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[Balance] WrathCalcs


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#41 Hamlet

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 09:15 PM

Maybe the very favorable WC estimate isn't that erroneous after all then. I should look at it again and see what's really going on. When you guys are testing out GoSF on a dummy, are all of your Moonfires Eclipsed, NG'd, and extended?

#42 qae

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 12:43 AM

Yeah basically we can keep a 100% uptime on eclipsed, NG'd moonfire/sunfire. It never drops if we don't screw up. IS uptime will be lower however since we need to wait for eclipse to cast it if we want the NG on sunfire/moonfire refresh.

Sunfire /Moonfire will be extend to its full duration each time, but we will clip it significantly (2-8sec) since we have to cast it right after the last spell in eclipse no matter what.

Technically, it allows us to reach a soft spot in moonfire/sunfire usage, when we cast it only once by eclipse and it nevers fall off. We may reach a point when we have enough haste to do it without it and ofcourse the value of the glyph will drop the more we approach this point.

It should be quite easy to set a dps value to it, since it would be the dps value of applying eclipse status/NG status to every Moonfire/Sunfire that didn't have it in a standard rotation.


Edit : It could bump the value of mastery a bit, actually.

#43 Guest_aceofsween_*

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 01:37 AM

Um, IS doesn't change at all. You will cast IS at the beginning of every Eclipse, just like normal.

The only thing that changes are the placement within the Eclipse cycle of Moonfire and Sunfire and their durations (due to extensions). A good rule of thumb for calculating the uptime of Moonfire and Sunfire is to take the total time for Pre-Lunar and Lunar Eclipse for Sunfire and the total time for Pre-Solar and Solar Eclipse for Moonfire. That might seem counter-intuitive (it is to an extent), but you reapply these DoTs at the very end of Eclipse instead of the beginning, clipping whichever DoT is currently active.

To answer your question directly Hamlet, all Moonfires/Sunfires are extended, cast while NG is up, and while Eclipse is active. The extension, however, is not a flat 9 seconds because of the clipping.

Edit to add:
Pulling some numbers from Wrathcalcs and applying it to what I've stated above...

I get about 3 or 4 extra ticks of Moonfire/Sunfire per application with this glyph, which is equivalent to about 25,320 to 33,760 damage per Eclipse cycle at no extra cost in time. With a rotation length of 44.28 seconds, that would be between 572 and 762 additional DPS. When you add in the fact that I don't have the tier bonus yet, it's not hard to see how that number can jump to even higher amounts.

I still think WrathCalcs is somehow overestimating the Starfire bonus (1369 DPS from the glyph, and -27.09 MP5 somehow?), but it's definitely higher than the other glyphs.

#44 Tecton

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 09:49 AM

Working on it now, I've added blank spaces for reforging so you can select from the menu rather than deleting, if that suits you better.

Next target is multiple items with the same item ID!

#45 Starfox

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 01:01 PM

Um, IS doesn't change at all. You will cast IS at the beginning of every Eclipse, just like normal.

The only thing that changes are the placement within the Eclipse cycle of Moonfire and Sunfire and their durations (due to extensions). A good rule of thumb for calculating the uptime of Moonfire and Sunfire is to take the total time for Pre-Lunar and Lunar Eclipse for Sunfire and the total time for Pre-Solar and Solar Eclipse for Moonfire. That might seem counter-intuitive (it is to an extent), but you reapply these DoTs at the very end of Eclipse instead of the beginning, clipping whichever DoT is currently active.

To answer your question directly Hamlet, all Moonfires/Sunfires are extended, cast while NG is up, and while Eclipse is active. The extension, however, is not a flat 9 seconds because of the clipping.

Edit to add:
Pulling some numbers from Wrathcalcs and applying it to what I've stated above...

I get about 3 or 4 extra ticks of Moonfire/Sunfire per application with this glyph, which is equivalent to about 25,320 to 33,760 damage per Eclipse cycle at no extra cost in time. With a rotation length of 44.28 seconds, that would be between 572 and 762 additional DPS. When you add in the fact that I don't have the tier bonus yet, it's not hard to see how that number can jump to even higher amounts.

I still think WrathCalcs is somehow overestimating the Starfire bonus (1369 DPS from the glyph, and -27.09 MP5 somehow?), but it's definitely higher than the other glyphs.

Just wanted to add that I did some tests for GoSF. It seems the tooltip is wrong and it actualy is more like: +4s, up to +12s max
E.g.:
Haste: 15.67% + MKA
Expected base ticks:
11 = math.floor( (2*9) / ( math.floor(2 / 1.1567 / 1.05 * 1000 + 0.5)/1000) +0.5)
Dead Winds is from Gale of Shadows trinket, stacks up on dot ticks.
Posted Image
11 ticks as expected

Extending with SF: Just as a note, extending recalculates the tickhaste
16 = math.floor( (2*9 +3*3) / ( math.floor(2 / 1.1567 / 1.05 * 1000 + 0.5)/1000) +0.5)
Posted Image
18 = math.floor( (2*9 +3*4) / ( math.floor(2 / 1.1567 / 1.05 * 1000 + 0.5)/1000) +0.5)

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#46 Erdluf

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 01:40 PM

It could be that a GoSF just sees how many ticks you would get from a 3s MF (2 ticks for any normal amount of haste) and adds that to the MF. At 67% haste, that would increase to 3 ticks.

