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DPS Warrior BiS Discussion


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#1 Symphonia

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Posted 16 January 2011 - 02:52 AM

First off: Made chardev profiles since it's easier for me to show reforging and gemming. If it's a problem, I can make a table with links to all the gear and gems and information with reforging. I also included no professions because I'd like to discuss what our optimal gear is, not what the best professions are. Considering professions just add more strength I don't think it'd change our BiS depending on what professions we have.
Anyways these aren't set in stone, thus the "Discussion" in the title. And remember things are subject to change as patch notes are updated and changed.

I added two different sets for TG as I haven't really simmed enough to predict if hit will outpace mastery, like it has with SMF. The secondary stats are still prioritized correctly for the more important ones.

Fury Priority|

Stat


1st|8% hit
2nd|26 Expertise
3rd|Crit
4th|Mastery or Hit
5th|Haste


[TABLE]HEROIC BIS|DPS|Patch
Fury: Titan's Grip Mastery Heavy|27,659|4.0.6

Fury: Titan's Grip Hit Heavy|27,635|4.0.6

Fury: Single-Minded Fury|27,217|4.0.6

Arms|26,636|4.0.6[/TABLE]

[TABLE]NORMAL BIS
Fury: Titan's Grip Mastery Heavy

Fury: Titan's Grip Hit Heavy

Fury: Single-Minded Fury

Arms[/TABLE]



Notes:
  • The random enchantments to things such as the Cloudburst Ring can cause wrong stats to show up in chardev when you reforge them.
  • Again, this is not a definite BiS list. Until more testing, simulating, spreadsheeting and what have you, have been done, this is currently just for discussion and feedback.
  • Let me know if you have any suggestions.


Could really use some suggestions and input. If you have a better idea of reforging, different gear, enchants, gems, etc., feel free to post constructive comments.

#2 Kylael

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Posted 16 January 2011 - 03:16 AM

Aren't Sky Strider legs & set gloves better for Fury? Less overall Mastery, in addition to Strength socket bonuses. I can't find how you're supposed to add the random enchantments in Enchant on this template in order to confirm, though.

#3 hellord

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Posted 16 January 2011 - 03:23 AM

Things I'm not sure of:

  • Again: better way to reforge and optimize expertise? Currently over the cap by .74.
  • Secondary trinket. There's a few options I can see here: , and . As far as I know there is no heroic version of , I read a blue post saying there are currently no heroic trash epics in the game. Is this intended or a bug? Basically, are they planning on implementing them (could really use some confirmation here)? I see being incredibly good because the passive is our best secondary stat and the on-use can be used with every Deadly Calm. The passive on is decent but considering how awful haste is, and how it's going to be worse after the patch, is it really worth it? extra hit allowing us to reforge excess hit into more crit and a passive 380 STR seems to make it better than .

Could really use some suggestions and input. If you have a better idea of reforging, different gear, enchants, gems, etc., feel free to post constructive comments. But I feel pretty confident in both those profiles other than the things I mentioned.


I don't know if they'll ever introduce heroic trash drops, however for arms I wouldn't go for the expertise cap before we have solid data on its value thus might not be ideal even against lower level items.
has the issue of not being readily available at the start and is a solid 380 str stacking up in a very small time with hit being very high value and reforgeable to our best secondary. might be worse than both of those if our haste->dps ratio is what we can expect from a 60%AP HS. with its static str and the proc working on mastery and multitarget abilities is surely competitive and I wouldn't exclude it totally (may have different values for different fights).
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#4 Symphonia

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Posted 16 January 2011 - 03:37 AM

Aren't Sky Strider legs & set gloves better for Fury? Less overall Mastery, in addition to Strength socket bonuses. I can't find how you're supposed to add the random enchantments in Enchant on this template in order to confirm, though.

I'm not really sure to be completely honest. After checking a few sites, I can't find any information on what the actual bonuses are. If you have the stats feel free to post them.

I don't know if they'll ever introduce heroic trash drops, however for arms I wouldn't go for the expertise cap before we have solid data on its value thus might not be ideal even against lower level items.
has the issue of not being readily available at the start and is a solid 380 str stacking up in a very small time with hit being very high value and reforgeable to our best secondary. might be worse than both of those if our haste->dps ratio is what we can expect from a 60%AP HS. with its static str and the proc working on mastery and multitarget abilities is surely competitive and I wouldn't exclude it totally (may have different values for different fights).

