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Affliction in Cataclysm (4.3 Release)


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#21 revulva

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Posted 07 January 2011 - 03:02 PM

Jmickey,

I see what happened. 581 is the haste rating required on just gear. What you really need is 30% haste.

That doesn't change the conclusion in my post at all, though. It would read instead:

If you have 580 haste on gear, your haste is:
ISF + Dark Intent + 5% buff + gear (580/128.05701) = 30.006% haste

If you have 581 haste, your haste is:
ISF + Dark Intent + 5% buff + gear (581/128.05701) = 30.015% haste

The interval of UA is the base, 3 seconds, divided by haste:
580 Haste Rating: 3/1.3006 = 2.30759 seconds
581 Haste Rating: 3/1.3015 = 2.30742 seconds

In a 300 second fight you will get:
580 Haste Rating: 300/2.30759 = 130.006 UA ticks, or, 130
581 Haste Rating: 300/2.30742 = 130.015 UA ticks, or, 130

This is now the correct math, but the point I was making is exactly the same. Yes, you get an extra tick on UA at 581 haste rating, but the damage you gain from UA doesn't jump.

The only real "jump" is that the duration of UA at:
580 haste = 13.85 seconds = cast UA 22 times
581 haste = 16.15 seconds = cast UA 19 times

Cast time is 1.15 seconds, so, you gain a total of 3.45 seconds over the course of a 300 second fight. You can't even cast two shadow bolts in that time.

I think this is a very interesting mechanic, but, in the end, saying these "thresholds" are somehow important to our DPS as affliction warlocks or shadow priests is very misleading. We're already going to be tweaking our gear to have as much haste as possible. Would you really reforge away 50 crit or hit to squeeze in an extra shadow bolt? Would you change a 20int/20haste gem to 40 haste? Would that even be a DPS gain? The numbers we are talking about here fall within the margin of error in SimC, so there is no way for me to even test it.
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#22 shumoo

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Posted 07 January 2011 - 03:08 PM

Shumoo, it seems you still didn't really get where the benefit from getting over the DoT treshold comes from. If you get an extra dot tick, you refresh your dot one tick later and the next time, again one tick laters, resulting in one cast less after a while, here is an example for the 10% treshold:

UA @ 9.999...% haste = 5 ticks 2.7272 sec/tick

82 second fight: 30 ticks= 6 UA casts

UA @ 10% haste= 6 ticks 2.727272 sec/tick

82 second fight= 30 ticks= 5 UA casts

getting over the cap gained you 1.36sec (=1.5/1.10) extra cast time you can spend on (part of) a shadowbolt or something else each ~82 seconds. This is a pure DPS gain only due to getting over the haste treshold. The only thing that's up for discussion is, if this dps gain is large enough to warrant sacrifying other stats to get to the haste treshold.


You only gain that time effectively once, and inbetween thresholds you slowly lose it again until you get another tick to add duration back on to the DoT. Don't forget that haste makes the time between ticks smaller, reducing total duration. If it didn't DoTs dps would just become longer durations for more fillers without getting a DPS increase themselves. That isn't the case at all as revulva points out. If you're trying to say that each time you meet a threshold you gain more time to do other things, show me where UA's duration gets longer than 17 seconds.

#23 shumoo

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Posted 07 January 2011 - 03:37 PM

Ok Shumoo, you've posted alot of wrong information in this thread already, please don't confuse people more with your misinformation. EVERY haste treshold you get the dps gain from an extra global cooldown every so many seconds.

Assume a theoretical 420 second fight with 50% haste, that means 840 ticks and UA has 8 ticks per cast.
For every tick we have gained upto that point, we received extra global cooldowns:

5 tick UA = 168 casts
6 tick UA = 140 casts - gained 28 GCDs
7 tick UA = 120 casts - gained another 20 GCDs
8 tick UA = 105 casts - gained another 15 GCDs

every extra tick you gain, you have to cast less. The dps gain from the previous extra tick does not go away and you get an extra dps gain each time you receive a new tick. However YES this dps gain becomes smaller and smaller for higher haste tresholds.

