Jump to content


Photo

[Balance] WrathCalcs


  • Please log in to reply
968 replies to this topic

#21 Tecton

Tecton

    Soda Popinski

  •  Patrons
  • 3,951 posts

Posted 18 January 2011 - 12:12 PM

Yeah, I think just re-entering them with absolute references should sort it from happening (I think it's got to do with saving between the different versions of Excel, found a few mentions about similar problems when I did a search about it).

Didn't take long, so no worries, and should stop the same one from happening again. The profile macro has also been updated for the new AOE addition & Dark Intent uptime. The only other thing I could see would be the new AOE rotation needs to check for the hit cap.

#22 Hamlet

Hamlet

    Mike Tyson

  • • Guide Author
  • 11,567 posts

Posted 18 January 2011 - 07:16 PM

I can't seem to get that file for some reason. Can you link it somewhere else for the moment?

#23 Guest_aceofsween_*

Guest_aceofsween_*
  • Guests

Posted 18 January 2011 - 10:13 PM

Probably from averaging in Troll Berserking. That's part of the general temporary-haste problem.

e: although, 1928 should get 13 ticks anyway, hmm. There might be some rounding going on in-game.


That's what I thought at first too, but I disabled Troll Berserking and the problem still exists. Is it possible there is a threshold for the maximum time in which it can exceed the non-hasted max duration?

#24 Hamlet

Hamlet

    Mike Tyson

  • • Guide Author
  • 11,567 posts

Posted 18 January 2011 - 10:19 PM

I'd been considering some kind of rounding, which seems likely to me, but that's another possibility. I've talked about this more recently on the Resto thread.

#25 Moonwhisper

Moonwhisper

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 46 posts

Posted 18 January 2011 - 11:44 PM

minor error reports WrathCalcs 110117 PTR.xls - OO mode:
- Off-hand enchant: superior intellect uses 40INT instead of 100INT
- Belt "enchantment" ebonsteel belt buckle has no options (no gems you can choose)
- Chaotic Metagem activated even at 5red/5blue gem

Suggestions:
- new enchantment option bracers: superior spellpower (30SP) -->still a nice option
- new enchantment option gloves: exceptional spellpower (28SP) --> still a nice option


some strange calculation findings:

- Int summary B3/B5 seems to be 421 lower as calculated by battlenet for my character. SP C3/C5 summary only 79 while hit, crit, mastery are correct. I am confused but checked the data twice. Does someone else has similar findings?

- haste summary F3/F5 in spreadsheet with my character is 342 haste ratings higher than expected (compared to battlenet haste (w/o hurricane achievement) and +450haste rating with hurricane achievement - seems odd!?

Could this differences be caused by different patch levels between PTR and Live server ?

#26 Tecton

Tecton

    Soda Popinski

  •  Patrons
  • 3,951 posts

Posted 19 January 2011 - 01:08 AM

Offhand enchant is being nerfed in the next patch to 40 intellect, that's a PTR version we're working on currently. Chaotic gem requirement is being reverted in the PTR too. For the belt socket, I've probably just missed changing the dropdown for the second OO list, I'll sort that out, thanks!

I can add the wrist/glove enchants if anyone really wants it, although why would you use them?

Regarding haste not adding up, remember all haste effects are currently averaged over their duration, the discrepancy is your Witching Hourglass trinket's proc. Intellect is purely what you get from gear on that page.

The forums are showing the last upload as a gif for some reason, I'll reupload tomorrow morning.

#27 Tecton

Tecton

    Soda Popinski

  •  Patrons
  • 3,951 posts

Posted 19 January 2011 - 09:34 AM

Trying the upload again:

Attached Files



#28 Moonwhisper

Moonwhisper

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 46 posts

Posted 19 January 2011 - 03:46 PM

Offhand enchant is being nerfed in the next patch to 40 intellect, that's a PTR version we're working on currently. Chaotic gem requirement is being reverted in the PTR too. For the belt socket, I've probably just missed changing the dropdown for the second OO list, I'll sort that out, thanks!