It could also be that GoSF sees how many ticks you would get from adding 3s to the current duration (starting after the next tick). That would typically be two additional ticks, but in conjunction with a large change in Haste, it might be more than that (or even a reduction in the number of ticks).

It could also be that Blizz just decided that adding 2 ticks was easier to implement (and usually correct) and did that.

If GoSF updates MF haste, you probably want the third SF to complete with NG. That would argue against using IS shortly after Eclipse.

#47 Arythorn

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 03:26 PM

Felt well enough to do some more target dummy testing as well as put together a quick video that shows the rotation modifications made to accommodate Starfire glyph. That said, I posted the update here (http://elitistjerks....p5/#post1850238) because although the spark that started this investigation began in the Wrathcalcs thread, the general purpose Balance thread is probably the better home for it. Hamlet created a separate Wrathcalcs topic for a reason methinks :)

EDIT: As a final note that is somewhat relevant here though, my dot timers are power auras that show out to the hundredths decimal and you can get a very real sense of the variation of how much time is added with each Starfire hit. It is definitely not a consistent 3 seconds.
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#48 Tecton

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 04:54 PM

Ok, haven't had time today to finish off the multiple items with same item ID issue, uploading the change that puts a blank entry on the reforging dropdowns for now.

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#49 Guest_aceofsween_*

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 07:06 PM

After doing some tests, I believe I've come to the conclusion that the tick rate is recalculated when Starfire lands.

Duing my first run through, I would cast Moonfire, then immediately cast 3 Starfires. The result was an astounding 21 ticks (normally, I would only get 11 ticks). I then ran a test by casting Moonfire then delaying the Starfires until after Nature's Grace expired. The result was only 18 ticks. Here's where things begin to get extremely tricky though... When I cast IS first (to get Nature's Grace up) then immediately extended the Moonfires, I wound up with only 20 ticks of Moonfire, instead of 21. I didn't bother waiting until after Nature's Grace expired to see the result, I have no doubts that it would have been a lower tick count.

So here's my major question. I've proven that the tick rate is recalculated when the spell lands, but then how is it possible to gain an extra tick by extending with Nature's Grace active, when it was not active during the application of the ability? The only conclusion that I can reach is that it recalculates duration and tick rate based on the remaining duration and the tick rate of the spell already active.

#50 Hidden

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 02:22 AM

Felt well enough to do some more target dummy testing as well as put together a quick video that shows the rotation modifications made to accommodate Starfire glyph. That said, I posted the update here (http://elitistjerks....p5/#post1850238) because although the spark that started this investigation began in the Wrathcalcs thread, the general purpose Balance thread is probably the better home for it. Hamlet created a separate Wrathcalcs topic for a reason methinks :)

EDIT: As a final note that is somewhat relevant here though, my dot timers are power auras that show out to the hundredths decimal and you can get a very real sense of the variation of how much time is added with each Starfire hit. It is definitely not a consistent 3 seconds.


Considering that a) the tick interval depends on haste and B) DoTs now always seem to end with their last tick, it was to be expected that the glyph wouldn't be giving a consistent additional 3 seconds. From a design perspective it doesn't even make sense for the glyph to still add 3 seconds now that MF ticks every 2 seconds so I expect it either to be an oversight from when they reduced the MF tick interval or an estimation to make the tooltip less complex.

#51 Hamlet

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 08:55 AM

If you back to the beta, I'd looked at this some then. Even at constant haste, you sometimes get variable ticks on your extensions, due to recomputing the remaining number of ticks and rounding. The result will depend on when exactly in the tick cycle the extension occurs. I don't know of any good way to model this, or to incorporate it into playing--it's basically random for practical purposes.

#52 Guest_aceofsween_*

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 07:38 PM

It's not though. The most bizarre facet behind this glyph to me was that the number of ticks for both Moonfire and Sunfire were either exactly equal or they were within 1 tick of each other. This was consistent with every single test I ran, except in cases where I had cast 1 more Moonfire/Sunfire than the other.

If I were always casting the DoT then 3 Starfires immediately, I could understand this behavior. However, in practice there is a large gap between Sunfires and Starfires, which you would think would throw off the entire tick-rate. In practice however, that doesn't appear to be the case. Therefore, as long as your haste remains constant I believe the number of additional ticks gained through Moonfire and Sunfire is also constant. As long as you have NG up every time you cast a DoT and every time you extend it (which we do), then the number of ticks gained from the 3 extensions should be the same.

I have no way to back this up yet, but that is how it appears to be working based on the tests I did on a training dummy. It's either that or this is just simply a massive coincidence.