I apologize for frustating you...

show me the durations of UA and how you calculate them above.

#24 revulva

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Posted 07 January 2011 - 03:40 PM

Innulock, you are absolutely and completely wrong. You do not understand how haste works with DoTs.

Here is a table that I posted in another forum for a 300 second fight and Unstable Affliction.
At 00% haste: 1.50 sec cast, 15.000 sec duration, use UA 20 times to get 100 ticks.
At 10% haste: 1.36 sec cast, 16.364 sec duration, use UA 19 times to get 114 ticks.
At 30% haste: 1.15 sec cast, 16.154 sec duration, use UA 19 times to get 133 ticks.
At 50% haste: 1.00 sec cast, 16.000 sec duration, use UA 19 times to get 152 ticks.
At 70% haste: 0.88 sec cast, 15.882 sec duration, use UA 19 times to get 171 ticks.
At 90% haste: 0.79 sec cast, 15.789 sec duration, use UA 19 times to get 190 ticks

The duration of a DoT can never vary from the base more than:
base interval +/- DoT interval/2

Your table is wrong. Not sure why you are considering an 840 second fight, but, the actual table would read:
5 tick UA = 56 casts
6 tick UA = 52 casts
7 tick UA = 52 casts
8 tick UA = 53 casts
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#25 shumoo

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Posted 07 January 2011 - 03:55 PM

Yes, my bad the fight duration is ofc 840 ticks x2 sec = 1680 seconds and not 840 /2 =420 seconds.

i took 840 ticks cause it's the smalles common multiple of 5,6 7 and 8


I didn't get what revulva had found at first, but since we can see (and his math is solid) that the number of ticks where 1 point of haste makes the difference is the same before and after, we can safely conclude it's just as he says - you gain a casting window for ~1 filler. This is the case for each DoT we have so we're really close to another threshold at just about any amount of haste and getting that filler somewhere.

My question earlier was "is there a DPS gain that depends on which DoT is actually providing the filler space?" If not, then revulva is correct in that gearing for thresholds for Aff isn't all that beneficial.

#26 Innulock

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Posted 07 January 2011 - 03:59 PM

I didn't get what revulva had found at first, but since we can see (and his math is solid) that the number of ticks where 1 point of haste makes the difference is the same before and after, we can safely conclude it's just as he says - you gain a casting window for ~1 filler. This is the case for each DoT we have so we're really close to another threshold at just about any amount of haste and getting that filler somewhere.

My question earlier was "is there a DPS gain that depends on which DoT is actually providing the filler space?" If not, then revulva is correct in that gearing for thresholds for Aff isn't all that beneficial.


The only DOTs gaining from the effect are UA and BoA (and immolate, BoD and corruption for non affliction specs) and the effect of the BoA tresholds are even smaller than the one of UA

#27 Jmickey

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Posted 07 January 2011 - 04:07 PM

Revulva,

Thanks for the clarification. what you have said there now makes alot more sense. Admittedly I should have already understood this, but I have had much on my mind and it simply didn't click.

I will reword what I have said.

I think this is a very interesting mechanic, but, in the end, saying these "thresholds" are somehow important to our DPS as affliction warlocks or shadow priests is very misleading. We're already going to be tweaking our gear to have as much haste as possible. Would you really reforge away 50 crit or hit to squeeze in an extra shadow bolt? Would you change a 20int/20haste gem to 40 haste? Would that even be a DPS gain? The numbers we are talking about here fall within the margin of error in SimC, so there is no way for me to even test it.


Correct me if I am wrong (which is highly possible, flu ridden minds do not seem to work very well sometimes), This should simply be a matter of taking the DPET time of 2 Shadow Bolts (I'm rounding up) and comparing that to the DPS loss of the stat you are sacrificing over a 300 second fight. Example:

(I will be using the stat weights of the Pre-Raid Affliction SimulationCraft results.)

Sacrificing 20 hit for 20 haste to reach 581 haste:

((20 * 1.5690) * 300) - ((20 * 1.2767) * 300) = 9414 DMG - 7660 DMG = 1754 DMG lost over 300 seconds.

