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Destruction in Cataclysm (4.3 Release)


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#21 Zakalwe

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 11:13 PM

In addition to using Fel Flame on the move, there are times when it is better than recasting Immo. Simcraft cannot account for many scenarios one faces during an encounter.

This isn't true at all - the simulator can and does account for the situation you describe, and if you want to simulate your solution to it (casting fel flame) all you have to do is come up with the right action priority list.

#22 Elmi

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Posted 23 December 2010 - 03:24 AM

If you have at least 2 Warlocks in your Raid it could be well worth keeping DI in the family.
Assuming my maths are correct, the 50% extra tick Haste value is reduced from 2639 to 2189 having two DIs, which is far easier to obtain at the moment.

Simcraft isnt yet offering an option for an extra DI so i cant check if its worth sacrificing the possible 9% DoT damage Buff uptime for the 3% extra Haste, I'd appreciate if someone could do the maths on this one.

In addition I'd like to know to what extend it would be beneficial to sacrifice hit for haste to get to the 50% "cap".

#23 Jmickey

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Posted 23 December 2010 - 03:38 AM

If you have at least 2 Warlocks in your Raid it could be well worth keeping DI in the family.
Assuming my maths are correct, the 50% extra tick Haste value is reduced from 2639 to 2189 having two DIs, which is far easier to obtain at the moment.

Simcraft isnt yet offering an option for an extra DI so i cant check if its worth sacrificing the possible 9% DoT damage Buff uptime for the 3% extra Haste, I'd appreciate if someone could do the maths on this one.

In addition I'd like to know to what extend it would be beneficial to sacrifice hit for haste to get to the 50% "cap".


Swapping Dark Intent between warlocks is effectively a waste. The buff cannot stack past 3, in a any situation. This means that while 2 warlocks are swapping Dark Intent, 2x9% extra period damage is going to waste. The 3% extra haste is nice, but it would never be viable in a raid situation.

#24 Elmi

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Posted 23 December 2010 - 05:03 AM

Swapping Dark Intent between warlocks is effectively a waste. The buff cannot stack past 3, in a any situation. This means that while 2 warlocks are swapping Dark Intent, 2x9% extra period damage is going to waste. The 3% extra haste is nice, but it would never be viable in a raid situation.


First of all the whole theory in the mmo-champ DI thread is based on 372BiS gear and ideal conditions which dont apply to current raids on which my post is based.
Destro DI application uptime is in most fights more about 60-80% at my 353 ilvl gear and not like the stated 90% and certainly not with an average of 3 stacks. (Numbers taken out of WoL parses of current 25man Raid encounters of the past two weeks)

Secondly only the pDPS gain of Shadows (1470), Fire Mages (600), Ferals (780) and MM Hunter (840) would exceed the extra tick pDPS gain of a Destro, which is about 400DPS.
And consider here that the pDPS gain of these classes at the moment would be way lower than estimated because of the lower application uptime of the Buff and because of the huge gear-difference.
For example (at least in my raid) are Shadows about 4-6k and Mages and Ferals about 2k below the Warlocks in DPS and not about the same like in the mmo-champs thread.

TL: DR:
Are you really sure that the rDPS gain of a DI on a not-Warlock on current raiding conditions exceeds the gain of a DI share between WLs for two times the 50% extra Tick?

#25 chotokukyan

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Posted 23 December 2010 - 03:13 PM

In regards to haste thresholds:

To reach the 30% point without the 5% caster haste buff - ((1.30/1.15/1.03)-1)*12805 = 1248.6

I'm curious as to how stat weights behave around this threshold, and if it would be beneficial (assuming you plan to raid 10 man without the 5% buff) to shoot for this number and then start stacking crit. In this tier, since it's quite difficult to reach the 50% threshould at 2639 while not in BiS, would 1248 be a better number to shoot for?

#26 Angyarr

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Posted 23 December 2010 - 11:28 PM

This line:

/petattack [target=target, exists]

Is the line that will cause the imp to start attacking. The rule is to prevent the macro causing you to auto target mobs if you current target dies and have you imp begin attacking it.


Don't know if it's a bug on my side but I needed to put ..exists]; firebolt (so with semicolon) to make it work otherwise the imp part won't fire up.

#27 Daellia

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Posted 24 December 2010 - 02:35 AM

Don't know if it's a bug on my side but I needed to put ..exists]; firebolt (so with semicolon) to make it work otherwise the imp part won't fire up.


That makes it effectively a dead conditional. IE. it will cast firebolt regardless, completely negating the point of the conditional in the first place. That said, I tend to prefer a /cast [@pettarget,exists] Firebolt, as that will do the same thing, and won't force my pet to attack my target if for some reason I want it to be attacking a different target instead. It also won't force-start my pet's attack, if I for some reason don't want it to be attacking.