I can add the wrist/glove enchants if anyone really wants it, although why would you use them?

Regarding haste not adding up, remember all haste effects are currently averaged over their duration, the discrepancy is your Witching Hourglass trinket's proc. Intellect is purely what you get from gear on that page.

The forums are showing the last upload as a gif for some reason, I'll reupload tomorrow morning.


Thanks for the info. I will check if the discrepancies come from the trinkets.

Sorry, if I am steering up noobish things...but wondering about the formula to calculate SP from INT used in C3: =SUMME(K8:K112)+B3-10
Why is there a linear factor -10?

The Spellpower wrist/gloves enchants were at least on my server at the beginning the only affordable and only slightly worse than 50 haste on the basis that 50 haste translates into 27 Int. (1:0.54) and Int ~ SP on this scale. I consider them as comparable. Am I wrong?

#29 Tecton

Tecton

    Soda Popinski

  •  Patrons
  • 3,951 posts

Posted 19 January 2011 - 04:14 PM

The first 10 base intellect doesn't covert to spellpower, from memory.

I'll add the gloves/bracers enchant in my next update if it'd help.

#30 Starfox

Starfox

    King Hippo

  • Members
  • 578 posts

Posted 19 January 2011 - 07:15 PM

The first 10 base intellect doesn't covert to spellpower, from memory.

I'll add the gloves/bracers enchant in my next update if it'd help.


The first 10 of everythign seem to not benefit your character at all:
10 stra, 10 agi, 10 int, 10 stam, 10 mana (or you could say the first 10 intellect only give you 1 mana each)
Some weird legacy thing probably :o
Hello.
Light the fuse.
For all my homies.
Do not run, we are your friends.
SimulationCraft Druid Guy

#31 Hamlet

Hamlet

    Mike Tyson

  • • Guide Author
  • 11,567 posts

Posted 19 January 2011 - 07:33 PM

The Spellpower wrist/gloves enchants were at least on my server at the beginning the only affordable and only slightly worse than 50 haste on the basis that 50 haste translates into 27 Int. (1:0.54) and Int ~ SP on this scale. I consider them as comparable. Am I wrong?


An SP is really only about 3/4 of an Int, which matters for these comparisons.

#32 Hamlet

Hamlet

    Mike Tyson

  • • Guide Author
  • 11,567 posts

Posted 22 January 2011 - 09:04 AM

Once again, just throwing up whatever minor changes I've made in the past few days. I don't think it's actually much of anything, but just uploading it because I think Tecton was still going to do some things. I was actually going to put in some more of the random Tot4W loot myself, but it currently can't handle multiple entries with the same ItemID, by the way.

I do want to look at Glyph of Starfire a little. Someone pointed out to me that it's showing a large DPS bump if you select GoSF and "Moonfire on either Eclipse." This reminded me that it's not currently accounting for any clipping that might occur if you actually do both those things, so that has to be fixed. But even still, it shouldn't be that huge an error--it currently assumes only half of Moonfires are extended in that situation (so in other words, effective Moonfire uptime is slightly over 100%, but not by that much). I'm not sure why it's showing an increase of over 1000 DPS if you change Moonfire settings with the Glyph selected, I think there's something else fishy going on. In general, I should look at GoSF more, apparently it's not that far behind to begin with.

Attached Files



#33 Arythorn

Arythorn

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 288 posts

Posted 23 January 2011 - 01:56 AM

I do want to look at Glyph of Starfire a little. Someone pointed out to me that it's showing a large DPS bump if you select GoSF and "Moonfire on either Eclipse." This reminded me that it's not currently accounting for any clipping that might occur if you actually do both those things, so that has to be fixed. But even still, it shouldn't be that huge an error--it currently assumes only half of Moonfires are extended in that situation (so in other words, effective Moonfire uptime is slightly over 100%, but not by that much). I'm not sure why it's showing an increase of over 1000 DPS if you change Moonfire settings with the Glyph selected, I think there's something else fishy going on. In general, I should look at GoSF more, apparently it's not that far behind to begin with.



