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Destruction in Cataclysm (4.3 Release)


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#41 Guest_Alduin_*

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Posted 27 December 2010 - 09:03 AM

Could be something like

/cast Soulburn
/cast Soul Harvest

But then you should probably use a
Pot
CotE (in combat)
Shadowbolt (1.5sec)
SoulFire (1.5sec + SB casting time)
combination for debuffs and max Soul Fire damage. I would also recommend to cancel Soul Harvest after the shard was regained and use it ~5-10sec pre combat.

#42 croz

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Posted 27 December 2010 - 10:32 AM

Immo Bane of Havoc should not be optional but required. A (theoretical) 15% dps increase on several raid encounters make it mandatory to me. E.g. the first 2 encounters in Bastion of Twilight really lend themselves to exploiting Bane of Havoc.

#43 Saufsoldat

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Posted 27 December 2010 - 05:18 PM

I'm not 100% sure how BoH behaces with Rain of Fire, the last thing I heard was that it will only deal the damage to the baned target as if you used RoF on one target. Is this still correct or has it been fixed to apply 15% of the full AoE damage?

Anyway, here are the encounters in which BoH boosts your DPS:

Halfus Wyrmbreaker: On Halfus until both drakes are downed.
Theralion and Valiona: Obvious, put it on whichever dragon is in the air.
Ascendant Council: Put it on the one you're not DPSing, until Phase 3.
Cho'gall: Depends on your raid's DPS, but I spend a good chunk of time DPSing the tentacles in Phase 2, put it on Cho'gall at that point.

Council of Wind: Pretty obvious, put it on one of the bosses, that you don't DPS.
Al'akir: BoD all the way.

Magmaw: Put it on his exposed head shortly before the chain phase ends.
Omnotron: Put it on a boss when he reaches 50 energy and you switch target, expect for Magmatron, because BoH WILL break his shield.
Maloriak: Depends on your strategy, if you just AoE the adds in the green phase, stick with BoD.
Chimaeron: BoD
Atramedes: BoD
Nefarian: Depends on your strategy, but generally I wouldn't advise using BoH as you could accidentally set off the Lightning Machine.

That's 7/12 in which you'll have a definite DPS increase and a few maybes. I'm not sure why it's always treated like an optional talent.

#44 Desdemonique

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Posted 27 December 2010 - 11:28 PM

he probably just meant the usual behaviour of using soulburn <15 seconds prefight; then using harvest soul to gain that shard back to start the fight with an instant soulfire + have an extra shard


Yes, she did mean that. ;) Our tanks tend to give us a countdown prior to pull, which helps immensely and makes this a bit more viable to do pre-combat.

#45 zarusa

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Posted 28 December 2010 - 02:59 AM

I'm not 100% sure how BoH behaces with Rain of Fire, the last thing I heard was that it will only deal the damage to the baned target as if you used RoF on one target. Is this still correct or has it been fixed to apply 15% of the full AoE damage?

Anyway, here are the encounters in which BoH boosts your DPS:

Halfus Wyrmbreaker: On Halfus until both drakes are downed.
Theralion and Valiona: Obvious, put it on whichever dragon is in the air.
Ascendant Council: Put it on the one you're not DPSing, until Phase 3.
Cho'gall: Depends on your raid's DPS, but I spend a good chunk of time DPSing the tentacles in Phase 2, put it on Cho'gall at that point.

Council of Wind: Pretty obvious, put it on one of the bosses, that you don't DPS.
Al'akir: BoD all the way.

Magmaw: Put it on his exposed head shortly before the chain phase ends.
Omnotron: Put it on a boss when he reaches 50 energy and you switch target, expect for Magmatron, because BoH WILL break his shield.
Maloriak: Depends on your strategy, if you just AoE the adds in the green phase, stick with BoD.
Chimaeron: BoD
Atramedes: BoD
Nefarian: Depends on your strategy, but generally I wouldn't advise using BoH as you could accidentally set off the Lightning Machine.

That's 7/12 in which you'll have a definite DPS increase and a few maybes. I'm not sure why it's always treated like an optional talent.


On Maloriak BoH is a dps increase when used shortly before every "green phase" because your dealing massive aoe dmg (shadowflame+rain of fire+[does infernal awakening transfer to BoH?]).
In 10 mans BoH deals about 200000 dmg every 9-mob green phase which is better than BoD by a far margin.

#46 Modibybob

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Posted 28 December 2010 - 01:37 PM

Ghostcrawler:

- We are probably going to remove Drain Mana from warlocks. It is incredibly situational in PvE but causes problems in PvP. This might mean we need to evaluate Mana Burn as well.
- Inferno will no longer increase the radius of Hellfire.
- Shadow and Flame can now proc from Incinerate in addition to Shadow Bolt.
- We want to redesign Improved Soulfire.


