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[Cataclysm] 4.3 Marksmanship Guide


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#41 ceelion22

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Posted 20 January 2011 - 04:22 PM

I just did a really quick test on the PTR with a premade hunter and removing AS in favor of a hardcasted AiS (still casting AiS when MMM procs) I got ~900 more dps than the test I did with AS and only MMM proc'd AiS.

It looked like WQ preferred to proc on my AS test whereas Piercing Shots was lower. In my hardcast AiS test they switched places with Piercing Shots becoming top 3-4 damage.


Of course the problem with hardcasting AiS is if you have to move your gonna lose all that damage

#42 babuka

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Posted 20 January 2011 - 05:13 PM

@ceelion
Did you test on a dummy or was it a raid environment? While AiS benefits from CA, AS does not so the numbers should be a bit off when shooting a dummy.

#43 ceelion22

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 12:14 AM

@ceelion
Did you test on a dummy or was it a raid environment? While AiS benefits from CA, AS does not so the numbers should be a bit off when shooting a dummy.


Yes it was on a dummy. Forgot about that.

#44 Neruse

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 04:35 AM

I'm still downloading the PTR, but from what I see from various other people's posts is that Aimed is possibly bugged and doing far more damage than 200% weapon + 72% RAP should be.

#45 Deepfriedegg

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 11:33 AM

@ceelion
Did you test on a dummy or was it a raid environment? While AiS benefits from CA, AS does not so the numbers should be a bit off when shooting a dummy.


This really needs to be tested in raid environment simply because how much Aimed Shot scales with raid buffs:

List of buffs that favour Aimed over Arcane:
-------------------------------------------------------
5% stats
Agi buff
10% AP buff (granted)
4% physical damage
30% bleed damage
5% crit (more PS damage)
10% attack speed
Hunter´s Mark (granted)
12% Armor reduction
Flask
Food
+ all dynamic haste buffs
+ all Agi, Crit, AP and Haste procs

List of buffs that favour Arcane over Aimed
------------------------------------------------
8% magical damage
+ all Mastery procs

#46 babuka

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 01:07 PM

I keep thinking that most probably Blizzard didn't intend to make hardcast AiS part of MM DPS...what's the point in MMM then other than PVP where you simply can't cast AiS.
In my opinion, if hardcasting AiS in PVE proves to be better than dumping focus with AS Blizzard will take action and fix that.

#47 Kaiten

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 01:32 PM

I keep thinking that most probably Blizzard didn't intend to make hardcast AiS part of MM DPS...what's the point in MMM then other than PVP where you simply can't cast AiS.


Erm, by that logic, what's the point of LnL then? One can argue that it's even less useful than MMM :) I agree on first part though, swing reset and no auto during cast hint that it's not really supposed to be in rotation per se.
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#48 Gutchewa

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 01:39 PM

I keep thinking that most probably Blizzard didn't intend to make hardcast AiS part of MM DPS...what's the point in MMM then other than PVP where you simply can't cast AiS.
In my opinion, if hardcasting AiS in PVE proves to be better than dumping focus with AS Blizzard will take action and fix that.


Why would it matter if one shot is used as a focus dump over another? Arcane Shot doesn't have a tag "must be used to dump all excess focus" if hardcasting Aimed Shot during a Careful Aim period proves better than dumping focus via Arcane I don't really see a problem with that.

#49 Guest_26thraider_*

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 05:15 PM

Why would it matter if one shot is used as a focus dump over another? Arcane Shot doesn't have a tag "must be used to dump all excess focus" if hardcasting Aimed Shot during a Careful Aim period proves better than dumping focus via Arcane I don't really see a problem with that.


There is a pretty significant difference between his general PvE comment and your CA comment. The first would undoubtedly lead to changes, the second only potentially. Just look at the buff to Arcane Shot, it wasn't implemented because it was a poor shot per se, but because people found it better to use Cobra Shot/Steady Shot during CA. And it was incidentally a really nice way to up the DPS of BM and MM without impacting SV much.

Anyway, does hardcasting Aimed remove the MMM stacks? If so, then you can bet your grand mother's jewelery that it will get changed so it isn't worth it.

#50 Whitefyst

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 09:47 PM

The post was removed, but I think it was a legitimate theorycrafting question. The question was since some of the T11 set gear does not have optimal stats, should we forgo the 4-set bonus for better gear.

Let's take a look at the gear comparisons using the non-heroic version of the gear (the heroic version analysis will be similar just with a little larger numbers) with the other same ilevel options of which I am aware. Keep in mind that although mastery is still less important than crit that the value of mastery is increaseing in 4.0.6. I also list the stat differences in priority order.