This got me thinking. Especially with 4 pc T11 causing you to delay your Sunfire/Moonfire refresh to maximize the bonus, Starfire might be a really, really good glyph with 4 pc. I'm currently sick as a dog so I don't know that I'm up for target dummy testing but I know Sunfire/Moonfire combined uptime went down from 95+% uptime pre-4pc rotation to less than 75% uptime post-4pc rotation. ~20% more uptime on Sunfire/Moonfire might get very interesting especially when some of that uptime will be high % chance to crit ticks that occur as you enter the opposite Eclipse.

Reality is it might not get the full uptime benefit especially if you add in movement or the like but I definitely see some real upside to the glyph with 4 pc T11 where previously I saw next to none. Starfire glyph was so far out of my mind as viable that I didn't even think to test the glyph when modifying my rotation for 4 pc. ./sigh

I'll update more once I feel well enough to test the theory.
Moonkin PoV Raid Videos found at: Moonkin PoV Vids and Arythorn Youtube Channel
Calc's Moonkin Guide found at: Calculated Balance PvE Guide at TheMoonkinRepository
Calculatéd Armory:http://us.battle.net...ulated/advanced

#34 Guest_aceofsween_*

Guest_aceofsween_*
  • Guests

Posted 23 January 2011 - 09:07 AM

There is one thing to consider though Calculated... When you delay the first cast of Moonfire by X seconds, it's only that first Moonfire really "feels" a delay. The time between Moonfires remains a constant*, regardless of when it is cast within the rotation.

Say you cast Moonfire at Time X normally.
With the 4t10 bonus, you would cast it at time X+8, at most to account for the duration of the bonus.
Your next Moonfire would be cast at time Y, and again it would be delayed Y+8 seconds.
We'll call the difference between Moonfires Time Z (the difference between X and Y): Z = X - Y
The difference with the 4t11 bonus: (X+8) - (Y+8), or following the order of operations: X + 8 - Y - 8, or X - Y + 8 - 8
The added time from the 4t11 bonus (in this case 8 seconds) cancels, and you are left with X - Y, which is still Z.

* = There is a slight variation here since the cast time of Wrath is 75% of the cast time of Starfire, however that means that you would actually refresh a Sunfire sooner in the rotation than Moonfire, making the added duration of your Moonfire a bit weaker.

This same principle can be applied to Starfall, which is what I was eluding to earlier. The difference is that Starfall fluctuates with the Lunar buff while Moonfire/Sunfire do not.

Editted to add:
All in all, I'm going to have to revisit this once I manage to get my hands on the 4t11 bonus (my guild is woefully behind sadly). A couple of things I noticed in tests on my own though...
1) If you delay Moonfire/Sunfire application by 2 nuke casts, it lasts into the next Eclipse
2) Sunfire and Moonfire are both extended. Sunfire lasts into Lunar, so it is extended when you start using Starfire. Moonfire is cast right before the end of Lunar, so it is extended in the Pre-Solar phase.
3) With both DoTs getting extended, you end up clipping both at the end of Eclipse, casting either spell immediately following the Wrath/Starfire that ends your Eclipse so that they land during the travel time (even Starfire's travel time is enough to get Moonfire off).

Ultimately, I think it'll probably come down to what happens with this pending Starfall change, but it is nice to know this possibility exists. A few things to consider are:
1) Moonfire/Sunfire will still get the crit bonus from the 4t11 bonus with this setup which could be the major boon here.
2) How will interruptions disrupt the cycle, particularly in the Pre-Lunar phase which needs to be passed through quickly enough in order to extend Sunfire.

#35 qae

qae

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 110 posts

Posted 23 January 2011 - 04:33 PM

I do want to look at Glyph of Starfire a little. Someone pointed out to me that it's showing a large DPS bump if you select GoSF and "Moonfire on either Eclipse." This reminded me that it's not currently accounting for any clipping that might occur if you actually do both those things, so that has to be fixed. But even still, it shouldn't be that huge an error--it currently assumes only half of Moonfires are extended in that situation (so in other words, effective Moonfire uptime is slightly over 100%, but not by that much). I'm not sure why it's showing an increase of over 1000 DPS if you change Moonfire settings with the Glyph selected, I think there's something else fishy going on. In general, I should look at GoSF more, apparently it's not that far behind to begin with.