I was very happy to see these upcoming changes this morning. No more casting shadow bolt simply for debuff purposes. As far as redesigning improved soulfire, hopefully the mechanic of this talent is applied to Fel Flame, as it would give us a reason to actually use it besides moving around.

#47 theboldaedum

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Posted 28 December 2010 - 02:28 PM

Omnotron: Put it on a boss when he reaches 50 energy and you switch target, expect for Magmatron, because BoH WILL break his shield.


I was under the impression that damage to any of the bosses after they raise a shield in that fight, not just magmatron, would most likely break the shield?

#48 croz

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Posted 28 December 2010 - 03:04 PM

With interest I have read your (very recent) advice to prioritize crit over haste. However when I look at your profile I can see how you prioritize haste over crit?

Would you care to elaborate on your personal choice to do so even though you are nowhere near the 50% haste treshold? Does your guide allready need an update? It's a bit odd to see you change your mind so quickly even more so because I've gemmed/reforged towards crit.:keke:

Another question I have is why maxdps.com, which also applies quite accurate dps models, in various gear setups prioritizes mastery over haste/crit. Are they missing out on something, are they applying an approach which is to theoretical or are we not giving mastery enough credit?

#49 Zakalwe

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Posted 28 December 2010 - 03:06 PM

maxdps.com, which also applies quite accurate dps models

What in the world would make you claim this?

#50 croz

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Posted 28 December 2010 - 03:55 PM

What in the world would make you claim this?

Let's make it clear that I wasn't actually claiming that they are anywhere near as accurate as EJ spreadsheets. However in the past they've proven to be fairly accurate(ish) when comparing to WWS reports in the past. I find EJ statistics higly reliable and maxdps moderately reliable because I'm quite sure they don't account enough for procs etc. I'm just trying to find out what I should be prioritizing while having several sources of information to create a critical view.

The things which bothers me are:
- Why would maxdps ever value mastery over crit/haste? What are they missing in their models? Should I completely ignore maxdps because they are blatantly wrong?
- Why is crit suddenly ranked so high on the ladder according to this guide and why is the OP not applying his own rules?

I don't want to point fingers, that's not my intention. I would just like to get a deeper insight in our stats and I'm assuming the OP stumbled on something (haste>crit) and I would just like to know what/why.

#51 Saufsoldat

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Posted 28 December 2010 - 04:41 PM

I was under the impression that damage to any of the bosses after they raise a shield in that fight, not just magmatron, would most likely break the shield?


The other shield are not shields in the actual sense of the word. Magmatrons shield is a real shield in that it absorbs damage and eventually breaks (which results in a heavy aoe burst which usually kills at least one person). The defense mechanisms of the others are along the lines of "when attacked applies buff/debuff XYZ to attacker/boss". BoH, dot ticks and pet attacks do not count as a direct attacks and will therefore not set off the other shields.

#52 dotcow

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Posted 29 December 2010 - 07:31 AM

If I am trying to calculate how much haste I need to reach 50% for the 3rd tick of immolate, would this be the right equation?

(((1.50 / 1.15 (improved soul fire) / 1.05 (raid) / 1.06 (2x dark intents swapping with another warlock) / 1.01 (goblin racial)) - 1) * 12805 = 2052.86 haste rating

#53 Zakalwe

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Posted 29 December 2010 - 11:51 AM

If I am trying to calculate how much haste I need to reach 50% for the 3rd tick of immolate, would this be the right equation?

(((1.50 / 1.15 (improved soul fire) / 1.05 (raid) / 1.06 (2x dark intents swapping with another warlock) / 1.01 (goblin racial)) - 1) * 12805 = 2052.86 haste rating

It's the right equation if two dark intents stack additively rather than multiplicatively. I don't know if that's true, but the point is moot, since you should *never* swap dark intent with another warlock.

#54 Raykee

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Posted 29 December 2010 - 11:55 AM

If I am trying to calculate how much haste I need to reach 50% for the 3rd tick of immolate, would this be the right equation?

(((1.50 / 1.15 (improved soul fire) / 1.05 (raid) / 1.06 (2x dark intents swapping with another warlock) / 1.01 (goblin racial)) - 1) * 12805 = 2052.86 haste rating


Almost, Dark Intent doesn't stack though. The haste stacks, but the 9% dmg doesn't therefor you should try not to do it.

