or is kill command more beneficial at any level of gear?


*edit to clarify my question.


Saving 3 focus from every KC over a 5 minute fight (49 KC) is 147 focus, or 6-7 more Arcane Shots. Further it reduces the amount of focus required to cast both AS and KC from 62 to 59, again allowing for more arcane shots. Arcane Shots are important to our dps apart from their direct contribution, because they trigger Cobra Strikes (which in turn triggers Invigoration). AS is also the only shot we have that can trigger Sic'em if that talent is chosen. So Glyph of KC basically benefits AS, and not KC.

#16 ceelion22

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 12:27 AM

I ran every race through FD to get some data.

Parameters for the test were; Naked, except Amber Messenger as a ranged weapon (it was the 1st one on the list)and a pet Core Hound. Both Pet and Hunter spec were copy-pastes of the suggested in this thread.

Results:
Posted Image

Separated Alliance and Horde with boxes. I underlined highest per Alliance and Horde in green.

As you can see Orcs were the only ones to break 2700 dps, pulling about 100 more dps than the next closest race. I realize dwarves get a racial from guns and the weapon tested was a bow. Now that might put the dwarves over draeinai, the real winner is still Orcs.

#17 Excalin

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 03:13 PM

In case of Devilsaurs vs Wolfs and Spirit Beasts vs Cats, the exotics are a bit better because they offer a (situational) extra ability on top of the equivalent raid buffs. Especially the Spirit Beast's heal is fairly powerful.


If you are a BM Hunter and don't have a spirit beast you should flat out go get one right now. When you absolutely have to survive nothing beats one. Crappy healer, soloing old content, solo dpsing Roshan it just makes it that much easier sometimes

#18 Twisk

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Posted 18 December 2010 - 10:19 AM

This is maybe a stupid question, but with my actual blue gear :

- AS does 6150 damage, 17% crit. Proc Cobra strikes and Sic' Em ! Don't depend on my pet position. With glyph and talent, it costs 22 focus.

- KC does 8500 damage, 55% crit with Killing Streak include. Depend on my pet position. Cost 37 focus without proc, 27 with proc.

So : with low crit rate, why use KC over AS ?

On a dummy, I do more damage without KC.

#19 Dabooma007

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Posted 18 December 2010 - 08:52 PM

I have a theory about the pet talent Wild Hunt that may be germane to this discussion. Basically the talent increases [Bite] damage by 120% at the cost of double focus cost. To me this says dpf increase.

The question then becomes how can I work it out so that I don't WASTE focus though when [Bite] is going to cost 50 focus and still use it enough that it's a dps increase. I believe that by macroing it to Kill Command (and taking it off autocast) you can create a scenario where it will be used with the damage increase of Wild Hunt without going over the focus limit.

Please note that the small amount of testing I have done was at level 80 with avg ilvl 232. Also note that if only one point is taken in Wild Hunt then this is not going to work because it depends on a 50 focus cost [Bite] ability.

If anyone else would like to test this and confirm or correct my theory I'll be checking in.

Also, the macro I'm using for this is:
#showtooltip
/cast [target=pettarget] Kill Command
/cast [pet, target=pettarget] Bite

One of the best things about this macro is that if your pet is ever getting close to the focus cap you can still press it again to dump some focus and still be able to use Kill Command on the next cooldown. You'll just have to press it once more within 2 seconds after that Kill Command to get it back on track to be cast together. Having both cast together also makes it a fairly big burst of damage which is always useful.

ps [Bite] = Bite, Smack, Claw, etc.

#20 Nooska

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Posted 19 December 2010 - 11:30 AM

Macroing bite to KC reduces the amount of bites to half. Instead of being cast every 3 seconds you cast them every 6 seconds. This costs you frenzy on the pet, which costs you focus fire speed on yourself. It also reduces the effect of Cobra Strikes, and roughly halves the effect of Invigoration. So you are reducing your own haste thereby reducing your passive focus regen. You are reducing your active focus regen through invigoration.
All this is given up for a very very slight buff of 10% more damage to Bite - 2 Bites = 200% Bited damage or 100% every 3 seconds, 1 "big" Bite is 220% damage every 6 seconds, or 110% damage every 3 seconds.
Just to make sure you are reading the talente Wild Hunt correctly I will quote it here;

Wild Hunt
When your Pet is at or above 50 Focus, your Pet's Basic Attacks will deal 60/120% more damage, but cost 50/100% additional focus.

Wild Hunt does not need more focus for the pet to cast bite, it is just a passive increase when the pet is running high on focus, and you will not be gaining any significant damage by macroing it to KC even if got the full WH benefit on every bite as opposed to every 3rd or 4th bite (which is what I'm shwoing on the stat derivation model)

This is maybe a stupid question, but with my actual blue gear :

- AS does 6150 damage, 17% crit. Proc Cobra strikes and Sic' Em ! Don't depend on my pet position. With glyph and talent, it costs 22 focus.

- KC does 8500 damage, 55% crit with Killing Streak include. Depend on my pet position. Cost 37 focus without proc, 27 with proc.

So : with low crit rate, why use KC over AS ?

On a dummy, I do more damage without KC.

First off, on a dummy you are not raidbuffed, and your target is not raid debuffed.
Secondly; Kill command does (849 + (RAP * 0.43)) damage, while Arcane Shot causes 100% weapon damage plus (RAP * 0.042)+252. This means that, eliminating weapon damage for a second, KC does 1% RAP + 597 damage more than arcane shot. So for KC to do more damage 1% RAP + 597 > Weapon Damage. This means that changing your ranged weapon out fast will favor arcane - if your weapon is of a "higher level" than the rest of your gear AS will benefit more, as the RAP is derived from all your gear while weapon damage is derived solely from your weapon. This also means that any buff that increases your RAP (like Kings, Might, SoE) will favor KC.
Now back to your question;
Arcane shot does 6150 damage and has 17% crit. This means the average damage from Arcane shot (crit and non-crit) is 7195.5 (excluding cirt damage increasing meta etc). Kill Command does 8500 damage and has 55% crit (I'm not sure why you 'include' Killing Streak, as KS does not increase crit, but damage after 2 consecutive crits). Thismeans the average damage from KC is 13175 or 183% of Arcane Shot (and that is a glyphed arcane from what you are writing). We will assume glyph for KC (as per the first post in this thread), so the focus cost for KC is 37, for AS 22, that means the focus cost of KC is 168% of AS, while doing 183% damage of AS - with your gear. The DPF - with your damage examples - is 327 dpf for AS and 356 dpf for KC - excluding Killing Streak proc.

Now to illustrate the way this changes, I will provide the numbers from the stat derivation model from the first post (fully raid buffed and with active meta);
AS - avg hit 9602, avg crit 19781, crit% 36
KC - avg hit 13679, avg crit 27358, crit% 56.5
The average hit for AS is 13266.44, the average hit for KC is 21407.64.
Finally, one very important point, to exceed the damage of KC with AS you need to use AS twice, doubling the time, and thus costing dps.
DPF, on your gear, KC is better, on the stat derivation AS is slightly better - but realistically we have to take into account that 1 second of a CoS we can fire together with the KC to make up for the extra 1 second spent casting arcane Shot to exceed the damage done by KC - which on the stat detivation model (where AS beats KC) comes out to 6.77 focus at an average casttime of 1.33 seconds. Taking the focus regen into account the DPF for KC on the SDM comes out to 708, opposed to the AS 603.
DPS/DPCT, on both models, KC is a clear winner (we are only talking about that 1 gcd where you can use KC out of 6).




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