Helm

Arion's Crown (with agi gems): -10 agi, -70 crit, -168 mastery, +218 haste

The T11 helm is definitely much better.

Shoulders

Spaulders of the Scarred Lady: -149 hit, +169 crit, -20 mastery

I consider this basically a wash. Sure hit is better than crit, but hit should not be a problem, meaning that the excess would be reforged to crit preferrably.

Chest

Tunic of Failed Experiments: +228 hit, -40 mastery, -188 haste
Voltage Source Chestguard (with agi gems): -20 hit, +198 crit, -228 mastery, +30 haste
Dragonkiller Tunic (hope this gets a socket added as some of the other LW crafted gear has): -40 agi, -20 hit, -55 mastery, +71 haste

The current version of the Dragonkiller Tunic is definitely inferior to the T11 piece. Although its close, the Voltage Source Chestguard is probably a little inferior to the T11 piece after the buff to mastery. On the surface, the Tunic of Failed Experiments seems better since it has hit instead of mastery and haste, but it will probably be down reforging the hit to crit while the T11 up reforges the haste to crit to close the gap.

Hands

Proto-handler's Gauntlets (with agi gems): +10 agi, -20 hit, -20 crit, +169 mastery, -149 haste

These are a clear winner to me over the T11.

Legs

Starchaser Legguards of Stormblast (best stat version): +20 agi, +228 hit, -60 crit, -188 haste or +228 hit, -20 crit, -188 haste
Leggings of Lethal Force: +208 hit, -268 crit, +248 mastery, -188 haste
Arrowsinger Legguards: +185 hit, -268 crit, +261 mastery, -188 haste

All three seem better than the T11 legs.


Using full 359 gear in the analysis and making my best attempt at optimize reforging, I got the T11 4-set (without the legs) to be about 135 DPS better than just the T11 2-set (just head and shoulders) with the current game settings.

With the PTR settings, I got the t11 4-set to be about 520 DPS better. For the 4-set, I had just a little extra hit to reforge to crit or mastery, reforged a lot of haste to crit and mastery, and reforged some mastery to crit. For the 2-set case, I was way over hit cap and had to reforge it to crit and mastery. I was also short haste and had to reforge mastery into it. The benefit of being able to reduce our focus generating shot by 0.2s base cast time is big, even if we drop some haste and do not actually reduce the cast time by the full amount. We still end up with a faster SS cast under all conditions, which can reduce delays in CS casts of CD, plus we can reforge a good amount of the stat on gear to crit or mastery instead of haste, which is a nice DPS boost.

#51 Shadowzuka

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 10:38 PM

Anyway, does hardcasting Aimed remove the MMM stacks? If so, then you can bet your grand mother's jewelery that it will get changed so it isn't worth it.



MMM stacks stay given how it takes 5 to make it instant and free, compared to a 20% reduction per stack like shammy's maelstrom weapon talent in enhance. They just build up to 5 then you get the Fire Proc which makes it instant, so the stacks being cleared by MMM would be a clear nerf based on how they don't actually do anything by themselves.

#52 Kaiten

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 10:56 PM

The post was removed, but I think it was a legitimate theorycrafting question. The question was since some of the T11 set gear does not have optimal stats, should we forgo the 4-set bonus for better gear.


We'd end up with haste vs mastery clash. Hit's very easy to come by, crit is universally the most useful of secondary stats, so 4/5 pieces are quite decent. We have the godawful chest, which can thankfully be replaced by the Omnomnom's one.

The suboptimal part is then just about 2 pieces - gloves and legs, both have crit/haste layout(if we take voltage chest, then it is 3rd). After reforging we'd end up with ~200(330) haste rating + 4/5 bonus vs around 300 mastery tops. Doesn't seem to be a difficult choice tbh.

[If we lack hit then it would be different, but with current itemization.. unlikely tbh].
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#53 wilegenuis

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Posted 26 January 2011 - 09:25 AM

Bliz seems to balance the various hunter’s spec on all areas. 4.0.6. point was to make all specs more balanced, but instead they will drop the SV overall DPS 7% lower than it is today and will put MM in the same DPS level as SV are today (without the AOE ability). A Bit strange to put MM in this DPS level as it clear the SV today is OP.
I assume that this will be resolved when more and more ppl will get the set gear bonuses, as MM might have the biggest DPS of the 3 specs they (we!!!) will gain the least from the set piece bonus. Based on the FD with my gear level the extra DPS I get from the 2 piece bonus is poor as 40 DPS, and the 4 piece bonus gain is sad as 100 DPS. It is so low so I assume that a lot of MM hunters will prefer just to skip the piece bonus and invest their VP in better gear

#54 pichuca

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Posted 26 January 2011 - 11:55 AM

The 4 piece bonus can be ridiculously overpowered at certain levels of haste. Playing around with it in FD, it can be anything between 300 and 1200 DPS worth. On live, it will always result on a higher DPS gain, despite your current haste level. In adition to the extra MMM proccs, focus gains, AS gains, there will be more room for movement, as well as higher burst potential.