So it will be ( (1.50 / 1.15 / 1.05 / 1.03 / 1.01) -1) * 12805 = 2485ish

edit: Zakalwe beat me to it :) Dark Intent - The Guide (2010/12/24) nice guide for Dark Intent btw. (might be worth checking out and perhaps include it in the start post)

#55 Keldion

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Posted 29 December 2010 - 02:43 PM

I would stake a wager that you're going to need exactly 2482 haste for your 8th immolate tick as a goblin, and 2635 if you are not a goblin. I am noticing a pattern of haste-modified tick speed being rounded to 4 significant digits.

Also, 2635 is the amount of haste at which I was able to achieve an 8th tick through testing.


EDIT: To expand on the notion, let's look back at the observed behavior of 580 haste NOT granting our extra tick. In theory, we need (1.3 / 1.15 / 1.05 / 1.03) = 4.524714% bonus haste to reach that milestone, which maths out to 579.42 haste rating.

Let's look at what the tick speed is at this haste level - that's the amount we need for the bonus tick.
(3 / 1.3) = 2.3076923.

At 580 haste rating, nongoblins would theoretically have enough to clinch that extra tick. However, it's getting rounded up.
(3 / 1.3000562) = 2.3075925, or 2.308. We are just too slow to get that extra tick at this point.

Let's check it again at 581.
(3 / 1.3001533) = 2.3074202, which now rounds down to 2.307.


EDIT EDIT: If you're a goblin, your 7th immolate tick should be observed at 448 haste rating. I will slap together a spreadsheet calculation once I finish with work.

EDIT EDIT EDIT: Rough draft of the spreadsheet is done! Yell at me in a PM if something is inaccurate.

#56 victorfrogg

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Posted 29 December 2010 - 03:09 PM

Hi, i've been following both this thread and the Demonology thread for a while, and decided I would like to contribute. The following is a useful macro that I use in raids and instances before boss pulls. Left click simply channels Soul Harvest as normal, but on right click, it casts Soulburn and then channels Soul Harvest. If you leave the channel for three seconds (most likely less than that time, due to haste), you effectively get four soul shards for the remainder of the encounter, as you still have plenty of time to debuff the boss and consume the soulburn effect before it runs out.

#showtooltip Soul Harvest
/cast [btn:2] Soulburn
/cast Soul Harvest
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

#57 LilPixie

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Posted 29 December 2010 - 05:22 PM

First, thanks for the great guide Jmickey.

Second, most people are really concerned with the added advantages of reaching the haste thresholds in this expansion, but for warlocks still juggling a majority of blue pieces on their character, reaching those thresholds without sacrificing hit and crit is practically impossible. Is there any way of veering the discussion towards a manageable, easiER to attain ratio between haste and crit? (Sacrificing hit is off the table at this point, for raiding purposes, imo.)
Thanks (and I apologize in advance if this is a retarded post.)

#58 dotcow

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Posted 29 December 2010 - 05:43 PM

It's the right equation if two dark intents stack additively rather than multiplicatively. I don't know if that's true, but the point is moot, since you should *never* swap dark intent with another warlock.


Thanks, can anyone clarify if it does indeed stack additively rather than multiplicatively? the reason I ask is that the warlocks (we run with 4 including myself) insist on swapping the dark intent and since that's the case and being so close to the 50% threshold, I would like to find out the exact number needed for that extra tick at 50%.

#59 Tinava

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Posted 30 December 2010 - 02:44 PM

Yes, she did mean that. ;) Our tanks tend to give us a countdown prior to pull, which helps immensely and makes this a bit more viable to do pre-combat.


Yes, that is what I mean. I should have been more clear.

To give you an idea of why I asked, I am using a macro:

/castsequence reset=6 Soulburn, Soul Harvest

However, this has issues. For example, if I have no shards at all, the macro will stay on Soulburn, and not move to Soul Harvest, which is what I need at the time.

I guess I'm looking for a more elegant solution, and I figured the rest of us (which it appears already do this in some format) would benefit from it as well.

#60 Guest_Alduin_*

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Posted 31 December 2010 - 12:25 PM

Try your macro with a
/cast Soulburn
/cast Soul Harvest

instead. Since Soulburn is instant and does not trigger the GCD, it will allow the use of any ability directly afterwards. If in a /castsequence one condition/spell fails, the macro will stop at that point (e.g. silencing effects or like Soulburn out of shards). Using /cast should work.

I used a macro like:

#showtooltip Soulburn (works as CD monitor)
/castsequence reset = [mod:alt] Ritual of Summoning; Ritual of Souls, Life Tap (I took it out, but the idea is to use LT-SH to fill up mana and health precombat)
/cast Soulburn
/cast Soul Harvest
/use <pot>
//trinkets are bound in the Soulfire spell

But I had to take it out because the limited amount of macros and use 3 small buttons to klick them through precombat.




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