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[Cataclysm] Beast Mastery (4.3)


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#21 Masterdragon

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Posted 20 December 2010 - 01:38 PM

For Pet AoE abilities, the Chimera's Froststorm Breath is superior to the Worm's Burrow. While the Froststorm Breath does about half the damage as Burrow, it does not have a cooldown like Burrow's 30s one which allows it to be used multiple times after the channel finishes. Also the pet is able to move around while channeling Froststorm Breath (still cannot attack or using kill command cancels the breath).
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#22 Excalin

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Posted 20 December 2010 - 03:54 PM

So I have Surv Spec as my main and BM with my Spirit Beast as my back up. Has anyone else felt like they have had to use their spirit beast healing to keep themselves alive because of healer mana issues? I am pulling anywhere from 10-14k on fights as Surv, but the number of fights I am practically left for dead is to numerous. I leveled up as BM with my Spirit Beast and I think I noticed almost instantly when I respeced my MM spec to Surv how much of a crutch my pets healing was for me. It might not be as much damage, but I would say that for the average hunter who pugs his heroics that if they have a spirit beast then a BM spec would be the best spec to play in the majority of situations.

#23 proxx

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Posted 20 December 2010 - 10:35 PM

So I have Surv Spec as my main and BM with my Spirit Beast as my back up. Has anyone else felt like they have had to use their spirit beast healing to keep themselves alive because of healer mana issues? I am pulling anywhere from 10-14k on fights as Surv, but the number of fights I am practically left for dead is to numerous. I leveled up as BM with my Spirit Beast and I think I noticed almost instantly when I respeced my MM spec to Surv how much of a crutch my pets healing was for me. It might not be as much damage, but I would say that for the average hunter who pugs his heroics that if they have a spirit beast then a BM spec would be the best spec to play in the majority of situations.


The vast majority of heroic damage can be avoided, at the very least to bring it down to a level easily managable for the healer. In my experience I have found that as long as I've kept up any relevant CC, avoided standing in anything nasty, and either stacked or spread where appropriate, I take very little damage. Don't forget to fully utilise MD and Tranq shot to enhance this further. Clicking lightwells and standing in the relevant green/blue circles is also of importance!

#24 Bonestorm

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 11:45 AM

For Pet AoE abilities, the Chimera's Froststorm Breath is superior to the Worm's Burrow. While the Froststorm Breath does about half the damage as Burrow, it does not have a cooldown like Burrow's 30s one which allows it to be used multiple times after the channel finishes. Also the pet is able to move around while channeling Froststorm Breath (still cannot attack or using kill command cancels the breath).


Is froststorm breath still a cone AoE? I messed around with a chimera in 4.01, but it's breath generally seemed to miss half of the mobs I was trying to AoE, and trying to line up the pet to cone mobs properly seemed like a lot more trouble than it's worth.

#25 Excalin

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 05:13 PM

The vast majority of heroic damage can be avoided, at the very least to bring it down to a level easily managable for the healer. In my experience I have found that as long as I've kept up any relevant CC, avoided standing in anything nasty, and either stacked or spread where appropriate, I take very little damage. Don't forget to fully utilise MD and Tranq shot to enhance this further. Clicking lightwells and standing in the relevant green/blue circles is also of importance!


My comment isn't as much about what you can avoid as it is the fights where you take a lot of damage just because that is what the fight is about. I'll go surv all day when I have the right group, but for the average hunter in the average pug heroic there will be fights they can get away with being surv and there will be fights that having a spirit beast and going BM will be the best choice not only for that hunter but for the group. It is situational and highly group dependent.

#26 Atlantya

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Posted 23 December 2010 - 10:52 PM

Are there any pets you would recommend, assuming that all valuable raid buffs are provided(5% crit, agi and str, heroism/bloodlus/time warp. stamina and such)? Or should a Hunter just catch everything possible. Also should BM use exotics over nonexotics? Like Spirit Beast over a Cat ot Devilsaur over a Wolf?


