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Priest Healing Discussion: Cataclysm


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#241 onceler21

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 11:11 AM

I've done heroic 25 madness as both disc and holy, and I would definitely want the first priest to be disc. A second priest could be holy or disc, whichever they are more comfortable with. The advantages of a disc priest are:

(1) Cooldowns. Barrier vs hymn, both have their advantages and disadvantages (barrier will help the raid survive the initial hit where hymn will not, barrier requires the raid to stack up), but pain suppression vs guardian is a big win for disc. Impale hits so hard in 25man (1.2 million before mitigation) that you will need to stack 3-4 cooldowns for each one, and guardian spirit does nothing (impale ignores death immunity effects, and the hit after impale isn't an issue as the other tank will taunt while impale is casting). But a bigger advantage is

(2) Shields. When an impale is coming, the tank will be topped off and have their 3-4 cooldowns up, so that 50k+ power word: shield counts for a lot of extra effective health. While holy priests can still shield, their shields are less than half the size. Even if you have enough other cooldowns available to do without pain suppressions, there really is no substitute for those big power word: shields.

For most of the fight, both specs perform very similarly (asuming a raid healing role). There is enough raid damage even at the best of times to ensure divine aegis gets used up, and a lot of time is spent too spread out for sanctuary to be super effective (but the same holds for barrier). Coh smartness is nice, but the raid damage is very uniform (except for the corruption's crush ability, and if you ensure people are spread out by group then poh is still perfect for that) so that other healers' smart heals will be sufficient to ensure that nobody dips very far below the rest of the raid.

If you're having trouble with mana, disc is better (work that rapture, and you'll still be chain casting poh after the holy priest has run dry). If the raid needs a little more dps, disc is better (PI a caster, smite when damage is low). If you're more comfortable as holy, and there's already a disc priest in the raid, holy is better.

#242 Szeretlek

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 04:21 AM

According to Priest MoP Disscussion I checked how Burning and Revitilizing meta gems works with aegis and seems that famous Valen`s spreadsheet is wrong.

If you have some BaseHeal from PoH or from direct heal, your critical heal will be 2.06 times higher with those gems, but your aegis will be just CritHeal*(AegisValue*2), not CritHeal*(AegisValue*2.06).

For those who using spreadsheet, just delete this multiplier from formulas both for PoH-crits and direct_heals-crits.

I double checked it and it is 100% solid information =)

ADDED: I forget multiplier. Correct formula for CriticalHeal+Aegis=CritHeal*(AegisValue*2), where AegisValue=(1+0.3*Mastery)

#243 Polopretress

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Posted 30 May 2012 - 12:49 PM

Hello Szeretlek,

I am surprised by your formula because it is not like this that aegis is applicable normally.
i come back with TC formula on PoH, just to clarify my comment and correct yours :


(Without Meta + 3% Crit)

PoH = PoHh + Aegis = PoHh + PoHh * 30% * (100% + %Mast) = PoHh * (100% + 30% * (100% + %Mast))

PoHc = PoHch + 2* PoHch * 30% * (100% + % Mast)
where PoHch = 2* PoHh


==> PoHc = 2 PoHh * ( 100% + 2*30%* (100% + %Mast))

with PoHn = Base PoH * ( 100% + SP/Score SP) * DJ
(DJ = 6% if talent has been tacken)

When you add the Meta +3%, you will add 3% to critical heals, so normally, the correct formula is that
PoHch with Meta is = PoHch * (100% + %Meta)

==> PoHc with Meta = 2 PoHh * (100% + %Meta) * [ 100% + 2*30%* (100% + %Mast)]

By this formula, 2.06 is applied on the heal part of PoH and 4.12 is applied on the aegis part of PoH.
You said that aegis part is only 4.00.

I did not test in live but really, i am surprised because the aegis is calculated regarding the heal part of the PoH.