#28 Desdemonique

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Posted 24 December 2010 - 01:40 PM

Here's an easier (albeit, slightly annoying if you hate micro-managing) way of doing the pet macro:

Keep your Imp on Passive.
Bind the following macro to all the spells you use as Destruction, except any channeled spells:

#showtooltip SPELLNAME
/cast [pet:Imp] Firebolt
/cast SPELLNAME

For channeled spells, such as Rain of Fire (I also use this for Shadowflame, Shadowfury and Summon Infernal), you can macro the /petattack command to the spell, like so:

#showtooltip Rain of Fire
/petattack
/cast Rain of Fire

This not only exploits the latency cast for your pet - which effectively increases his DPS, and yours - but it also ensures that you won't have any more "WTF broke my Fear?!" moments courtesy of your Imp.

#29 Zakalwe

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Posted 24 December 2010 - 01:42 PM

Except that macro will make your imp run up and attack the boss while you're precasting soul fire during the pull countdown, potentially getting him killed and at the very least annoying everyone who's trying to min-max their prepot time.

#30 Guest_Alduin_*

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Posted 24 December 2010 - 01:48 PM

Nice piece of work. Keep on working!

Just some additions from my side to make it a little bit better for players who really want to improve their play (regarding heroics). I see many warlocks (in random groups) who do not utilized Shadow and Flame, Curses, Banes and Shadow Fury as much as they should do. So, a nice introduction or placing them before the "real spell rotation" in brackets instead of a foot note would be nice.

Note to Curses (more general):
If you don't have a plague DK, moonkin or assassination rogue you should put Curse of the Elements, else you can provide Curse of Tongues on caster mobs providing a bigger window of reaction or Curse of Weakness on melee mobs which means a -10% physical damage and provides nice damage reduction to your tanks (yes they hopefully have already specced into their damage reduction on their own).

About Banes (right use of Bane of Havoc):
I do not know, why Bane of Doom should be so much better than Bane of Havoc. Especially on add heavy fights the Bane of Havoc (should) provide better DPS through to AE abilities (if you have 7 adds you do 7*15% of the damage to the baned as well, this should easily be better than Bane of Doom. And on groups of 3-5 mobs you can bane one with BoH, a second with BoD and the rest with Bane of Agony (since BoH and BoD can only be active on ONE target at any time). Perhaps there could be a side note about it. I just know that on add heavy fights most of the warlocks tend to bane the main target and not splitting their damage onto the others.
It provide a nice 2000DPS on Ogrimmar test dummies (BoH on the boss, BoD on a level 70 and 2x BoA) over 24seconds for 4mins at all (costing 3000mana BoH, 4x 2000mana BoD and 20x 2000mana BoA, 51k mana at all).

About Corruption:
Not used as much as needed. It is better then Chaos Bolt or Incinerate (damage-wise) and should be used more frequently. Many destruction locks do not use it or clip it (see affliction thread for further information).

Imp's Singe:
Magical dispel, makes it easier for the healer, costs 2400 demon mana (which can easily be refund by Mana Feed). Nice to use if the healer runs out of mana/lack of dispelling in heroics (I had to change my UI to implement a debuff tool)

Banish (general):
Usable on demon's (nice on demonic pet too) and elementals. You can use a second banish to cancel the effect. Only one banish at any time. (should perhaps be feature too)

Netherward:
In my humble opinion this one is totally underrated in heroics and raids on magic heavy encounters. It absorbs damage and reduces incoming damage of the same school by 30%. It's so good too use in void zones or similiar effects or before AE shadowbolts but I still see many warlocks who take 15-30k damage. With Netherward it would be around 8k maximum. It should totally be featured in a destruction warlock guide.



Back to some general discussion.

Dark Intent (more general):
A new buff at level 83 providing 3% haste (aka 306haste rating) and provides 3% increased periodic damage/healing. It is not as good as it is for afflicition locks but should be used either on those (if they are not haste capped), healing druids (so many hots) and then onto other classes except melees (perhaps on DK but warrior, rogue and paladin do not gain much periodic damage of it). If no other classes are around you can use it on your Imp, providing some nice synergy with Burning Ember. I would like to see some calculations which class it is best to use on and what the Imp gains from it.

Fear Glyph (major):
It is a non-damage glyph but perhaps the best glyph we got with Cata due to its huge value in heroic instances. It adds a "cover" effect on your fear, making your target stay in place and not running through the instance and pulling other groups thus giving us a stable CC effect (like Sheep or Hex) on a 5 sec CD.