Now if you add the damage of 2 Shadow Bolts, each with a DPET of 8461. You gain a total of 15,168 DMG over the course of a 300 second fight.

Extremely minimal as you can see. about a 50 DPS increase if I am not mistaken.

#28 Aristeides

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Posted 07 January 2011 - 06:32 PM

Thank you to Jmickey for creating and maintaining this thread. I would like to suggest a small addition to the spell priority list. As with Demonology and Destruction, Shadowflame has a higher DPCT than our base filler for both Affliction specs (BiS profile sims put it at a 470 DPS increase for both specs). If you are ever in melee range, even in a single target encounter, it is a DPS gain to use Shadowflame on cooldown (my own sims put it at around 250 dps in average ilvl 355 gear).

#29 Majin72

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Posted 07 January 2011 - 07:55 PM

Our opening set has pretty much always been slightly different than our priority list and I noticed that you didn't say much about it other than an instant Soul Fire to get the haste buff up, so I was wondering if you were meaning that in order to maximize our DPS we should immediately follow the priority list or if there's an optimal starting set that you would suggest as well?

I've been using: SB (for S&F debuff)>Instant SF>Haunt>BoA>Corr>UA, then dropping into the priority list from there.

I've also been working with a version that swaps the first SB and the instant SF, as well as a few others.

Another thing that I've been wondering about and haven't heard one way or the other on is usage of Fel Flame. I've been using it to refresh UA, but I just recently started to experiment with refreshing it as soon as it drops by recasting just like in WotLK.

Hope this helps as another track to think on and many thanks for all the useful information!

#30 shumoo

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Posted 07 January 2011 - 08:57 PM

Another thing that I've been wondering about and haven't heard one way or the other on is usage of Fel Flame. I've been using it to refresh UA, but I just recently started to experiment with refreshing it as soon as it drops by recasting just like in WotLK.


There's some discussion on it here...
http://elitistjerks....m_demonic_mage/

It's also absent from the Sim priority list for both Aff and Affdrain
http://elitistjerks....aclysm_edition/

With the 4pc 100% crit bonus, it is a small dps gain as last stated in the destro thread. Nothing in the Aff tree really makes it worth casting more than in destro so I would expect it to also be a small gain with the 4 piece for Aff. Use when moving and keep your DoTs up, otherwise recast UA.

Edit:

The above is no longer correct for patch 4.0.6 and later

MMO-Champion - Patch 4.0.6 Notes Update - January 11

The PvE warlock 4-piece set bonus (Fel Spark) now increases the damage done by the next 2 Fel Flame spells by 300%, rather than increasing the critical effect chance of one by 100%.



#31 Lolth

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Posted 08 January 2011 - 12:05 AM

I tested something I wasn't sure about and wanted to know if anybody here had a definite answer regarding that question:

Improved Soulfire has to be kept up all the time because of the haste buff, that's clear. But what if i hard cast Soulfire and begin an Unstable Affliction cast after i finished the Soulfire. The cast is still unhasted, because the SF didn't already hit the target but by the time i finish UA i have the haste buff up. Does UA (regarding the tick speed) take the haste value when i begin casting oder when the cast is finished? It's kind of hard to test because my gear is pretty bad (don't have the time for raiding at the moment) and i only get a new tick with both Hurricane & Imp SF up.

P.S. I know i can cast SF while still under the effekt of the buff, fire it with 0.x sec left on the buff and begin UA. That way i have Imp SF up when i begin the cast (still there from last SF) and when it's finished (new Imp SF because the new SF already hit the target) but the timing is rather annoying to hit and i don't think it's a dps increase to wait the time to actually hit that timing window.

Also please excuse my english, it's not my native language.

#32 Innulock

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Posted 08 January 2011 - 12:40 AM

Does UA (regarding the tick speed) take the haste value when i begin casting oder when the cast is finished?




DoT Tick haste is calculated upon cast finish, just like crit, mastery and spellpower.