If you are true , the correct formula is :

==> PoHc with Meta = 2 PoHh * [ (100% + %Meta) + 2*30%* (100% + %Mast)]
with Aegis part = 4 PoHh * 30%* (100% + %Mast)


Nevertheless, the error made in the spreadsheet that you used (i have mine personaly !!!!) does not impact a lot the calculation of stat weight.
With my simulation, +100 stat Crit will have an impact less than 0,01% of HpS.(that means less than 0,2% for 2000 crit stat).
I will check on live if Meta is not operate on the Aegis part.

edit :
PoHc = Critical PoH
PoHh = heal part of PoH
PoHch = Heal part of critical PoH
% Mast = 2,5% * Mast point
Base PoH = 3174,9
Score SP = Base PoH/0,34/100 = 93,37941176

#244 Szeretlek

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Posted 30 May 2012 - 03:44 PM

I did not test in live but really, i am surprised because the aegis is calculated regarding the heal part of the PoH.

I tested it on live, yep.
Burning meta gem adds 3% to critical heal, but that +3% doesnt work to aegis part, when its calculated.
Agreed, that this is very minor miscalculation, but it is miscalculation anyway =)

#245 Polopretress

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 09:35 AM

Hum...

I am going to modifiy my simulator with this meta behavior.
It will not impact a lot the stat weight of crit stat compare to mastery and haste for PoH but i think , i can reconsider the use of this meta compare to the one wich add 2% of mana.

As PoH with the actual raid profil makes a lot of OverHealing in its heal part, the meta behavior can be reduced easely by 50% on this part.
It was not a problem for me since i thought that the aegis creates by critical heal was tacken into account the meta also.
But as it is not the case, i cannot have the 4.12 multiplier of aegis when there is a critical heal (which OH more than a normal PoH).

So choice for this meta is probably not the best choice even if disci does not need additional mana.

Your feeling about that ?

#246 Szeretlek

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 11:13 AM

So choice for this meta is probably not the best choice even if disci does not need additional mana.

Agreed, but you should think about the future (5.0.1 and further), where Disc will use Spirit Shell.
I just cant test meta gems in beta, because I cant craft it or buy it through AH.
If Burning Meta Gem will neither work with SS nor with Aegis - Ill reconsider its usage.
But +2% mana gem not so good too, because in MoP there are no mana regen ways which based on our max mana, so Its just +2000 mana with no additional benefits.
In Live +2% mana gives you +2% regen through Replenishment, Rapture, Archangel and such. It is very minor (~100-150mp5) so I dont use it.

#247 Polopretress

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 01:54 PM

true : 200 MP5 maximum for a fight of 5/6 min with my Ilvl (400).

If possible (it is not always possible) with reforge and tacking into account the spirit weight for cata, (~0,8 MP5), it can help to reduce 240 spirit to other stat and maintain the same regen.
Of course, it will not at all be the same exchange benefits for MoP since spirit stat weight for regen will be higher and regen manapool will be canceled.

#248 Polopretress

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Posted 06 June 2012 - 09:07 AM

I tested it on live, yep.
Burning meta gem adds 3% to critical heal, but that +3% doesnt work to aegis part, when its calculated.
Agreed, that this is very minor miscalculation, but it is miscalculation anyway =)


Not agree. I have tested yesterday in live and +3% is also applied to Aegis.
Did you test on MoP release or live release ?

Some examples i noted :

PoH on me without 3% Meta :
Normal heal / Aegis= 6360 / 2591 or 6411 / 2611
Critical heal / Aegis = 12839 / 10460 or 12771 / 10405


PoH on me with 3% Meta :

Normal heal / Aegis= 6358 / 2590 or 6440 / 2623
Critical heal / Aegis = 13115 / 10685 or 13087 / 10663


Check this result by formula ==>
I was no buff with
SP = 8518
%mastery = 2,5%*14,32 = 35,80%

PoH normal = PoH heal + PoH heal*30% * (1 + %mastery)
==> when you calculate aegis with PoH heal = 6360 / 6411 / 6358 / 6440 you find Aegis = 2591 / 2611 / 2590 / 2623
this is exactly the result i find in live !


formula for Critical PoH with Meta activated on heal AND Aegis parts.
PoH critical = 2*PoH heal * (1+ 3%meta) + 4 * POH heal * 30% * (1 + %mastery)*(1 + 3% meta)

We consider PoHch=2*PoH heal * (1+ 3%meta)

So PoH critical = PoHch + 2*PoHch*30%*(1 + %mastery)
==> when you calculate aegis with PoHch = 13115 / 13087 you find Aegis = 10686 / 10663
this is exactly the result i find in live !

