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[Cataclysm] Beast Mastery (4.3)


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#181 Sarahjane

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Posted 06 December 2011 - 04:06 PM

Agility
Your best stat, by far, with the possible exception of hit. One agility provides 2 AP and 1/324.85 critical strike percent, before scaling. You get 5% extra from wearing all mail, 5% from raid buffs. The AP is again increased by 25% by Animal Handler, the passive BM benefit, and 10% from raid buffs. Agility is so much better than any secondary stat that some Wrath enchants that are pure agility come out significantly ahead of the 50 and 65 rating points in mastery, crit or haste that newer enchants give.


Animal Handler now increases AP by 30%, up from 25%. Your numbers from the OwN description reflect the buff, so I'm guessing this one just slipped through!

#182 Nooska

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Posted 06 December 2011 - 07:52 PM

Animal Handler now increases AP by 30%, up from 25%. Your numbers from the OwN description reflect the buff, so I'm guessing this one just slipped through!


Yes indeed, thank you for bringing it to my attention.

#183 Adaliaa

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Posted 07 December 2011 - 12:32 PM

Confirming that I'm seeing the same results with my character, but only after I switch out legs to gain 2t13 (although the 2t13 effect is not listed under "Gear Bonuses"). Although Haste is valued over Mastery by almost a 3:1 ratio, reforging from Haste to Mastery consistently provides a DPS increase according to the tool. As you noted, this makes sense given that our only cast time shot is CoS, and with 2t13, it will see a large reduction in casts.

I'm curious then, as to why I see a large DPS loss with the tool when switching from 3/3 Pathing to 1/3 Pathing + 2/2 Imp Serpent Sting, with the Serpent Sting glyph replacing Kill Shot. I found this setup through the Paragon website, and with the value of haste plummeting for BM with 2t13, it would seem like a logical conclusion that we could move the points in Pathing elsewhere for a DPS gain. Any ideas why this does not seem to be the case?


While I haven't mathed it out, the obvious answer to me is that while haste is devalued with T13, Serpent Sting still is a relatively low portion of our damage. Since in an ideal situation you only use SrS once in a fight, all you're getting from those two talent points is 10% more crit on your SrS. The 2% haste, on the other hand, does still affect what Cobras you're casting, your auto-shots, and your pet's auto attacks, all of which add up to more of a benefit. In a non-ideal circumstance, where there are adds with high health that you'd be using SrS on, or lots of target switching that lends itself to SrS dropping off the boss, it might be different, but that's not what FD models.

#184 Namarus

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Posted 07 December 2011 - 01:00 PM

While I haven't mathed it out, the obvious answer to me is that while haste is devalued with T13, Serpent Sting still is a relatively low portion of our damage. Since in an ideal situation you only use SrS once in a fight, all you're getting from those two talent points is 10% more crit on your SrS. The 2% haste, on the other hand, does still affect what Cobras you're casting, your auto-shots, and your pet's auto attacks, all of which add up to more of a benefit. In a non-ideal circumstance, where there are adds with high health that you'd be using SrS on, or lots of target switching that lends itself to SrS dropping off the boss, it might be different, but that's not what FD models.


Just a quick correction there. I don't believe that haste effects your pets auto attacks. I tested that last night by looking at my pet swing speed, 1.6 and then removed all of my gear. The swing speed was still 1.6.

#185 Nooska

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Posted 07 December 2011 - 02:54 PM

While it may seem obvious to drop ISrS for full 3/3 pathing, I am looking at a 0.2% dps difference in favor of doing that in a perfect patchwerk fight (ilvl 397/403 geared). In reality, you just have to add a delay of 0.25 seconds to 1 CoS over a 5 minute fight (with 8 CoS) to have lost that. With mean choice reaction* time being somewhere in the region of 0.3 - 0.5 seconds, the time of gain is outside human control.
Contrast this with a definite gain with a ~15 second response time to do one action at any time during that, and I dare say that both in theory and in practise, ISrS will give you a noticable gain over the 2% haste from Pathing.

* - Choice Reaction Time, as indicated by the Jensen Box, the time to recognize and react to a simple stimuli - a light diode indicating which button to push. By all counts some raid situations could be equal o this simple test, but most will likely fall into a more complex, and therefore harder and more timeconsuming, choice and reaction.
The specific times are taken from I. J. Deary, G. Der and G. Ford (2001). "Reaction times and intelligence differences: A population-based cohort study"

#186 pichuca

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Posted 07 December 2011 - 08:17 PM

Just a quick correction there. I don't believe that haste effects your pets auto attacks. I tested that last night by looking at my pet swing speed, 1.6 and then removed all of my gear. The swing speed was still 1.6.