I think it really depends on how long the fight is for the effectiveness of , depending on your second trinket of course. Obviously you would rather time Deadly Calm with the proc from than . But then it depends on how procs lineup for future Deadly Calms. True enough on the matter of expertise. Though, I still believe being able to reforge the expertise and the proc just from pure ilevel might beat out the lower trinkets. I didn't even consider the AoE/mastery effects on . I'm probably going to get one and try it out as arms next reset since we may be trying H: Maloriak anyway. I'll add it to the list for now. Thank you for your input.

#5 Kylael

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Posted 16 January 2011 - 04:04 AM

Item suffix - Wowpedia - Your wiki guide to the World of Warcraft is the most accurate resource I've seen regarding the random enchantments. For some reason, battle.net, Wowhead, etc. don't display them properly, and omit one or both of the secondary stats. For example, my armory shows neither the expertise on my legs, or the fact that they are reforged. Earthshaker (crit/hit) or Landslide (hit/exp) pieces are excellent right now, and the Cloudburst rings and Sky Strider belts are competitive for being best in slot as well as the legs.

#6 Stonestrike

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Posted 16 January 2011 - 04:17 AM

This is regarding Fury,

Currently the way Simcraft and actual in-game logs have shown is that stacking hit beyond our imagination doesn't seem to be the best way to go. To put my very rough understanding quite basically, the more hit we have, the greater our Crit (and Strength) becomes, and stacking hit to the ceiling actually isn't our best option.

Form what Simcraft says, at around 16-17% chance to hit, our Crit value actually rises higher than Hit.

For an example, I (keep in mind I'm in a very bad gear setup till our next Ashkandi drops) have

-17.44% Hit
-16.86% Crit
-5.65% Haste
-12.94 Mastery (lolol)
-4409 Strength
-26 Expertise

and by normalized stat values are as such

Strength - 1.00
Crit - 0.6689
Hit - 0.6248
Haste - 0.4678
Mastery - 0.3331

This shows that I should aim for more crit at the moment, but the only thing I am not 100% sure is that will Crit always be better than Hit at this point, or will they slowly swap back and forth depending on your gear layout.

I'm not saying Simcraft has to be 100% right, but from its tests and what I've personally seen, as well as what some of the Furys in the top guilds in the world are doing, I think I'm safe to say that stacking Hit blindly is not the best way to correctly gear your character.

I'd rather not go into the PTR changes and our Hit needs since I've done little testing on the PTR about it. But I am interested to see where our Mastery/Haste values turn out, with our intensive Mastery and Raging Blow buff.

Other than that, I completely agree with your Fury BiS list, and that the Gloves are the way to go for our off tier piece.

Edit: I do have to agree, the rings and belt from ToFW might be better than the ones you currently show, and I guess the Legs from Al'Akir might be a possibility for BiS as well. Picking an ugly piece of gear with Haste/Mastery on it might have swayed our judgment.

#7 Symphonia

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Posted 16 January 2011 - 04:43 AM

Item suffix - Wowpedia - Your wiki guide to the World of Warcraft is the most accurate resource I've seen regarding the random enchantments. For some reason, battle.net, Wowhead, etc. don't display them properly, and omit one or both of the secondary stats. For example, my armory shows neither the expertise on my legs, or the fact that they are reforged. Earthshaker (crit/hit) or Landslide (hit/exp) pieces are excellent right now, and the Cloudburst rings and Sky Strider belts are competitive for being best in slot as well as the legs.

Thanks for this, just wish there was a way to implement it into the chardev profile, to see how it affects our overall stat caps and what needs to be reforged.

This is regarding Fury,

Currently the way Simcraft and actual in-game logs have shown is that stacking hit beyond our imagination doesn't seem to be the best way to go. To put my very rough understanding quite basically, the more hit we have, the greater our Crit (and Strength) becomes, and stacking hit to the ceiling actually isn't our best option.

Form what Simcraft says, at around 16-17% chance to hit, our Crit value actually rises higher than Hit.

This shows that I should aim for more crit at the moment, but the only thing I am not 100% sure is that will Crit always be better than Hit at this point, or will they slowly swap back and forth depending on your gear layout.

I'm not saying Simcraft has to be 100% right, but from its tests and what I've personally seen, as well as what some of the Furys in the top guilds in the world are doing, I think I'm safe to say that stacking Hit blindly is not the best way to correctly gear your character.

I'd rather not go into the PTR changes and our Hit needs since I've done little testing on the PTR about it. But I am interested to see where our Mastery/Haste values turn out, with our intensive Mastery and Raging Blow buff.