So Meta is well taken into account in the Aegis and 4.12 multiplier is good.(4*[1 + 3%meta])

If meta was not take in Aegis , we would fount instead of heal/aegis = 13115 / 10685 the result 13115 / 10374.

edit :
of course, meta is not take twice on the Aegis. only once.
It is applied on heal which is used to calculate the aegis part but not a double time on the result of the Aegis because Aegis are never critical. It is only the result of a critical heal.

#249 Szeretlek

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Posted 06 June 2012 - 01:31 PM

formula for Critical PoH with Meta activated on heal AND Aegis parts.
PoH critical = 2*PoH heal * (1+ 3%meta) + 4 * POH heal * 30% * (1 + %mastery)*(1 + 3% meta)

Wrong.
Just tested it. I have 1.37361111 mastery coefficient.
I wear off weapon to avoid PT proc, so numbers may seem pretty low. Anyway I casted PoH until it crits and it crit for 13892 and it put 11449 aegis.
Lets calculate
13892*0.3*2*1.3736(1)=11449,3
So meta DEFINETELY does not work with aegis.
It works only for heal part as I said earlier

#250 Szeretlek

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Posted 06 June 2012 - 01:39 PM

Here are proofs. Russian language somewhere, but you will definitely understand what I want to say
Stats
Posted Image
Crit number from PoH
Posted Image
Aegis value
Posted Image

13946*0.3*2*1.3736111=11493,8
Meta gem doesnt work with aegis

And I have Burning meta gem and it works if you are in doubts =)

#251 Polopretress

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Posted 06 June 2012 - 01:48 PM

Wrong.
Just tested it. I have 1.37361111 mastery coefficient.
I wear off weapon to avoid PT proc, so numbers may seem pretty low. Anyway I casted PoH until it crits and it crit for 13892 and it put 11449 aegis.
Lets calculate
13892*0.3*2*1.3736(1)=11449,3
So meta DEFINETELY does not work with aegis.
It works only for heal part as I said earlier



You know, i can write extactly the same thing as you :

Wrong.
Just tested it. I have 1.3580 mastery coefficient.
I wear off weapon to avoid PT proc, so numbers may seem pretty low. Anyway I casted PoH until it crits and it crit for 13115 and it put 10685 aegis.
Lets calculate

13115*0.3*2*1.3580(1)=10686

The mistake you do in your conclusion is that 13892 you have in heal has already the coef +3% so the 3% is also reported in the Aegis since you use 13892 to calculate Aegis and this 13892 has already the +3% coef of the meta.
Correct formula is
PoH critical = PoHch + 2*PoHch*30%*(1 + %mastery)=2*PoH heal * (1+ 3%meta) + 4 * POH heal * 30% * (1 + %mastery)*(1 + 3% meta)



So meta DEFINETELY works with aegis and the coef is 4.12 of normal Aegis.

#252 Szeretlek

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Posted 06 June 2012 - 01:51 PM

I wrote it many times - it works only for heal part. When we calculate crit effect for heal part we have 2.06 crit coeff, not 2.00.
When we calculate aegis part we have 2.00 coeff, not 2.06 even we equip Burning meta gem.

Again, I wrote it in my original post, which you do not understand pretty well I guess.

Even you use 2.00 coeff for aegis crit effect which fully proves that meta gem effect doesnt work for aegis part.

-_-

P.S. If meta gem effect work with aegis critical effect we should see 2.06 crit coeff for heal part and 2.06 crit coeff for aegis part. But it doesnt work that way. It work like 2.06 for heal and 2.00 for aegis.
It is not rocket science.

