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4.03 Raid Mechanics and testing


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#21 fr0d0b0ls0n

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Posted 13 January 2011 - 07:44 AM

I think is totally random. A shame as the fight increases heavily in difficulty if all feuds are at 1 min/30secs/30secs/30secs (instead of the easy 1:30min/1min/1min). I have seen fights with only 3 feuds, and fights with 6 feuds...
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#22 MatsT

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Posted 13 January 2011 - 12:39 PM

Omnotron - interrupts depend on raid composition. Two shaman can alternate Wind Shears for every AA. 2 melee and one shaman can rotate (melee1, shaman, melee2, shaman, repeat). 3 melee could rotate. 25man more likely to have composition allowing 100% interrupts. 10man do the best you can and make sure that any sneak through do not occur while he's in a Power Generator (40k is bad enough, 80k is awful).


On heroic it's not really an option to let any through. Even without Power Generator they will still hit for above 100k which will lead to a death in combination with any other damage. What we do is have a shaman in each group keep grounding totem down to absorb bolts in case there was no interrupt available or the tank missed his interrupt.

#23 sp00n

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Posted 13 January 2011 - 02:48 PM

For Omnitron, the tuning on Arcane Anhilator seems a little funky. It's cast every 4 seconds


Are you sure that's not just due to a lower than 5 second spell school lockout from certain interrupting spells (Pummel has 4s, Wind Shear only 2s, etc)? Granted, we've only spent one night on Omnitron heroic yet, but in general it didn't seem like an overwhelming problem to interrupt AA with just two rogues alternating (who have a 5s lockout with a 10s cooldown).
Problems arise when somebody else with a lower lockout interrupts the cast and/or other boss abilites come into play (sucked into poison cloud, fixate, lightning conductor), although there are ways to play around this - which simply is a part of the encounter.

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#24 sollaires

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Posted 14 January 2011 - 06:37 PM

Haven't seen this anywhere else, but cardboard assassin is pretty useful for soaking hits on Chimaeron. It can even parry his melees. Pretty useful if you're out of cooldowns.

You can see the taunt and the parry from our kill last night:

YouTube - Chimaeron Heroic 25 - Roll Initiative - Feral Bear POV

#25 Iluminati

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Posted 15 January 2011 - 06:58 PM

For Omnitron, the tuning on Arcane Anhilator seems a little funky. It's cast every 4 seconds, a fast cast, and does a lot of damage (but not a 1-shot). So, we should be interupting every cast, but it's not 100% necessary to get every one, and we were having problems coming up with a reliable rotation. Has anyone found a reliable way to lock this down, or is it just something that you're supposed to heal through the 25% of hits that get off?


Arcane Annihilator is Arcanotron's main attacking ability. Meaning, he will not melee unless he cannot cast Arcane Annihilator due to school lockout.

A few things could be causing you to miss interrupts:
1. Skill
2. "Lag" (aka skill)
3. Your interrupter combo is bad / you aren't using the right interrupting pair.

To address #3 - it is best to use two interrupters that have the same lockout duration.

Shield bash - 6 second lockout / 12 second cooldown
Pummel, Mind Freeze - 4 second lockout / 10 second cooldown
Kick - 5 second lockout / 10 second cooldown
Wind Shear - 2 second lockout / 6 second cooldown (5 second talented)

It is best to have two like abilities interrupting. This way you can consistently time the casts. Unfortunately, if you use anything other than Shield bash x2 or Kick x2, you will have a "gap" where it is possible that Arcanotron will cast Arcane Annihilator but NEITHER interrupter will be off cooldown. You can get around this by having your tank help interrupt, but that can get confusing.

It is important that no one else is interrupting except for the designated interrupters. They will introduce a different lockout duration and throw off your interrupters. It also makes it harder to tell if your assigner interrupters are good/bad/paying attention.

Obviously, your interrupters need to know that they cannot do anything except interrupt. Your shamans/priests/mages need to be purge/dispel/spellstealing.

If you had trouble interrupting General Vezax in Ulduar...you will have trouble with this ability.

#26 Gulvak

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Posted 16 January 2011 - 10:11 PM

A thread to test and document boss mechanics, that are either not well described elsewhere or not completely understood, from the first four raids in Cataclysm.

Please focus on tested mechanics as opposed to theories of how they may work, and note any areas that aren't fully understood. From my experience so far it seems that some boss mechanics are more complicated than have been described, and some strats may be working for un-intended (or at least, poorly understood/described) reasons. For example, Magmaw’s Magma Spit ability (10-man):

  • Hits for approximately 36k damage
  • Cast at 3 targets each time
  • Prioritizes targets out of melee range, but will target melee if there’s no one at range. (we found that either having 1 player at range, or lots of players at range works best, having only 2 or 3 was difficult on our healers).
  • Cast anywhere from every 5 seconds to every 20 seconds (ignoring impale phases). This appears to be a random time between casts, and can be a problem before the first impale if you get some bad luck as this can easily be the #1 source of damage for the raid if it's cast as often as possible. Subsequent impales come much more often, and so the DTPS from all abilities, including this, drops significantly in the 2nd half of the encounter.