Haste does affect pet swing speed. Try to reforge a piece to or out of haste while having the pet pannel open and you will notice. Also if you take pieces out and give it a few secs the stats will reflect on the pet pannel eventually.

On other thing, Is anyone giving any credit to Kiroptyric Sigil - Item - World of Warcraft It simulates as the best trinket apart from the 3 versions of Vial of Shadows on any spec and it could be great to macro to BW, delaying BW a bit every time while it doesn´t mean the loss of a BW during a fight

#187 Rivkah

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Posted 07 December 2011 - 11:56 PM

Haste does affect pet swing speed. Try to reforge a piece to or out of haste while having the pet pannel open and you will notice. Also if you take pieces out and give it a few secs the stats will reflect on the pet pannel eventually.


Haste definitely does affect pet swing speed, however keep in mind the pathing talent is ranged haste only and does not affect pet attack speed.

#188 Lokrick

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Posted 11 December 2011 - 09:53 PM

I looked at logs for our first few pulls of Warlord Zon'ozz to decide whether I should run BM with a Devilsaur or a Spirit Beast (our 10 man does not have another consistent source of the healing debuff). Three observations from the data from our first set of pulls:

Psychic Drain with Monstrous Bite heals the boss only 7.5 * damage done (compared with 10x without MB). In the later log of our kill, for example (where I did not use the devilsaur), the boss would have gotten 1.4M less healing (or 1.9% less boss effective health). That would have effectively been a 1.9% increase in raid dps, even though it doesn't show up on meters (ergo I should bring DinoMight in BM!).

Monstrous Bite does not have 100% uptime. It suffers from the "pet doesn't recast until he notices it's no longer up" issue. One of the bites in the log above happened just after MB faded, and it was 1.5 seconds before it was on the boss again. MB had ~80% uptime, so other sources of the debuff may be preferred.
[22:57:06.426] DinoMight's Monstrous Bite fades from Warlord Zon'ozz
[22:57:06.426] Warlord Zon'ozz casts Psychic Drain
[22:57:06.513] Warlord Zon'ozz Psychic Drain  Kalinasta 91519 (R: 25422)
[22:57:06.903] Warlord Zon'ozz Psychic Drain Warlord Zon'ozz +915190
[22:57:08.052] DinoMight casts Monstrous Bite on Warlord Zon'ozz
[22:57:08.066] Warlord Zon'ozz afflicted by Monstrous Bite from DinoMight

Monstrous Bite seems to take a GCD, thus potentially impacting casting of Bite. That's based on a manual inspection of this query, and finding a regular pattern of 1.5 seconds between Monstrous Bite and/or Bite. It also does no damage. Expanding around the above example, the GCD may also exacerbate the gaps in debuff coverage; e.g., the MB gap happens to be around a Bite GCD.
[22:57:03.241] DinoMight casts Bite on Warlord Zon'ozz
[22:57:06.426] DinoMight's Monstrous Bite fades from Warlord Zon'ozz
[22:57:06.426] Warlord Zon'ozz casts Psychic Drain
[22:57:06.490] DinoMight casts Bite on Warlord Zon'ozz
[22:57:06.513] Warlord Zon'ozz Psychic Drain  Kalinasta 91519 (R: 25422)
[22:57:06.903] Warlord Zon'ozz Psychic Drain Warlord Zon'ozz +915190
[22:57:08.052] DinoMight casts Monstrous Bite on Warlord Zon'ozz
Simc does not show any dps difference as a result of turning off monstrous bite (simulated by comparing a wolf and a devilsaur). It will take more examination of the results to determine whether that's because simc doesn't implement the current Monstrous Bite behavior or whether for example the reduction in bite frequency is sufficiently mitigated by pooling more focus for Wild Hunt.

#189 Namarus

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 06:59 AM

Haste definitely does affect pet swing speed, however keep in mind the pathing talent is ranged haste only and does not affect pet attack speed.


Bizarre, I was at 2k haste, and completely removing my gear did not change the pet displayed attack speed.

#190 Mericet

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 02:58 PM

To minimize wasted pet GCDs and make sure the debuff is up at the right time you can turn off auto-cast and manually apply it before the psychic drain. Additionally, don't forget that widow's venom was also buffed to the same 25% healing reduction as monstrous bite. It does cost you a GCD and 20 focus every once in a while but if your group is missing a valuable buff/debuff you could bring with a different pet it could be worth it.