#33 Maelcrum

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Posted 08 January 2011 - 08:09 AM

In regards to the Dark Intent discussion, I found a great table here : Dark Intent - The Guide (2010/12/24)) All credits go to Gherkin and listed authors.

Discussing execute phase, I have yet to be able to model this via Simcraft, however a previous post of mine, that can be found here:http://elitistjerks....ysm_edition/p8/ (Post 177, author: Raqi) illustrates how to maximize the final moments of our execute phase, which I believe could be a substantial DPS boost if allowed (meaning spare shard and soulburn available).

#34 Malthias

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Posted 08 January 2011 - 03:32 PM

I'm curious if there are any other locks out there that have decided to play around with the felhunter instead of succy. I'm not sure if this is being accounted for in all of the damage parses, but right now the Demon Soul buff doesn't actually work with BoA. That's always done consistently more dmg for me than BoD when maintained properly, but Doom receives a 20% buff and Agony doesn't that makes me sad :)

Hope they fix it soon. Anyone else noticed it when testing?

#35 Burberri

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Posted 09 January 2011 - 09:00 PM

Glyph of Life tap is not very sexy in actual combat. I can't think of a fight in tier 11 where you don't have to move at some point. Perhaps Malroak. Also between raid buff, ISF/erradication, gear haste, you aren't saving yourself meaningful amounts of time during the coarse of a fight cause you will be very neard the GCD cap without a lot of effort.

In 5-mans it just doesn't matter tbh.

edit : Also glyph of soul link is also a solid raid glyph. I am raid buffed to 120k HP so its an additional 6k effective health.

and don't sneer at glyph of healthstone either. It has use in raids since a lot of t11 has us as dps avoiding/ mitigating damage.

#36 Wolfbeckett

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Posted 10 January 2011 - 03:23 PM

First of all, sorry for my english, it isn't my native language. It's my first post in these forums so I just hope to be useful.

I m mainly interested in two points: 1)fel flame use and 2)the priority between use the soulburn instant cast to get the Imp SF or to summon a succub. at the beginning of a fight (after use demon soul with the fel hunter). I don't know how to test the first one; with respect to the second one I have been testing it against a dummy for days, and I hardly noticed the difference between these two ways...it depends on "when the trinket's procs come out", so...can anyone give any reasonable argument in favor of one of these?

Thanks for the incredible post and excuse me again for my awful english,


Regarding point number 1, I believe at this point it's been pretty well supported that Fel Flame's damage is simply too low to be useful unless you are moving and have no other instant casts that need to go out. Since it only adds 6 seconds to UA, as opposed to simply hardcasting UA for it's full duration, it's not worth doing for that, and it's abysmal damage makes it not worth casting for that either. Other people might have a different opinion but from my experience it's useless except as movement filler.

Regarding point number two, I haven't tried it to have hard numbers, but I would have to say that if your testing shows them being more or less equal, then just go with the simplest way, which would be the Instant SF right from the start. My gut feeling is you probably CAN see a DPS increase by using the Felhunter at first for the buff then insta-cast succy, but the timing on doing that properly while still getting a benefit from it seems dicey. I'd like to hear if anyone else has an opinion on this though, because it's a good idea in theory.

#37 vejito

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Posted 10 January 2011 - 04:23 PM

I noticed that Soulburn: Seed of Corruption is listed as an "optional" talent, but the only way to pick it up is to take one point away from a "required" talent. To pick this up, would taking one point out of nightfall be the best way?

Also, I've seen a lot of the top damaging Warlocks use the BoA glyph over the corruption glyph, is there evidence that the corruption glyph is superior?

#38 Jmickey

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Posted 10 January 2011 - 04:57 PM

I noticed that Soulburn: Seed of Corruption is listed as an "optional" talent, but the only way to pick it up is to take one point away from a "required" talent. To pick this up, would taking one point out of nightfall be the best way?

Also, I've seen a lot of the top damaging Warlocks use the BoA glyph over the corruption glyph, is there evidence that the corruption glyph is superior?


Take 1 point out of Pandemic. 0.25 seconds off the GCD for curses and banes is minimal, and can easily be achieved through haste. Also, a 50% chance to refresh UA when Drain Soul ticks is more than enough.