Doesn't surprise me at all. I actually made a similar post on another forum regarding something extremely close. In short I just mentioned that while crit may be slightly better than hit, hit seems to be the most consistent and safest way to increase DPS. Shha put it better than I could have in the simple questions thread when he said:
  • "Its simply harder to play. Thats why I get so much hit even though its not better then str"
  • "We get more prone to RNG, which generally is bad. You want to do reliable good damage, not from being very low to pulling aggro from an attempt to another."
Except replace str with crit. By top furys do you mean actually top parses or do you just mean in top guilds? It's hard to tell since most top guilds aren't posting their WoL so it's difficult to see how they're actually doing. And I've found if someone not stacking hit is ranking high on WoL it's usually due to RNG. I spent a few hours going through WoL parses of top warriors and seeing some with significantly less hit than I have but missed as much as I should be missing and some getting the benefit of tricks.

I don't see mastery rising that high since they already changed the RB change from 145% to 120%, so we're only talking about a 10% increase in weapon damage (not gonna go into the math of our other %damage effects, just stating the RB change). And the mastery buff wasn't big enough to warrant extra haste for higher enrage uptime (assuming this is what you meant of course) or favoring mastery. Don't get me wrong, it'll increase their value but crit will still yield much more benefit due to having a secondary effect of more haste and overall more damage to everything. As far as hit goes, I'm in the same boat as you, I haven't been able to do any testing on the PTR, but everything seems to point to hit being less valuable, at least compared to other stats.

Apologies if this post seemed rude, was trying to get my points across but after reading it seemed a bit condescending and that was not my intention. Thank you for your input.

On a related note, if someone knows a different site or tool that will allow me to select gear, reforge, gem, etc. it and actually has the Conclave drops implemented correctly, please let me know.

#8 Rack

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Posted 16 January 2011 - 12:19 PM

I took a minute and input the gears in the Arms suggested BiS list into WoWReforge. I might have hit both caps on the head but for the moment, double-stat optimization is limited to 12 out of the possible 17 slots due to the massive increase in search space. But with single-stat optimization on hit, then some manual tweaking, I got pretty close: (drag and drop link)
http://www.shackpics...wgdwrx80fpe.png
This assumes the gems slotted and no enchants or socket bonuses that have exp or hit on them.

#9 Shha

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Posted 16 January 2011 - 06:58 PM

Since I was quoted i feel obliged to add some points:

- Its not set in stone. Yes hit play is easier but of course there is a certain treshold where you want to put extra effort into your play. However lets look at it closer. Using the figured from this thread lets see for SEP values posted.

Crit vs Hit

Extra 1200 hit rating (10% hit) vs 1200 crit rating. 0.04 STR diff per point (using values from post in this thread - feel free to add yours) . 48 STR benefit from going crit. 48 str in raid is less 1% of our STR. Its definitely less then 1% of our dps - in the realm of 0.5% dps. If you do 20k, the difference will be 100 dps.

So we talk about a theoretical gain of 100 dps, vs actually a VERY noticable rage generation. Difference between lets say 8% hit and 18% hit. Just as yourself a question - can you make up 100 dps, by simply being more free to look around and find good target switch opportunities, being more reliable to catch those interrupts for Rude interruption etc? I feel yes.

Now if we talk about STR vs hit, we talk about gain of 380 STR or a good 700-800 dps increase. Now that amount of dps is harder to compensate by having "easier" play. So I will definitely switch to STR gemming come patch - right now I feel being able to use good meta by adding hit gems compensates a lot of those 700-800 dps, and decided to stick with hit - but again, thats only because of current meta problems.

#10 sungdo1004

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Posted 16 January 2011 - 07:51 PM

Is your Fury BiS for TG only or SMF isn't just the way to go at this current patch?

#11 Symphonia

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Posted 16 January 2011 - 08:19 PM

Now if we talk about STR vs hit, we talk about gain of 380 STR or a good 700-800 dps increase. Now that amount of dps is harder to compensate by having "easier" play. So I will definitely switch to STR gemming come patch - right now I feel being able to use good meta by adding hit gems compensates a lot of those 700-800 dps, and decided to stick with hit - but again, thats only because of current meta problems.

Thanks for your input. This was exactly my thinking and why I gemmed/reforged the way I did in the profiles.

Is your Fury BiS for TG only or SMF isn't just the way to go at this current patch?

I'm not sure on the viability of SMF come next patch, but currently it's not as good as TG. It's hard to evaluate the changes effects on SMF unless I really dig through WoL since it's not possible to filter through the top parses by TG vs SMF. The only way to really find a parse is looking at the actual log, which makes it very annoying. Anyhow, since the patch has both a negative and positive impact on SMF vs TG, without actual good parses to evaluate, it's difficult to tell the viability.

On that note, I could add a SMF BiS gear list but currently the only thing that would be different is changing the weapons to x2 and reforging the haste to hit. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Oh and before I forget:

I didn't even consider the AoE/mastery effects on [Darkmoon Card: Hurricane]. I'm probably going to get one and try it out as arms next reset since we may be trying H: Maloriak anyway.