#53 Hamlet

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Posted 26 January 2011 - 07:41 AM

It's not though. The most bizarre facet behind this glyph to me was that the number of ticks for both Moonfire and Sunfire were either exactly equal or they were within 1 tick of each other. This was consistent with every single test I ran, except in cases where I had cast 1 more Moonfire/Sunfire than the other.

If I were always casting the DoT then 3 Starfires immediately, I could understand this behavior. However, in practice there is a large gap between Sunfires and Starfires, which you would think would throw off the entire tick-rate. In practice however, that doesn't appear to be the case. Therefore, as long as your haste remains constant I believe the number of additional ticks gained through Moonfire and Sunfire is also constant. As long as you have NG up every time you cast a DoT and every time you extend it (which we do), then the number of ticks gained from the 3 extensions should be the same.

I have no way to back this up yet, but that is how it appears to be working based on the tests I did on a training dummy. It's either that or this is just simply a massive coincidence.


Now that I think about it, I'm not totally sure why I expected it to depend on exactly when the refresh occurred, so long as the tick rate is constant. After 1 refresh, you'll wind up with however many ticks you would have bad on a base 21-second DoT, regardless of the precise timing. The only weird issue is if tick rates change.

Ok, haven't had time today to finish off the multiple items with same item ID issue, uploading the change that puts a blank entry on the reforging dropdowns for now.


Did you ever upload a TreeCalcs with updated item list somewhere?

#54 Tecton

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Posted 26 January 2011 - 09:39 AM

Did you ever upload a TreeCalcs with updated item list somewhere?


I'll get one uploaded with the recent changes shortly (next couple of days). Wanted to make sure OO was working properly before I did all of the stuff for it again.

#55 Moonwhisper

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Posted 26 January 2011 - 02:36 PM

Ok, haven't had time today to finish off the multiple items with same item ID issue, uploading the change that puts a blank entry on the reforging dropdowns for now.



Not sure if this new version wrathcalcs 110124 PTR is intended to be usable on OO but the reforging value cells, the (sub)total value cells of spirit, crit, haste, mastery and hit on top of the sheet and in column C as well as the stat summaries of spirit,crit, haste, mastery and hit show err502. Also there is no value from the table taken if you choose a stat for reforging.

I recommend that all OO users still stick to 110118 PTR till the error is eliminated.

Ready to continue with bug testing on future versions if I dont get banned w/o reason again.

#56 Tecton

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Posted 26 January 2011 - 03:12 PM

Did you enable OpenOffice mode before testing?

#57 Hamlet

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Posted 26 January 2011 - 07:32 PM

Now that I think about this more--what precisely does happen when you extend a DoT?

Say I have a Moonfire with a 1.8s tick time, 18s duration. On cast I get an 18s debuff with 10 scheduled ticks. Somewhere in there I cast SF to extend. Now 3s are supposed to be tacked onto the end of the debuff. Since that's not integral, I think it rounds to 3.6 sec. So I get a 21.6s, 12-tick DoT with one refresh (best I can remember from what I observed on beta).

But what happens on the second refresh? I doubt that it records that the length of the DoT "should" be only 21s and extends to 24. I imagine it tried to add 3s again, which will again be rounded to 3.6. Is this what you were getting at above, ace?

In other words, if your MF tick rate is between 1.2s and 2s, you should always get exactly two ticks from a refresh?

I'll see if I can check this in-game, before I worry about changing haste buffs.

#58 Labrynth

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Posted 26 January 2011 - 10:15 PM

More of a 'why does this happen' question than anything else.

When I toggle Bloodlust 'on' my current stats go massively into the negative.

eg
Without BL


Crit rating: 654 1495.33 DPS
Hit rating: 1759 1494.48 DPS
Haste rating: 2037 1495.81 DPS
Spirit: 1463 1494.39 DPS
Intellect: 4547 1497.30 DPS


With BL

Crit rating:		654	-4861.72 DPS
Hit rating: 1759 -4862.57 DPS
Haste rating: 2037 -4861.24 DPS
Spirit: 1463 -4862.66 DPS
Intellect: 4547 -4859.75 DPS
Mastery: 490 -4861.64 DPS


Now, I'm assuming that popping Lust doesn't immediately cause all my gear to become worthless, so I was just wondering if anyone knew what was going on here?

This is with the 110113 PTR version of the sheets.

edit: Thanks Hamlet - I don't think I'd ever hit F9 on WrathCalcs before. Made quite a lot of difference to the numbers I'm seeing!

#59 Hamlet

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Posted 26 January 2011 - 10:17 PM

Need to refresh the tables by pressing F9 (Cmd-= on Mac) anytime you want to find the DPS/MP5 values of your stats with a new setup.

#60 Moonwhisper

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Posted 27 January 2011 - 12:24 AM

Did you enable OpenOffice mode before testing?


Yes I enabled OO mode on the charsheetdata page.




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