On the other hand, Yes, MM actually is looking a bit overpowered, at least on FD, surpassing live SV by a fair margin.

#55 babuka

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Posted 26 January 2011 - 12:16 PM

On the other hand, Yes, MM actually is looking a bit overpowered, at least on FD, surpassing live SV by a fair margin.


The trade-off is not being able to pull numbers like SV does in AoE situations making MM the single-target spec and SV still the AoE heavy spec (e.g. for Halfus, Maloriak...).

#56 Guest_alienangel_*

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Posted 26 January 2011 - 04:15 PM

Bliz seems to balance the various hunter’s spec on all areas. 4.0.6. point was to make all specs more balanced, but instead they will drop the SV overall DPS 7% lower than it is today and will put MM in the same DPS level as SV are today (without the AOE ability). A Bit strange to put MM in this DPS level as it clear the SV today is OP.
I assume that this will be resolved when more and more ppl will get the set gear bonuses, as MM might have the biggest DPS of the 3 specs they (we!!!) will gain the least from the set piece bonus. Based on the FD with my gear level the extra DPS I get from the 2 piece bonus is poor as 40 DPS, and the 4 piece bonus gain is sad as 100 DPS. It is so low so I assume that a lot of MM hunters will prefer just to skip the piece bonus and invest their VP in better gear


The "without the AOE ability" is IMO fairly key though - survival's current AoE seems much more OP than its single target, and AoE is fairly important in quite a few encounters currently. The PTR seems to be going back and forth over whether to nerf the AoE or not (the serpent spread limitation to 4 targets would be a huge nerf if it means improved SrS damage only applied to 4 targets, but they appear to have reverted that), so if they leave SV aoe largely unaffected but nerf its single target to be below MM by a few %, and as you say other classes catch up a bit due to gear differences, it sounds like a reasonable state of affairs - go MM for single target, go SV when you have to AoE.

Also while they say they don't balance in this way, having MM do a bit more DPS seems to make sense given that it's somewhat more complex to play than SV (especially if casted aimeshot becomes part of the rotation).

#57 Whitefyst

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Posted 26 January 2011 - 08:47 PM

Concerning the MM vs SV AoE discussion, I did a quick analysis using my character and FD with the PTR changes so that I could quantify the difference somewhat.

The SV spec used was the standard with only 1 point in Serpent Spread. Abilities used were limited to Multishot, Explosive Trap, Cobra Shot (to regen focus), and autoshot.

The MM spec was my standard with 2 in Bomb and 1 in RK. Abilities used were limited to Multishot, Explosive Trap, Steady Shot, autoshot, and proc Aimed Shot.

I limited the duration to 30s. Since FD only assumes a single target, I simulated multiple targets by multiplying the DPS from Multishot (and derived effects like WQ and Serpent Spread) by the number of targets and leaving the single target DPS (autoshot, Cobra/Steady Shot, Aimed Shot) constant. The result is the following table:

[TABLE]# Targets|SV|MM|Diff
1|21276|19585|1691
2|22917|20158|2759
3|28581|24937|3644
4|34244|29716|4528
5|39908|34495|5413
6|45571|39273|6298
7|51234|44052|7182
8|56898|48831|8067
9|62561|53610|8951
10|68225|58389|9836[/TABLE]

As can be seen, SV is clearly the favorite with the benefit increasing with the number of targets.

The main advantage for SV are:
- Higher AP and crit for same gear on stats - so similar shots hit for more. Even SVs autoshots do more DPS than MMs with their 15% spec damage bonus.
- Explosive Trap hits for more with 30% buff from Trap Mastery and additional buff from SV mastery
- Explosive Trap has a 6s shorter CD so the last 6s of the 30s has ET for SV but not MM
- Over all ET does 3.5x the DPS for SV as for MM
- The focus regen shot does more damage. In fact, CoS did 9.2% more damage than SS even with factoring in the AI procs, PS bleeds, and the WQ portion from the SSs.
- The Serpent Sting damage from Serpent Spread and ISrS is about 26.4% more damage than the WQ effect from the MS component.

