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Combat Guide for Cata [12/01/2011]


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#21 Aldriana

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Posted 21 December 2010 - 08:39 PM

Though its worth noting that Assassination Rogues can't actually spec for it. Or rather: speccing 2/2 Imp Expose Armor actually costs an Assassination rogue as much damage as it would for a Combat rogue to just keep it up in the first place. Also note that it's not a personal DPS increase for an Assassination rogue to keep it up, either through speccing it or just using it directly. So characterizing assassination rogues as a "better source of it" is sort of debatable.

That said, all druids - not just ferals - and all warriors are a better source of it, so in most cases you should be off the hook.

#22 Huillam

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Posted 21 December 2010 - 09:43 PM

Engineering
Engineers are also able choose a utility enchant for their belt, the two that stand out are Nitro Boosts which gives you increased movement speed every 3 minutes and Ground Plasma Shield, which absorbs a respectable amount of damage every 5 minutes.

Both of them have "fail effects" wich can kill yourself or your entire raid.


Nitro Boosts can "explode" making yourself unable to control your character while flying. It sometimes results in Rocket Fuel Leak dealing 15% of your maximum health in Fire damage every sec (8s duration, can be removed using cloak of shadow).


Ground Plasma Shiled "fail" with Painful Shock : ae taunt in a 40 yards radius.

#23 Sulphuric

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Posted 21 December 2010 - 11:13 PM

Nice that you cover almost every aspect of the combat role, but one thing that's been boggling me:

How do I go on about figuring the EP value of the 3 expertise racial when you only receive the benefit on one weapon?

I’m currently wondering what to choose between “Fang of Twilight” and “Crul’Korak, the Lightning’s Arc” as a human.

R = Reforged
() = Original stat value

Fang of Twilight
+97 crit * 0.95 = 92.15
+(97) 59 mastery * 0.9 = 53.1
R: 38 expertise * 1.6 = 60.8
Total EP = 206.05

Crul’Korak, the Lightning’s Arc
+(97) 59 crit * 0.95 = 56.05
+97 haste * 1.5 = 145.5
R: 38 expertise * 1.6 = 60.8
Total EP = 262.35

So in raw stats, the axe should be worth 56.3 EP more than the sword.

As 781 expertise rating is the cap, 1 expertise would convert to ~30 expertise rating (781/26). 90 * 1.6 = 144 EP (if it was awarded for both weapons).

Mainhand accounts for:
- Sinister Strike
- MH white hits
- Starting the MG ‘process’

Offhand accounts for:
- OH white hits (50% or 75%(?) damage reduction)
- Finishing the MG ‘process’ (can this be dodged/parried?)

It’s easy to see that the MH expertise is worth a lot more than the OH expertise, but it would be nice to have a rough number to base yourself on, so you can just multiply 144 with 0.xx to find wether it’s a benefit to go with a MH/OH sword, despite the sword having lesser stats.

And if I understood it right, you’ll still only cap the MH (as in, 26/23 in the character pane) as it’s not worth wasting the excess 3 on the MH side. And you’d still cap it 26/29 if you happen to have non-sword/mace MH and sword/mace OH? As the value of the offhand expertise is such inferior compared the the counterpart.

#24 Aldriana

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Posted 21 December 2010 - 11:49 PM

As it turns out, the value of MH expertise and OH expertise are actually very very close, as while SS, RvS, Evis, and Rupture are based off MH expertise, Combat Potency benefits from OH expertise. In the (near-BIS) gear set I use to run numbers in ShadowCraft:

dodge_exp:          1.59901062565
oh_dodge_exp:       0.806399170013
mh_dodge_exp:       0.792634813418

However, the exact split doesn't really matter that much. Even if one hand accounted for 2/3 of the benefit of expertise, that'd still drop the value of expertise from 1.6 to under 1.1, which would make it less valuable than both Haste and White Hit, at which point its clearly superior to start reforging to those stats instead of expertise. Hence, from a practical perspective, the exact split is less important than the fact that it almost has to drop behind haste and spell hit, and very likely white hit as well - which makes it clearly not worth capping for the second hand. In practice it drops behind *all* the other stats, but from a reforging perspective that tends not to matter very much.

#25 Sulphuric

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 12:21 AM

Managed to leave out Combat Potency, hence the the extreme underestimation. But thanks for clearing that up, the sword should be ~16 EP ahead then.

Also, how would you compare a 1.5 mace/sword (expertise benefit again) against a 1.4 dagger (poison damage, Combat Potency procs)? What's the EP value for a 0.1 speed difference?

I'm aware there isn't dropping any 1.5 sword/maces this far into the expansion, but never know Blizzards plans for future tiers, so would be handy to know how to work that part out as well if the situation were to arrive

#26 Nightroad

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 02:28 AM

I feel there should be a caveat added to the Meta Gem section. If the difference between matching or skipping a yellow socket is less than the difference between the Relentless and Chaotic meta it becomes worthwhile to meet the socket bonus and use a Relentless gem.