I think the dps bump we get while clipping moonfire/sunfire on each eclipse in combination with the glyph of Starfire is largely due to the way refreshing dots works right now. By constantly clipping, we gain a significant amount of extra ticks if we are just below a haste breakpoint, since we never let it fall off.
Of course clipping it lower its damage per cast, but as it is extended by starfire, it is still more damage per cast than a regular moonfire/sunfire.

2) How will interruptions disrupt the cycle, particularly in the Pre-Lunar phase which needs to be passed through quickly enough in order to extend Sunfire.


Yeah, that's the major issue I foresee in any non-patchwerk-like encounter, because if we can't extend Sunfire in Lunar we loose half the efficiency of the glyph.

#36 Labrynth

Labrynth

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 15 posts

Posted 23 January 2011 - 06:51 PM

Apologies if I'm asking a stupid question here, buuuut;

I couldn't quite figure out how to remove a reforging completely from an item - there doesn't appear to be a blank option in the drop-down and the value is calculated. Feel like I'm overlooking something really obvious.

#37 Hamlet

Hamlet

    Mike Tyson

  • • Guide Author
  • 11,567 posts

Posted 23 January 2011 - 07:33 PM

You can just delete the cell (i.e. select the cell with the dropdown menu and press "delete"). We should add a blank menu option.

#38 Arythorn

Arythorn

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 288 posts

Posted 23 January 2011 - 07:57 PM

hooray double-posts
Moonkin PoV Raid Videos found at: Moonkin PoV Vids and Arythorn Youtube Channel
Calc's Moonkin Guide found at: Calculated Balance PvE Guide at TheMoonkinRepository
Calculatéd Armory:http://us.battle.net...ulated/advanced

#39 Arythorn

Arythorn

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 288 posts

Posted 23 January 2011 - 08:06 PM

Felt well enough to put in at least a little time on dummies today and initial results point to confirmation of my suspicion. Starfire glyph definitely seems to be outperforming Wrath on a stand-and-turret rotation using 4 pc T11.

First log is with Wrath glyph:

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Things of interest are the 73.3% combined uptime of Moonfire/Sunfire due to delaying refresh to get max benefit from 4 pc bonus. I was really fighting to keep my sustained above 18k on this.

Second log is with Starfire glyph:

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Things of interest are 93.7% combined uptime of Moonfire/Sunfire due to Starfire glyph. I was teasing 19k sustained most of this.

You absolutely will clip your Sunfire/Moonfire on occasion -- basically you end up refreshing a within Eclipse Sunfire/Moonfire when the next cast will take you out of the eclipse (usually around 5 energy in Solar, somewhere around 15 - 20 energy in Lunar). You will overwrite some reasonable duration at that point but the key is to sustain the uptime while never casting a non-Eclipsed moonfire/sunfire. I'll probably put a revised T11 rotation video out once I get more time on it and confirm this isn't a fluke.

At the moment though, subbing in Starfire did about what I expected and that is a good, good thing.
Moonkin PoV Raid Videos found at: Moonkin PoV Vids and Arythorn Youtube Channel
Calc's Moonkin Guide found at: Calculated Balance PvE Guide at TheMoonkinRepository
Calculatéd Armory:http://us.battle.net...ulated/advanced

#40 Guest_aceofsween_*

Guest_aceofsween_*
  • Guests

Posted 23 January 2011 - 08:21 PM

It's definitely not a fluke, of that much I can assure you. I was messing around with it myself. I don't have the 4t11 (I don't even have 2t11 yet), so my gear is substantially behind. Regardless, I was able to post consistent numbers between 14.5k and 15k using the Starfire glyph when before I was topping out at around 13.8k with Starsurge. I was more than a little shocked at the amazing gain in damage, but I find the rotation to be a little easier to screw up, particularly if you mis-time your Sunfire (although with more haste the margin of error will come down).




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users