The advantages for MM are:
- Although MS hits for 16% less, Bomb allowed 38% more multishots for 15.5% more MS DPS
- This simulation does not account for targets in the AoE dieing before others and providing 50 focus that can be turned around into 2 MSs instead of 2 SSs, greatly increasing MM DPS near the end of the AoE phase once targets start dieing.

I noticed after the fact that I had Bloodlust occurring at the start of the fight.

Below is another version of the table for a 18s AoE duration where both MM and Sv only have 1 ET and without Bloodlust:

[TABLE]# Targets|SV|MM|Diff
1|22395|20313|2083
2|23217|20396|2822
3|29086|25728|3358
4|34955|31060|3895
5|40823|36392|4431
6|46692|41724|4968
7|52560|47056|5504
8|58429|52388|6041
9|64297|57720|6577
10|70166|63052|7114[/TABLE]

#58 wilegenuis

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Posted 27 January 2011 - 05:27 PM

I wonder if the manipulation you did with FD for MM AOE fights got any correlation with real life fights, you mentioned you only used (for MM) a list containing Multishot, Explosive Trap, Steady Shot, autoshot, and proc Aimed Shot. However it assume that you drop the Explosive Trap in the middle of the mob while in real life it is not realistic to do so due to the minimum range limitation. What you will probably do in real fight is use your trap launcher, to do so you will probably use the trap launcher macro.
At least when I use my version on the trap launcher macro, I need to click it once, wait a sec and click it again, than aim to the mob spot and click the mouse, for sure it takes few seconds so I’m not sure what is the way to calculate it to get to the DPS math and what is your exact shot rotation.

#59 Guest_alienangel_*

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Posted 27 January 2011 - 07:46 PM

I wonder if the manipulation you did with FD for MM AOE fights got any correlation with real life fights, you mentioned you only used (for MM) a list containing Multishot, Explosive Trap, Steady Shot, autoshot, and proc Aimed Shot. However it assume that you drop the Explosive Trap in the middle of the mob while in real life it is not realistic to do so due to the minimum range limitation. What you will probably do in real fight is use your trap launcher, to do so you will probably use the trap launcher macro.
At least when I use my version on the trap launcher macro, I need to click it once, wait a sec and click it again, than aim to the mob spot and click the mouse, for sure it takes few seconds so I’m not sure what is the way to calculate it to get to the DPS math and what is your exact shot rotation.


The same applies to SV AoE too though - you're generally traplaunching your ETs there as well. As an estimate and a comparison between specs this should be fine. If you wanted to model it, it would be something like 1 steadyshot/CoS lost per ET cooldown.

One thing I'd be concerned about would be that since FD is assuming targets don't die, it's assuming we get serpent sting damage for the full duration in the SV case, which isn't really happening - a lot of the time when AoEing as survival, the #1 damage type is Improved SrS, which is the instant damage on application, followed by ET - actual serpent sting ticks and multishot damage are lower, because a lot of the mobs don't live long enough to get ticked on much, compared to how much damage they take from Imp SrS on multiple multishots (disclaimer: this may just be due to my personal habit of dumping back to back multishots, but since everyone else in the raid is usually AoEing too, I don't think things stay alive long enough for spacing out the multishots to be useful in any way). So the SV breakdown may be a slight overestimate (and as mentioned earlier, for a similar reason the MM estimate may be an underestimate due to not capturing the RK focus regen on killing blows).

#60 Whitefyst

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Posted 27 January 2011 - 08:19 PM

My modeling was that ET would be set via Trap Launcher and that the original Trap Launcher and ET buttons would be clicked prior to combat with with just having to place the trap when combat starts. This roughly coincides with the FD simulation.

Where this breaks down is having to launch additional ETs during combat. That is part of the reason that I did the 18s duration simulation at the end so that it would be more of a 1 for 1 comparison.

Good additional point on the fact that targets not dieing in the simulation causing an overestimation for SV. Obviously, our focus targets for CoS/SS and autoshots will generally die faster as well as anyone else's focuses if they need them. The damage of the MS/ISrS and soon after ET ticks will often kill targets before any SrS ticks from the last MS will occur. Furthermore, targets that get crits on them more often, have less health or armor, and/or more debuffs will also generally die faster.

On the other hand, targets not dieing adversely overestimates the MM DPS in the simulation too in a similar way since the sim assumes full PS ticks during the duration. However, this has a little less of an impact since the PS DPS is about half the SrS DPS and since PS ticks every second instead of every 3rd. However, when targets die and we get refunded focus (if we got the killing blow), that means we do more MSs and less of the shots from which PS procs, lessening that effect some. So overall I still think that targets not dieing in the sim still underestimates MM AoE DPS, especially in 10-mans where I see that 50 focus message frequently during AoE.




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