I sourced my list from pet/Raid Buffs @ WHU

Here was my goto list of hansome looking pets I chose to fill in the blanks, your welcome to utilize it it leans toward SV usable types.
Fox			-haste				Ruins of Gilneas or Tol Barad (Baradin Fox color Changer)
Cat			+str/agil			Winna's Kitten (Quest) Felwood
Core Hound		exotic (+haste &-cast speed)	
Silithid		exotic (+health)		Hive Controller SW of TN Gadget Boat
Wolf			(+crit)				Ironjaw NW Corner Tekkokar Forest Burning Crusade
Shale Spider		exotic (+5% stats)		Crimson Color Far East Side deepholm East of gunship
Raptor 			(-armor)			Corrupted Bloodtalon SW of Durotar Islands
Carrion Bird		(-physical damage)		Saltspray Gull All Over Thousand Needles
Sporebat 		(-cast speed)			ZangarMarsh N of Shattrath BC
Ravager 		(-Phys Armor)			Blades Edge Mountains Rip-Blade Ravager
Wind Serpent		(-Spell Armor)			Cloud Serpent Thousand Needles

The pet(s) you choose for your encounter will depend on 3 main factors
1. Composition of the Party: Is it Melee or Caster heavy. For example say a large portion of the DPS is using bleed type damage, in that case maybe a Hyena with a bleed damage buff will be the best.
2. Boss Type: Is this a boss that is Melee or Caster Based. For example you have a boss that does allot of spell AOE, you can bring a pet with spell damage reduction and help the healers
3. What other buffs are already being brought by other party members. This will be the more difficult factor for most to determine, unless you are an expert on every class and know what they are casting. A raid leader will be a good resource to help sort and determine which pet buff you should supply.

Another good point to be aware of is raid pre-preparation. If you know the bosses you are going to face on an encounter you can stack your available pets with one tailored to each fight.

I’ll probably roll with some standard config like 3 + Damage and 1 Spell Debuff and 1 Melee Debuff

One tip:
I plan to name each of these pets a shorthand description of the buff type they have to make selection and tracking easier. It will also let other raid members know and track which buff

#27 Solidus-Snake

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Posted 28 December 2010 - 08:14 AM

There's an addon that tells you which buffs your group should have.

RaidComp - Addons - Curse

I use that on my Hunter. In heroics it isn't too hard to tell which buffs are present and which are missing, but in 10-man raids it'll end up being more useful.

#28 Lunarstorm

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Posted 29 December 2010 - 06:21 AM

Ok I have a question. Would steady shot actually be better than Cobra Shot? Because you can get a Glyph of Steady Shot as well as spec for extra speed with steady (at 85, 2nd tier of Marks: Improved Steady Shot) while Cobra Shot has next to nothing buffing it up. Experimenting with it myself, I was wondering if anybody else has tested this?

#29 Nooska

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Posted 29 December 2010 - 01:52 PM

Steady Shot has one major disadvantage over Cobra Shot - it is physical damage, and mitigated by armor. Secondly Steady does not extend SrS, so you would have to do this manually. ISS buff lasts for 7 or 8 seconds (I can't remember off the top of my head) so you would have to cast 2 successive SS within each 8 second cycle to keep up the buff. This could easily be done with BM's 6 second cycle; ||: KC, AS/SrS, SS, SS (SS) :||. Doing this, however, takes out all CoS damage and replaces it with SS damage, so we have to look at the damage difference there. It also removes 1 As every 3 cycles to reapply SrS and giving 3 seconds out of 18 that it won't be up (or an uptime of 83%). There is no damage from applying SrS, as we have to give up ISrS to pick up ISS, though we could skip out on Sic'Em if we went for ISS, as we would be dropping some AS from the rotation to reapply SrS.
So, CoS vs SS;
CoS: Weapon damage + 276 + 1.7% RAP
SS: (Weapon damage + 280 + 2.1%RAP) * Armor Mitigation
Looking purely at the RAP contribution, ignoring that armor mitigation also impacts weapondamage and base damage, Armor mitigation has to be less than 20% for SS to scale better from RAP. With the best raid buffs and debuffs boss armor mitigation is currently at just under 30%, so CoS scales better even ignoring that Weapon damage and base damage is also affected by armor mitigation.
Thats not the end, of course, because the 15% haste might make up for it. Looking at the stat weights, haste comes in dead last. Using the same model as I used to derive the stat weightings, giving up ISrS and 1 point in pathing and switching SS for CoS is a loss of 7% dps (or 1500 dps out of a total of 20,500 dps with CoS, Pathing and ISrS).
So, the math says it should be a dps loss purely from losingd amage on the focus shots, as well as losing AS to refresh SrS. Th emodelling on femaledwarf (our only real toll right now) says that the haste gain does not give enough extra damage from Autoshot and faster SS than is lost.
So right now, I'll put the idea to bed, and suggest we have another look when the mentioned buffs to SS have been applied.