Glyph of Soul Link (major):
Not the best choice but sharing 5% additional with your pet can be very good in AE situations (and you heal your pet via damage thus costing no healer mana).

Glyph of Shadow Bolt (major):
Not a very good choice but should be considered regarding Shadow and Flame debuffing. Would not recommend it.

Glyph of Ritual of Souls (minor):
Very good because 70% percent less mana (of 14k), makes Ritual of Souls usable in combat, too (very very high level...)

Macros:

The Imp macro is very nice. I would add two other macros, too. But first: You should macro your Immolate, Incinerate, Conflagerate and Chaosbolt to a) add the Imp macro B) add the /cast Demon Soul and /cast <trinkets>. It provides better use and you do not have to care about 4 additional CDs (once there was a calculation about using trinkets etc during heroism/blood lust or not, the dps was exactly the same, so bind it to your spells instead of waiting).

#showtooltip Soul Burn (this shows your Soul Burn CD)
/cast Soul Burn (you can use a [mod: <modifier>] if you do not like the idea of two Soul Fire in a row due to Empowered Imp)
/cast Soul Fire

This macro disables your pet so it will not cast Firebolt on any Sheeps, Frogs, Penguins or CC'd targets. You either need to use /petdefensive or a /petattack in your offensive macros. I use it in Bane of Doom/Curse of Elements/Immolate so it will attack the focus target.

#showtooltip Fear
/petpassive
/cast Fear

#31 Scaron

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Posted 24 December 2010 - 03:32 PM

I've been wondering about the +50 haste glove enchant. I'm recollecting that if we're not needing to hit a haste threshold immediately, the value of haste drops dramatically. That fact gives rise to this question: Are there points at which we would get more value from the old Wrath enchant +28 spell power to gloves?

#32 Zerio

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Posted 24 December 2010 - 06:52 PM

If Immolate crits while Demon Soul is active, is it better to refresh Immolate via Fel Flame versus hardcasting it and losing the extra dmg from Immolate ticking?

#33 Keelyu

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Posted 24 December 2010 - 07:28 PM

First I would like to comment on Dark Intent, I frequently run with a Resto Druid whose Mastery innately triggers DI every HoT that he casts.

Second, it seems that the Chaotic Shadowspirit Diamond still requires more blues than reds. However I have been doing some gear calculations and with Hit now being a stat for blue gems it seems relatively necessary to gem blues to reach the hit cap unless you would rather miss out on some of your enchants. Personally I have been looking at the green lightning cuts for haste/hit in particular and many of the better pieces of gear get decent socket bonuses for blue or yellow gems. Shadowflame Hood gains +30 crit, Shadowflame Robes gains +20 intellect, and Shadowflame Legwraps also gain +20 Int. I think that each of these bonuses, while considering the need to reach the hit cap, are worth gemming for the socket bonuses and thus meeting the requirements of the meta gem.

#34 Desdemonique

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Posted 24 December 2010 - 11:21 PM

Except that macro will make your imp run up and attack the boss while you're precasting soul fire during the pull countdown, potentially getting him killed and at the very least annoying everyone who's trying to min-max their prepot time.


Not an issue for me, either, since I use the Soulburn+Soul Harvest trick pre-combat (which my Imp's Firebolt is not bound to), which queues up an insta-Soul Fire and keeps me at full Soul Shards for the boss fight.

#35 VoidStar

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Posted 26 December 2010 - 01:08 AM

Dark Intent (more general):
A new buff at level 83 providing 3% haste (aka 306haste rating) and provides 3% increased periodic damage/healing. It is not as good as it is for afflicition locks but should be used either on those (if they are not haste capped), healing druids (so many hots) and then onto other classes except melees (perhaps on DK but warrior, rogue and paladin do not gain much periodic damage of it). If no other classes are around you can use it on your Imp, providing some nice synergy with Burning Ember. I would like to see some calculations which class it is best to use on and what the Imp gains from it.


There's a post on MMO-Champion that succinctly lists some findings about the relative worth of Dark Intent targets in the raid. You'll notice that Feral Druids are actually a very good target: it's got nothing to do with caster/melee and everything to do with the amount of damage the target derives from their DoTs and haste. Healers are listed in how well they proc the bonus for us.

You'll also be saddened to learn that while you can put Dark Intent on your Imp, Burning Embers will not proc it because (despite what you might imagine) it's actually one of your DoTs that the Imp can proc, so the imp doesn't actually have any DoT effects. If you're solo then putting on your pet is fine, but any party member is almost certainly a better target.