A Warrior tank can spell reflect this ability and it will count as a deflect. I imagine a hunter as well could use deterrence to prevent some damage from this. You do have to completely guess, but if you have the excess rage or are running very low on health as a hunter this is definitely something to think about.

I'm sorry if this is a new aspect of Spell Reflection and I'm saying something everyone already knows.

#27 TrlstanC

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Posted 16 January 2011 - 11:42 PM

After the first two encounters in BWD there are a lot of options for where to go next, especially depending on your groups combination of gear and co-ordination skills. From what I've seen I would rate the next 3 BWD encounters in this order: Maloriak, Atramedes, Chimaerion, with Halfus falling somewhere in that range depending on drakes are up, and the Counclave of Wind being pretty much a co-ordination test that seems to be much more tightly tuned in 10man than 25.

For Maloriak, pretty much the only mechanic that needs to be talked about is what amount of Aberrations to kill, and when. We tried the fairly obvious releasing and killing 9 for 2 green phases, which was doable, but right at the limit of how much damage the off tank could deal with, so it never felt like it was going smoothly (and often it wouldn't). Has anyone tried other strats that worked more consistently? I've heard interrupt everything and deal with 18 at the end, and use 2 off tanks in the first phase to split 12.

For Halfus, I'd say that any combo that doesn't include the green whelp is going to be harder than one that doesn't, and any that includes slate will be harder than the rest. We have Storm, Time, Slate up this week, and decided on a release and kill Storm+Slate, than release Storm and burn Halfus strat. We had the DPS to down him before the enrage, but had a lot of trouble getting past the 2 minutes consistently due to the combo of high aoe, tank debuff and having 2 drakes up.

#28 sp00n

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Posted 17 January 2011 - 01:15 AM

Are you talking about 10man or 25man?

For Maloriak on 10man, the standard tactics we use on 25man to just tank 9 adds didn't quite work for us (it was an alt/friend run, so only pre-raid gear).
Instead, we had one plate wearer (my DK alt) taunt 2 adds of the first wave one by one, which was then nuked down by the ranged. The add tank thus only had to deal with 6 adds to take into the green phase, which was manageable for our setup.
Also note that Maloriak has a 6min enrage timer on 10man, which he doesn't have in 25 (if he has one, it's considerable longer, I haven't seen it yet).

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#29 krilz

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Posted 17 January 2011 - 11:28 AM

Two things we've noticed during raids. I hardly think these mechanics are intended and will probably be fixed in the future but here goes:

Valiona & Theralion

Blackout can be ignored if you use Grounding Totems. Yes, it absorbs the effect and it makes Valiona even easier then she already is. Remember though that in order for this to work, you need to have a totem for every group.

Cho'gall

100 Corruption results in transforming into a Faceless One: increasing damage, everything is instant cast but you cannot be healed. However, if you play Demonology and use Metamorphosis to turn into a demon (i.e. you are in demon form) when you reach 100, you won't be transformed. Instead, after Metamorphosis has run out, you'll return to normal form, still having 100 corruption, but you still will not be transformed, meaning you can still be healed (casts are not instants also, I didn't notice any difference in increased damage so I assume that's not applied as well).

EDIT: Avoiding Blackout with Grounding Totem has now been fixed.

#30 Doktre

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 07:06 PM

Nefarian 10s:

We are having some real difficulty controlling adds in P1 due to Ony's tail swipe stunning the mage-kiter. What I'm wondering is whether anyone has had any success using the Line-of-Sight mechanics (source) on Ony's Lightning Discharge? Would Ony need to be positioned with her Lightning Orb humping the pillar or her head, or is it just not possible to position her so that the raid is out of LOS?

#31 Lightflower

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 11:03 PM

Nefarian 10s:

We are having some real difficulty controlling adds in P1 due to Ony's tail swipe stunning the mage-kiter. What I'm wondering is whether anyone has had any success using the Line-of-Sight mechanics (source) on Ony's Lightning Discharge? Would Ony need to be positioned with her Lightning Orb humping the pillar or her head, or is it just not possible to position her so that the raid is out of LOS?


We had extremely limited success with LOS mechanics for Onyxia's discharge ability. Some of our players reported that standing very close to a pillar and having that pillar block LOS to the centre of her body enabled them to avoid discharge while others standing in similar spots could not avoid. On the whole, we ditched the strategy as unreliable and went back to a more standard "turn the dragon" for our kill.

My personal opinion is that the LOS effects are probably more to do with the notorious pathing issues which exist in that room and are similar to the issue where sometimes Priest POH will not hit players in Chimaeron's room who are standing on the slightly lower section of the floor or on the other side of a crack.

On the subject of LOS issues for the Nefarian encounter, has anyone found positions where the dragons are not affected by them? We have had numerous issues with Nef landing during P1, tank rapidly getting a massive (130k) threat lead then the dragon simply turning to someone else.

#32 Kuku

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 12:17 AM

Nefarian 10s:

We are having some real difficulty controlling adds in P1 due to Ony's tail swipe stunning the mage-kiter. What I'm wondering is whether anyone has had any success using the Line-of-Sight mechanics (source) on Ony's Lightning Discharge? Would Ony need to be positioned with her Lightning Orb humping the pillar or her head, or is it just not possible to position her so that the raid is out of LOS?