#30 zakaria

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Posted 30 December 2010 - 07:26 AM

Can you add section for reforging please, because apparently many hunters thinking that reforging is something like enchants and they have to do it on every slot of their gear, at the end they find themselves whatever the reforged stat in one of their gear slot they are reforging it back in another slot.
So basically (correct me if I’m wrong) we are supposed to
-gem all red and blue with , yellow with .

[U]Gear stat[/U]			[U]Below hit Cap[/U]			[U]Above hit Cap[/U]
+ Hit + Crit			No reforging			Hit > Mastery
+ Hit + Mastery			No reforging			Hit > Crit
+ Hit + Haste			Haste > Crit			Haste > Crit
+ Crit + Mastery		Mastery > Hit			No reforging
+ Crit + Haste			Haste > Hit			Haste > Mastery
+ Mastery  + Haste		Haste > Hit			Haste > Crit


#31 Nooska

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Posted 30 December 2010 - 12:07 PM

If we can come to a consensus about hard and fast rules, or general guidelines I'll be more than happy to add such a section, however, I think the issue you are mentioning (that some think its like enchants) isn't relevant for the valuation of whether it should be on there.
I feel that the stats section gives a pretty nice guideline to what stats you want, and therefore which ones you would rather be something else. I would therefore prefer that each person figures out the reforging via tools such as femaledwarf.com or the spreadsheet (when we had/have one), especially since its not a single point conversion and gear doesn't have the same amount, so mathing out what to reforge and what not to is in many ways too complex to get into in this post in my opinion.
That said, I disagree with the guideline you posted on 2 point: Hit/mastery gear I would reforge mastery to crit when below the hit cap, and hit to crit when above (unless doing so takes me below) as crit is far better than mastery at the currently obtainable gear levels. Hit/Haste gear would be haste to crit below hit cap, and hit to crit above - reforging haste to crit when above the hitcap requireds hit to be more valuable than haste when hit no longer does anything - or in other words, it would require haste to be detrimental and provide a negative dps value. These valuations are simply derived from the stat weightings in teh first post.

#32 fearstalker

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Posted 30 December 2010 - 06:13 PM

Regarding the stat balancing, we really need to wait and see if BM mastery value gets adjusted in the coming class balancing patch. Once we see that on the PTR, we should be able to solidify what the priority should be. Since they are discussing boosting several shots, haste might become more vaiuable, or we may simply get a stronger KC. Time will tell.

Hopefully they will also fix the meta. I recently gemmed to get the meta (I needed the hit anyway) but getting that fixed will help. (And if they boost BM mastery enough, it might give us a few other gem options).

#33 Sepultura

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Posted 30 December 2010 - 07:23 PM

Edit: Already found a answer for my question, Nevermind this post.

#34 Nooska

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Posted 31 December 2010 - 01:57 PM

Regarding the stat balancing, we really need to wait and see if BM mastery value gets adjusted in the coming class balancing patch. Once we see that on the PTR, we should be able to solidify what the priority should be. Since they are discussing boosting several shots, haste might become more vaiuable, or we may simply get a stronger KC. Time will tell.