#191 Relwin

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Posted 13 December 2011 - 05:57 PM

Moved the last three posts to SQ/SA as it fit better there.

#192 JuhnorX

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Posted 15 December 2011 - 05:34 PM

Just an item of fun from Dragon Soul as BM.

My Turtle successfully tanked Yor'sahj last night on 10 man. The misses were from an accidental equipping of a novelty trinket which dropped me substantially below hit cap. I didn't use the +15% health talents as was on a whim. Only 2 times did the boss turn towards the raid, it tanked from behind and no-one was near on threat. I was 100% on Yor'sahj.

Pet spec: Hunter Pet Calculator - Wowhead

WoL: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

#193 erple2

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Posted 27 December 2011 - 07:23 AM

I was looking at the Pet talents, specifically the Cunning Pet talent tree. It doesn't make sense to me to put more than 1 point into "Mobility" - your talent choice of 3 points of Longevity makes the cooldown for Dive/Dash 22.4 (70% of 32 seconds) seconds long. The first point of Mobility would lower the Dive/Dash cooldown to 14.4 seconds. Given that the pet Dive/Dash duration is 16 seconds, there's 1.6 seconds of overlap there.

Even without the Mobility Talent, the pet would only be non-dive/dashing for about 5.4 seconds out of 22.4 seconds. I don't know where I'd put the 1 (or possibly 2) free talent point(s).

(edited for correctness and clarity)

#194 Nooska

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Posted 27 December 2011 - 11:32 AM

I was looking at the Pet talents, specifically the Cunning Pet talent tree. It doesn't make sense to me to put more than 1 point into "Mobility" - your talent choice of 3 points of Longevity makes the cooldown for Dive/Dash 22.4 (70% of 32 seconds) seconds long. The first point of Mobility would lower the Dive/Dash cooldown to 14.4 seconds. Given that the pet Dive/Dash duration is 16 seconds, there's 1.6 seconds of overlap there.


Except that that isn't how the calculation is done. The CD reduction from longevity is applied to the reduced CD after reduction from Mobility. This means that Dive/Dash has 32 second cooldown base, which correctly transforms to 22.4 second CD without any points in mobility. 1/2 Mobility gives a base CD of 24 seconds, which, after Longevity, becomes 16.8 seconds. Now its only 0.8 seconds without dash/dive, but seeing as we have more points than we can use for dps gains when chosing a cunning pet, I have chosen in the "standard" build I present to make suer that Dive/Dash is up 100%, even though the Longevity reduction is wasted on it because Mobility reduces it to the duration - however, no talent points are wasted.

#195 Nooska

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Posted 03 February 2012 - 04:04 PM

OP updated with the buff to AotH in 4.3.2 under the OwN description. I remember being poked about anothe rplace I wrote something about it last time, but I can't find it - I think I edited the area to not require updating in the future though.

#196 Namarus

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 07:37 PM

Does anyone know if restricting your pet's use of it's focus dump until it has 100 focus to maximize Wild Hunt damage be a dps increase or loss?

#197 Tobensen

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 10:01 PM

For Wild Hunt your pet only needs 51 focus (maybe 50 I´m not sure). So restricting to 51 would be an DPS increase vs restricting to 100 focus.
But how do you want to monitor it?
Micromanaging your pets focus bar doesn´t seem that easy. You have 15 sec to use up Cobra Stike proccs, which schould be enough, but Culling the Herd only lats for 10 sec, so the uptime of it probably would go down and you would want 5 stacks of Fokus Fire every 20 sec, so there is only 5 sec window for delays anyway.

I don´t think it would bring much if at all.

#198 Venekathas

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 08:51 PM

I'd like to open a conversation about the larger stat pools, and balance of mastery vs Haste. What levels are appropriate or not. Also, a while ago, I came up with the idea for Marksman of macroing my pets "claw" attack with steady shot, since the downtime of my focus dumps would be enough for my pet to gain enough focus to have a higher wild hunt uptime. Since I can use both steady shots, and use Claw once in that (Because of the 3 second CD) It worked to be one claw per 4-5 seconds. The problem with this was, that loses a GCD at least every rotation, which at any length of fight, would be negative every 20 seconds.

The point really is, get your crit up to make your pet rarely lose focus, and they'll have a high enough uptime to be worth it. With our end game stat pools, it should be pretty easy.

Out of the three specs, I focus on Beast Mastery the least. But my assumption for stat pools would be crit as high as possible, haste breakpoint maybe around... 1200, then rest mastery. With my gear at least. I haven't tested it extensively, just thinking on it, I would think that would scale well.




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