Simcraft places Glyph of Corruption about 50dps ahead of Glyph of BoA.

#39 Zok72

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Posted 10 January 2011 - 05:29 PM

I am curious whether Bane of Agony's unique damage mechanic (that is to say, lower damage during the earlier ticks and higher damage during the later ticks) gives it a significant damage increase for each extra tick or not.

My reasoning is that if an extra tick is added to the end of the existing sequence of ticks then it would have to have a higher damage than the previous tick which would have been the most powerful tick in the sequence. Because a high damage tick is added, and the damage from the spell is low at the beginning, the final tick would increase the average damage of the ticks significantly more than an extra tick would for another spell where all of the ticks have the same damage.

Is this reasoning correct? If it is not correct, what makes it incorrect i.e. what are the mechanics that govern how the damage is increased when a tick is added to Bane of Agony? Finally, if I am correct, what are the implications for gear choices and do haste thresholds for BoA become important targets?

#40 revulva

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Posted 10 January 2011 - 08:50 PM

I am curious whether Bane of Agony's unique damage mechanic (that is to say, lower damage during the earlier ticks and higher damage during the later ticks) gives it a significant damage increase for each extra tick or not.

My reasoning is that if an extra tick is added to the end of the existing sequence of ticks then it would have to have a higher damage than the previous tick which would have been the most powerful tick in the sequence. Because a high damage tick is added, and the damage from the spell is low at the beginning, the final tick would increase the average damage of the ticks significantly more than an extra tick would for another spell where all of the ticks have the same damage.

Is this reasoning correct? If it is not correct, what makes it incorrect i.e. what are the mechanics that govern how the damage is increased when a tick is added to Bane of Agony? Finally, if I am correct, what are the implications for gear choices and do haste thresholds for BoA become important targets?


I think you are not the only one curious about this mechanic. I've seen the same question asked on a couple of forums. I did a test on my warlock for the 12.5% threshold. My lock is only level 80, though, and my gear sucks. So, I wasn't able to test any higher threshold. (I did not test the 4.167% threshold because I wanted to do the test with constant spell power.)

With 11.99% haste, my bane of agony ticked 13 times: (1.786s interval)
4 weak
4 average
5 strong

With 12.50% haste, my bane of agony ticked 13 times: (1.778s interval)
4 weak
3 average
6 strong

With 12.93% haste, my bane of agony ticked 14 times: (1.771s interval)
4 weak
5 average
4 strong
1 very strong

weak = 312
average = 380
strong = 448
very strong = 515

So the total damage at each value of haste was:
11.99% - 5008
12.50% - 5076
12.93% - 5455

I tried the same test with a much lower spell power, to see if the calculation somehow depended on the total damage of the spell, and, it does:

With 11.99% haste, my bane of agony ticked 13 times: (1.786s interval)
4 weak
4 average
5 strong

With 12.50% haste, my bane of agony ticked 13 times: (1.778s interval)
4 weak
4 average
5 strong

With 12.93% haste, my bane of agony ticked 14 times: (1.771s interval)
4 weak
5 average
4 strong
1 very strong

weak = 252
average = 319
strong = 387
very strong = 454

So the total damage at each value of haste was:
11.99% - 4219
12.50% - 4219
12.93% - 4605

Now, this is very interesting. A "very strong" tick exists after we get to this new value of haste. Over the course of a 300 second fight, would this make a difference?

With 12.5% haste we need to cast BoA 12.98 times (23.1s duration) - you'll clip the last strong tick
With 12.93% haste we need to cast BoA 12.10 times (24.8s duration) - you'll get 1 extra weak tick

Using both trials, we can calculate the number of ticks at each value (weak, average, strong, very strong) and find total BoA damage in the fight for each:
Trial 1 -
12.50% - 65540
12.93% - 65772

Trial 2 -
12.50% - 54460
12.93% - 55512

So, the amount of extra damage you get on BoA by adding that .43% haste varies depending on how your spell power adjusts the ticks. It's a strange mechanic.
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