Aye. As for the first post, I will, of course, redo the stat valuations everytime there is a change that can skew them - I'll just have to wait for Rivkah to update the dps analyzer or in case of a spreadsheet appearing, wait for it to be updated.
For Mastery to overtake crit, will require a lot of fiddling though, from the simple perspective that mastery only affects pet damage output, and that is less than 50% of our total damage. At 50% damage, mastery has to be more than twice as valuable per rating to overtake crit - or, right now it would have to be more than 2% increase to pet damage per mastery point, compared to 1% increased chance to crit for the same amount of rating.

#35 frostillicus

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Posted 31 December 2010 - 04:46 PM

Edited by poster because the information was an annomally based on leveling gear set that would not have helped later in raiding enviroment due to the theory of the spec alteration from OPs spec not panning out.
Sorry for taking up your time.

#36 Tooran

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Posted 08 January 2011 - 02:13 PM

I'm not entirely sure why it is that you don't think we benefit as much from BW when in Rapid Fire (or other haste increases). BW is a pure damage increase, so from where I'm sitting: the more shots the better?

#37 JamesButabi

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Posted 08 January 2011 - 06:08 PM

So the only unique attribute we currently see on PTR is a 20% increase to kill command damage. Not quite the buff I was hoping for as this effects such a small portion of my overall damage.

Other notable items that will affect us as well as the whole hunter class are:

Kill shots attack power scaling has been increased by 50%
Pets now take 70% of the masters armor no matter the type.

#38 Nooska

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Posted 08 January 2011 - 06:24 PM

I'm not entirely sure why it is that you don't think we benefit as much from BW when in Rapid Fire (or other haste increases). BW is a pure damage increase, so from where I'm sitting: the more shots the better?

You have gotten my reasoning backwards. I am saying that we don't benefit so much form the haste effect when using BW. During BW we don't want to cast CoS, as BW in addition to amplifying our damage, halves the focus cost. During BW we will only get more autoshots from the haste effect, and that means that overall, it will be more damage to use BW when our CoS is on the longer cast time - regardless of when in a fight we use BW, we get 10 seconds of Autoshots with damage increase. Haste increases during BW increase the amount of autoshots getting this damage increase, but BW is only 10% damage increase for us. If on the other hand we don't pop BW during haste increases, but use the regular rotation, we gain the benefit of being able to put in additional Arcane Shots due to increased focus regen from both the haste effect and the faster casting CoS.
The DPS analyzer currently does not model this very well, becuase even though we can seperate RF and BW in the settings, we also don't want to use BW during BL (unless its a burn phase). Similarly we don't want to use RF during BL either - if we aren't losing a use of BW and/or RF over the course of the fight. If we lose a BW or a RF during the course of a fight by delaying, then we will, most likely, lose more damage output than we gain by using BW without haste effects.

#39 Noleafclover

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Posted 08 January 2011 - 07:59 PM

I'm not entirely sure why it is that you don't think we benefit as much from BW when in Rapid Fire (or other haste increases). BW is a pure damage increase, so from where I'm sitting: the more shots the better?


If you want a short answer (Nooska just wrote the long version):

BW allows us to spam Arcanes like no tomorrow.

RF allows us to cast Cobras very quickly.

You can't both spam Arcanes AND cast Cobras.

So, if you use both at the same time, you're partly wasting one of the effects. Increased damage from BW doesn't compensate for this.

#40 technophebe

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Posted 08 January 2011 - 11:25 PM

Thanks Nooska, fantastic guide.

I have *one* query though - in the section on rapid fire you say that under its' effects Cobra Shot begins to win over Arcane Shot in terms of DCPT, but I can't see how this is possible - all my parses show that Arcane does a good 15% more damage per cast than Cobra, which would mean that it would have to be casting (roughly) 15% faster than the GCD to achieve a greater DCPT.

I'm assuming I've missed something obvious but I've agonized and agonized and I can't see what it is, can you illuminate the reasoning behind this one?




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