But first: You should macro your Immolate, Incinerate, Conflagerate and Chaosbolt to a) add the Imp macro B) add the /cast Demon Soul and /cast <trinkets>. It provides better use and you do not have to care about 4 additional CDs (once there was a calculation about using trinkets etc during heroism/blood lust or not, the dps was exactly the same, so bind it to your spells instead of waiting).


I'm not sure where you read that using cooldowns separately was the same as using them together, but it's quite easy to show that this is not the case. Imagine I can do 100 dps unbuffed and I have two buffs that each cause me to deal 50% extra damage for 10 seconds. The fight is 20 seconds long.

Sitation A: Use both buffs at once, for 10 seconds I do 100*1.5*1.5=225dps and for 10 seconds I do 100dps, so in total I do 3250 damage.

Situation B: Use the buffs sequentially, I do 100*1.5=150dps for 20 seconds, so in total I do 3000 damage.

I don't know about you, but Situatiion A looks better than Situation B to me.

#36 pelux

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Posted 26 December 2010 - 02:38 AM

While it is true that there is no longer any reason to wait for bloodlust to use trinkets and CDs since ISF was introduced, some fights have mechanics that promote good timing in their use; they should not be macroed with other spells you use in the normal rotation.

#37 Zlazher

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Posted 26 December 2010 - 03:51 AM

I just used simulationcraft for my character (Lazermon @ Al'Akir - Game - World of Warcraft) and i noted one thing. When looking at the scale factors, i found that mastery had passed haste in value for me. Does someone have an explanation to why this can happen? my haste right now is 1382, nowhere near the 2 haste thresholds.

(This isnt the first time i simulated my character, but it is the first time haste is the worst stat for me)

#38 Guest_Alduin_*

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Posted 26 December 2010 - 04:38 PM

There's a post on MMO-Champion that succinctly lists some findings about the relative worth of Dark Intent targets in the raid. You'll notice that Feral Druids are actually a very good target: it's got nothing to do with caster/melee and everything to do with the amount of damage the target derives from their DoTs and haste. Healers are listed in how well they proc the bonus for us.

You'll also be saddened to learn that while you can put Dark Intent on your Imp, Burning Embers will not proc it because (despite what you might imagine) it's actually one of your DoTs that the Imp can proc, so the imp doesn't actually have any DoT effects. If you're solo then putting on your pet is fine, but any party member is almost certainly a better target.



I'm not sure where you read that using cooldowns separately was the same as using them together, but it's quite easy to show that this is not the case. Imagine I can do 100 dps unbuffed and I have two buffs that each cause me to deal 50% extra damage for 10 seconds. The fight is 20 seconds long.

Sitation A: Use both buffs at once, for 10 seconds I do 100*1.5*1.5=225dps and for 10 seconds I do 100dps, so in total I do 3250 damage.

Situation B: Use the buffs sequentially, I do 100*1.5=150dps for 20 seconds, so in total I do 3000 damage.

I don't know about you, but Situatiion A looks better than Situation B to me.


Ok, let me explain both points a little bit more. I did read that post on mmo sometime ago but it does not cover the Dark Intent mechanic enough. 1) He does not offer the math behind it. E.g. he regards healers on their "crits per minutes" and not if they benefit from either the 3% haste or the 9% extra healing. 2) He does not cover inter-warlock action. Did you see where he lists a demo warlock buffing an affliction? 3) (and this is the critical point with the new haste mechanic to most of the dot classes) How does he calculate a "near-cap" caster like an affliction warlock who only needs additional 3% to get to the next haste cap? 4) And last but not least his calculation in damage increase is only dot related. In his example it's a 8.99% damage increase in _one_ dot and NOT overall.

In short: I wouldn't give it to a Shadow Priest if I had an Affliction Warlock who needs 3% Haste to gain extra ticks for his dots (the post is good, but doesn't cover the whole Dark Intent mechanic.)



To the second part. I said that using trinkets, procs and "on use" items like engineering enchants as often as possible results in the highest possible dps instead of waiting to use them during bloodlust/heroism. Some people tend to "save it up" for burst phases of a fight which doesn't result in higher overall dps (you can use your pots etc during bloodlust however). If you can use your trinkets/procs during bloodlust, it's nice, but you should not wait just to use them during it.

#39 Tinava

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Posted 27 December 2010 - 04:22 AM

Did you have a recommended macro for using Soulburn/Soul Harvest on boss pulls? Forgive me if I'm blind and not seeing it in the original post.

#40 zarusa

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Posted 27 December 2010 - 04:54 AM

Although i may risk breaking the "do not answer retard posts " - policy i point out which is quite obvious; there is no macro, he probably just meant the usual behaviour of using soulburn <15 seconds prefight; then using harvest soul to gain that shard back to start the fight with an instant soulfire + have an extra shard




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