Using as an example and assuming the character is over the spell hit cap, which presents the lowest reasonable EP value for meeting the sockets, we get:

Skipping the bonus and using Chaotic 54(.95) + 80(2.7) = 267.3EP

Matching the sockets and using Relentless 81(2.7) + 20(1.5) + 20(1.1) = 270.7EP

For reference the difference between Relentless and Chaotic meta is 21(2.7) - 54(.95) = 56.7 - 51.3 = 5.4EP

Obviously not every piece of gear will exhibit this behavior but considering a scenario where every yellow socket is worth skipping AND the character is wearing Tier Pants it becomes valid to ignore that section of the guide.

Also, I very much appreciate the work and effort put into this.

#27 ABUSEDGOAT

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 07:28 AM

This is a good guide but I still have a few questions.

Given the cost of landslide on our server (10k+ for the recipe, another 10k+ for the enchant) I'm wondering what the next best options are. I'm assuming hurricane/hurricane or hurricane/avalanche. I realize this is an endgame forum, but it seems no one uses this yet due to its cost.

Is it worth waiting until 30% BG at the start of a fight (assume 6-8 minutes) before using killing spree? I'm tempted to assume it's worth using KS near the start since all procs + potion are going to be up as well as AR after to help shorten the cooldown of your next KS. Is this better or should I use AR and wait until 30% before hitting spree? I realize after this point it's generally better to wait until 30% BG.

What's the ramp up time required for IP to be ahead of wound? IIRC it was around 30s in wrath.

Perhaps I missed it, but why is SnD size not that important? This was the case in wrath, but we now have a 6s glyph and a talent that favors using rupture/evis.

Is it safe to assume that if only a few seconds are left on a 30% BG it's better to use evis instead of rupture? The evis is a guaranteed 30% more damage, whereas rupture will only give a few ticks and then drop to 0% bonus.

#28 juna51999

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 07:33 AM

Perhaps you could include in your post somewhere the expertise required for heroics, and not raiding. As I understand it, you only need 24 expertise to be capped for heroics (level 87's). Also, is it clear yet what the exact amount of rating to hit 24 expertise is?

#29 ieatpaperbag

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 12:39 PM

Perhaps you could include in your post somewhere the expertise required for heroics, and not raiding. As I understand it, you only need 24 expertise to be capped for heroics (level 87's). Also, is it clear yet what the exact amount of rating to hit 24 expertise is?


I really want to keep the guide focused on raid content. If you need 24 expertise, you can look up on the combat ratings thread that a level 85 needs 30.0272 expertise rating for one expertise meaning you need 721 expertise rating.

#30 Miltrath

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 03:08 PM

Mastery is one of combat's weakest stats but the value changes quite a bit depending on how much you have. Mastery acts on MG which baseline gives you an 18% chance for your MH attacks to cause you to do an extra OH attack, increased by 2% for every point of mastery you have (179.28 rating). MH attacks include both autoattacks and specials and the OH attack is considered a yellow attack that is normalized and can proc Combat Potency.


Could you go more in-depth about this? specifically, does it's value climb steadily point-for-point, or is it more of magic number scenario, and at what point does it become worth having?

#31 Pest

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 04:43 PM

Maybe it's also worth noting in the Multi-Target section that using Eviscerate over Rupture is clearly superior while BF is up, since, unlike Rupture, Eviscerate hits both targets.

#32 Waitnbleed

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Posted 23 December 2010 - 04:39 PM

Is there any plan to add information about combat specific add-ons, I know there is a pretty good UI thread already but it is a bit broad as it doesn't relate specifically to combat. For example I use slice commander because its compact and fits nicely beneath my characters feet and allows an at a glance look at my energy and time remaining on SnD, it’s a functional add-on but out of date. I switched mains for Cataclysm so I am still getting up to speed with competitive rogue play and have not found ideal add-ons to date. Nice thread, thank you for the information and hard work.

#33 ieatpaperbag

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Posted 23 December 2010 - 05:09 PM

Thank you very much for the guide. I still have a question. Im sure it was mention but i dont seem to find it.

The priority stat wise fot gear should be Agi, hit(until cap) then what ?? Expertise or mastery ? I will reforge many item i just whant to know what is best. To hit more or be dodge less. And is there a cap to any of those 2 stats ? Thanks you all.


Pipus, you pretty much just follow the table, Agility is overwhelmingly your best stat. As for reforging, you should work on picking up hit to yellow hit cap (should be easy) and capping expertise. Any extra points you have after this should go into haste.

Is there any plan to add information about combat specific add-ons, I know there is a pretty good UI thread already but it is a bit broad as it doesn't relate specifically to combat. For example I use slice commander because its compact and fits nicely beneath my characters feet and allows an at a glance look at my energy and time remaining on SnD, it’s a functional add-on but out of date. I switched mains for Cataclysm so I am still getting up to speed with competitive rogue play and have not found ideal add-ons to date. Nice thread, thank you for the information and hard work.