LOSign Onyxia never showed any signs of success when we tried it.

You don't need to kite the adds, by the way. They are fully susceptible to most CC's (polymorphs being the only exception I am aware of. Yes, you can warlock fear them, even though they are undead). We usually CC 3 of them and have our ret tank/kite them until the first 3 die.

The adds on Maloriak can be warlock feared as well, despite being undead.

#33 Sonrisa

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 03:31 AM

On the subject of LOS issues for the Nefarian encounter, has anyone found positions where the dragons are not affected by them? We have had numerous issues with Nef landing during P1, tank rapidly getting a massive (130k) threat lead then the dragon simply turning to someone else.


We found that Nefarian's threat isn't active until he lands. Also Onyxia's threat will reset if people don't jump down at the same time. This is due to the platform being a moving object: the lava doesn't raise, the platform sinks. It's pretty much the same thing that happened during the Gunship battle when people jumped to the oposing sheep and Saurfang/Muradin would keep resetting his threat. Also, the platform being a moving object is the same reason why mages can't use ring of frost in it.

#34 Sh4d0wfury

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 04:23 AM

There is (or at least there was) a bug on Onyxia's threat when a DK used path of frost to reduce his falling damage. Onyxia would turn to a random enemy (which could include pets) and hit them a few times if the tank went to far away from her. The solution is simple, just don't use path of frost.

#35 Sonrisa

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 04:53 AM

There is (or at least there was) a bug on Onyxia's threat when a DK used path of frost to reduce his falling damage. Onyxia would turn to a random enemy (which could include pets) and hit them a few times if the tank went to far away from her. The solution is simple, just don't use path of frost.


I had no idea that bug existed (which I'll be sure to test out tonight). What I wrote was the only logical explanation we had for the threat resets after going through the logs and making sure that no one was in fact using Blessing of Sacrifice on the tank. The Path of Frost bug however does indeed seems likely since the aggro reset weren't happening on our early attempts and I know I kept forgetting to use it, and we didn't have any threat issues. As it started happening I assumed people were getting paranoid with aggro and jumping down later to ensure they wouldn't turn Onyxia and that's how I got to the moving platform theory.

One thing I don't get though, is why using Path of Frost would have any impact what so ever on threat.

#36 sp00n

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 12:24 PM

We had Nefarian attacking random targets on almost all of our attempts so far.
Howerver, last week I think we didn't have these issues, and we also had no DK in our line up that time.

We'll be there again tonight, maybe we can validate this further.

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#37 Exemplar

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 01:19 PM

The adds on Maloriak can be warlock feared as well, despite being undead.


I believe the previous week the adds on Maloriak were undead. This last week we found the adds were not undead, which adds tools to many classes but removed them from our Paladin tank (Holy Wrath would no longer stun them).
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#38 sp00n

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 09:43 PM

There is (or at least there was) a bug on Onyxia's threat when a DK used path of frost to reduce his falling damage. Onyxia would turn to a random enemy (which could include pets) and hit them a few times if the tank went to far away from her. The solution is simple, just don't use path of frost.


Still seems to be the case. Just had two engages, the first one without Path of Frost and no random targetting, the second with, and she instantly showed the usual behaviour of randomly targetting someone in the raid, not depending on aggro.


// Edit
Only one attempt out of 6 showed the erratic behaviour. Exactly the one where Path of Frost was active.

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#39 Lightflower

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 10:32 PM

We have done a couple of attempts at the achievement Double Dragon and noticed some odd occurrences with the Twiilight Corrupters. Our DPS team goes down during the first Dazzling Destruction and has noticed that the Corrupters spawn in an apparently random location, that they run for a portal which spawns in an apparently random location and that the first corrupter targeted despawns (before running through a portal) about 4 seconds after it is first attacked.

We were wondering if anyone has observed different effects on this fight or is the above entirely normal? If it is normal, any hints on how to get the achievement would be greatly appreciated.

#40 kaib

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 11:23 AM

We had another issue with Valiona/Theralion heroic, was wondering if anyone else had issues with that. In the second Valiona phase the devouring flames went mental on us here and there. It didn't happen all that often but frequently enough and wiped two or three attempts on 3x% with 25 people alive, which was rather frustrating.
I cannot pin it down but twice someone managed to call it ahead of it bugging out, it seemed her casting animation was different, the black spikes around her missing or something like that.
We definitley had people inside the twilight realm at that point, possible that she's 'targeting' (I know she's not actually targeting somene, but might be some script to determine where she turns towards) someone inside the realm and that causes it?

@valiona achievement:

It looked to me like they spawned on one end of the room and ran to a portal on the other side. They are fast and immediatly despawn once they reach it. You can stun and freeze them however. Shadow fury, hammer of justice etc and frost mages can deep freeze/shatter them (whateve that stuff is called). They have about 120k hp, which isn't a lot. Let some people with good burst zone in, set up someone as assist who spams a targeting macro and then stun/root and kill them.




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