#253 Polopretress

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Posted 06 June 2012 - 02:10 PM

ok, lets go with your attitude to not recognize when you make mistake....


Your example with screens on post #250 demonstratre exactly that 3%meta is well taken in Aegis value.


just take only one minute to verify that

POH (heal+absorb) critical = 2*PoH heal * (1+ 3%meta) + 4 * POH heal * 30% * (1 + %mastery)*(1 + 3% meta)

is correct .....and it would be fine !

in your example , heal part without meta is 13946 / 1.03 = 13539.8 wich is 2*6770 because critical.

If meta would not be on Aegis
Aegis would be 4*POH heal*30%*(1 + %Mastery) *(1)= 4*6770*30%*(1 + 14.94*2,5%)= 11 158 and not 11 493 as you have noted.
The mistake that you do , once again, is that you take already the heal part with +3% part.

4*POH heal*30%*(1 + %Mastery) *(1+3%)= 4*6770*30%*(1 + 14.94*2,5%)*(1+3%)= 11 493
That's all.

So meta DEFINETELY works with aegis and the coef is 4.12 of normal Aegis (it is written above)

#254 Szeretlek

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Posted 06 June 2012 - 02:13 PM

So meta DEFINETELY works with aegis and the coef is 4.12 of normal Aegis (it is written above)

My laste sentence on this topic:
If meta works with aegis, coef should be 4.2436, not 4.12. Think about that.
Thats all. Im done here

#255 Polopretress

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Posted 06 June 2012 - 02:37 PM

No with 4.2436 you double the effect of the méta on Aegis.

I think, we have misunderstanding problem.
3% is not applicable on the aegis after calculation of its value ( in that case, it would be 4.2436) but applicable on the heal which is used to create Aegis.

For Ever, formula is
PoH critical = PoHch + 2*PoHch*30%*(1 + %mastery)=2*PoH heal * (1+ 3%meta) + 4 * POH heal * 30% * (1 + %mastery)*(1 + 3% meta)

PoH critical = 2*PoH heal * (1+ 3%meta) * [ 100% + 2 * 30% * (1 + %mastery)]

Aegis part coef is 4.12

now , you can stay with your certitude but what we say is exactly the same except that 3%meta is taken in aegis because the heal which is used to calculate Aegis integrates already the 3% meta in its value.


edit : maybe, last chance to convince you :)

13946*0.3*2*1.3736111=11493,8
Meta gem doesnt work with aegis

I agree on your calculation but let me show you your error in your conclusion.

You use the formula CriticalAegis = (PoH critical heal with meta)*30%*2*(1+%mastery)

Which is correct because the value of (PoH critical heal with meta) is the heal that you see on screen when you equiped with meta.

Until this point , i hope that we are alright.

The value that you have for (PoH critical heal with meta) is higher than which you would have without meta.
In fact, of course : (PoH critical heal with meta) = (PoH critical heal without meta)*(1 + %meta)


That mean that Aegis formula can be converted to :

Critical Aegis = (PoH critical heal without meta)*(1 + %meta)*30%*2*(1+%mastery)

and if you are not equiped with meta , the formula is only :
Critical Aegis = (PoH critical heal without meta)**30%*2*(1+%mastery)

Conclusion : When you are equiped with meta, the valeur of aegis is higher than when you do not have it.
So Meta is tacken into account in the Aegis.


Even if your calculation are good , your conclusion is wrong because you do not compare with the same value of critical heal (PoH critical heal without meta and Aegis) and (PoH critical heal without meta).

The good conclusion can be also : there is no additionnal effect of the meta on the Aegis.(double counting)

#256 Snowy

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Posted 27 August 2012 - 10:27 PM

Because the Mists patch comes out tomorrow, this information is now obsolete and the thread will be closed. For the time being post questions in the MoP thread(s). New compendium posts will be coming as Mists itself gets into release.




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