Waitnbleed, I think originally I was going to just post add-ons that were spec specific but I think useful mods that fit that description are far and few in between. I will post a few add-ons that I find helpful (even if they belong on both guides) and take some suggestions (but not too many, I don't really want every rogue mod in existence posted and to keep the discussion focused on the playing, mechanics, and gearing of a rogue).

#34 themapples

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Posted 23 December 2010 - 08:58 PM

the only thoughts that i have are on Recuperate vs Reinforced Leather. The damage reduction is about the same, with one very significant difference, namely that Recuperate takes care of all types of damage.

However Reinforced Leather is a passive ability, Recuperate will take off from combo points that are used for DPS. So one the one hand you get an *overall* reduction is damge but with a DPS cost, whereas on the other you just cover your physical damage and maintain your DPS.

I do not know how this might change, if at all, at higher gear levels.
Perhaps its worth looking at the availability of non-physical damage reduction/avoidance offered by CoS and the pumped up Feint which cuts AOE by 50%. So with these in hand, perhaps Recuparate and Reinforced Leather might be a bit more even.

#35 fadedtimes

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Posted 23 December 2010 - 09:36 PM

the only thoughts that i have are on Recuperate vs Reinforced Leather. The damage reduction is about the same, with one very significant difference, namely that Recuperate takes care of all types of damage.

However Reinforced Leather is a passive ability, Recuperate will take off from combo points that are used for DPS. So one the one hand you get an *overall* reduction is damge but with a DPS cost, whereas on the other you just cover your physical damage and maintain your DPS.

I do not know how this might change, if at all, at higher gear levels.
Perhaps its worth looking at the availability of non-physical damage reduction/avoidance offered by CoS and the pumped up Feint which cuts AOE by 50%. So with these in hand, perhaps Recuparate and Reinforced Leather might be a bit more even.


From a raiding perspective reinforced leather is very poor, because rogues do not take or should not take physical damage. I agree with this guides explanation.

Recuperate does cost the rogue dps when used, but at some points in raids it is better to be alive doing lower dps, than to be dead doing 0 dps. When I was speced combat I took improved recuperate and used it on certain raid encounters.
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#36 Aldriana

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Posted 23 December 2010 - 09:46 PM

I think the real point is that neither of them is that good. Recuperate is such a small heal with for such a large damage loss that its only rarely worth using; however, Reinforced Leather defends only against a type of damage that we really shouldn't be taking very often anyway, so isn't particularly useful either. And most of the rest of the tree isn't much better - the strongest PvE talent in the tree is probably Improved Sprint, about which GC once said:

Improved Sprint I will grant you doesn't have a lot of use in PvE.


Which is a pretty good reflection on just how useless the tree's filler is across the board. You can make a perfectly reasonable argument for almost any talent in the tree purely by virtue of the fact that *none* of them give meaningful advantages.

#37 Flaer02

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Posted 23 December 2010 - 10:37 PM

I don't think anyone is taking Imp. Recuperate for the heal, the benefit is all in the reduced damage taken while it's active. If there's big magic AoE coming you could significantly reduce your damage taken by using Feint and a 1CP Recuperate.

#38 Aldriana

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Posted 23 December 2010 - 11:11 PM

Sure. My point is that 6% isn't a large damage reduction, particularly on top of a feint. Assuming, say, a 50k AoE, you reduce it to 25k via feint and 2/2 Improved Recuperate thus gives you an extra 1500 damage reduction. If we further posit that you have about 120k HP raid buffed, the two ticks of Recuperate will also heal you for about 7200 HP, giving a total benefit of a bit under 9k healing/damage reduction.

Of course, two ticks of a Dense Embersilk Bandage will heal 80% as much, faster, for similar personal DPS loss, meaning that its a 2 point talent that makes Recuperate about as good as bandaging. You'll pardon me if I refrain from characterizing that as a good talent.

#39 Flaer02

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Posted 23 December 2010 - 11:43 PM

You'll pardon me if I refrain from characterizing that as a good talent.


I agree it's not stellar, I was arguing more for taking it over the other filler options which as you've pointed out are fairly bland/sub-par.

#40 themapples

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Posted 24 December 2010 - 12:34 AM

yes, bandage too, I found renewed use for :)

They are definately both fillers. Sprint too is usefull mostly defensively. I didnt used to be worried abt running before WotLK. But then, for Sindragosa for example, I found that if I was 2 seconds too late, in starting to run before the AOE hit, I had no chance making it out of the AOEs sphere.
The speed boost available in the Assasination spec might be a decisive point for some. Quickening (which also gives a 20% all-healing bonus) is passive too and comined with Sprint can be "forgiving", in situations where a yard too late can hit for 50k damage. Combined with Nightstalker it yields stealthed movement near as fast as the standard speed of other classes.
Also a small perhaps rare situational benefit, Nightstalker adds to the value of Overkill as well, as often, at the end of a multiple adds or random ground damage (spots, vortexes) phase where everyone is sometimes spread out, you would otherwise forgo to stealth back on the boss, as the time wasted by the slower stealth movement, would decrease dps (by increasing time).




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