Managed to snag one and will go arms this reset to do some testing on the trinket as well as looking through some arms parses to do some math on how it matches up to other trinkets.

#12 XElrichX

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Posted 16 January 2011 - 11:50 PM

Unheeded Warning on the PTR. The proc changed to "Your melee attacks have a chance to increase your weapon damage by 680 for 10 seconds". How does this effect our BIS trinkets if at all? With an uptime of 10 seconds on the proc the ICD would be 50 seconds.

I am not really a numbers type person but this would effect (for Arms and Fury):

-Autoattacks
-Raging Blow (scales with Mastery for RB)
-Colossus Smash
-Slam
-Whirlwind (situational)
-Overpower
-Mortal Strike
-Rend
-Bladestorm
-Deep Wounds (Would the increased weapon damage stick and roll through as long as you keep the DOT up? Not sure the interaction with Deep Wounds and weapon damage increase. Is it anything like tricks and lock dots used to be, etc?)

(I am probably missing some but HS and BT are based off of AP)

There any way to theorycraft how this trinket will match up against the others (including heroic trinkets) for purpose of BIS gearing?

#13 landsoul

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Posted 17 January 2011 - 04:09 AM

Fury:

Offpiece
Pauldrons of the Great Ettin (H)
Set
4 piece
Other gear
Glittering Epidermis (H)
Bracers of the Mat'redor
Belt of Absolute Zero (H) or Sky Strider Belt of the Earthshaker/Earthfall (H) {Crit/Hit or Haste}
Massacre Treads (H)
Cloudburst Ring of the Earthshaker/Earthfall (H) {Crit/Hit or Haste}
Dargonax's Signet
Weps
Reclaimed Ashkandi, Greatsword of the Brotherhood (H)
Reclaimed Ashkandi, Greatsword of the Brotherhood (H)
Trinks
Fury of Angerforge {Crushing Weight is bad}
Heart of Rage (H)
Crossfire Carbine

Self-Buffed Stats (Raid)
AP 12122 (14923)
Speed 3.63 (3.3) [2.64]
Haste 4.69% (5.16%)
Hit 9.67%
Crit 25.61% (25.75%)
Exp 25.77
Mastery 16.89 [94.54%]



reforge to crit and mastery out of hit, extra exp, and haste
gem STR or STR/Hit or STR/Crit depending on socket bonus

This build is based off of an adolescent 4.0.6 spreadsheet build. For the being extremely low on hit, I guess it would be viable if one simply layed off the HS key and only hit it if one was in danger of going too far passed 100 rage.
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#14 ComMcNeil

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Posted 17 January 2011 - 06:38 AM

reforge to crit and mastery and any hit or exp you need
gem STR or STR/Hit or STR/Crit depending on socket bonus or need


Can you elaborate more on the stat weights then for 4.0.6? Based upon your statement, I guess after STR, its Hit (<8) > Expertise (<26) > Crit > Mastery > Hit (<27) > Haste? Question is, if we are that low on haste AND hit, how will it play out. I have ~19% hit currently and still get miss streaks. (even 6 times miss yesterday...)

edit: I also did a chardev of Landsouls BiS list chardev 8 - Cataclysm Beta . I am not sure, if everything is correct, as he left out a few slots and I had to guess. Also my stats are not identical to his.

#15 Bloodhawker

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Posted 17 January 2011 - 09:28 AM

Thanks for this, just wish there was a way to implement it into the chardev profile, to see how it affects our overall stat caps and what needs to be reforged.

LeMartin added support for the random enchantment properties some time ago. After equipping the item, you can select a suffix on the enchanting tab, above the filter options that are there for any item.

#16 landsoul

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Posted 17 January 2011 - 01:10 PM

Can you elaborate more on the stat weights then for 4.0.6? Based upon your statement, I guess after STR, its Hit (<8) > Expertise (<26) > Crit > Mastery > Hit (<27) > Haste? Question is, if we are that low on haste AND hit, how will it play out. I have ~19% hit currently and still get miss streaks. (even 6 times miss yesterday...)

edit: I also did a chardev of Landsouls BiS list chardev 8 - Cataclysm Beta . I am not sure, if everything is correct, as he left out a few slots and I had to guess. Also my stats are not identical to his.


Legs are supposed to be the set legs, ring/belt are of the earthbreaker, not earthshaker. Also remember blue gems are no longer necessary for Meta activation.

If you try to sit at around 65 rage (Two connects will put you right at 100) and not HS until you go over you will be fine with low hit just hitting BT/RB/CS. It will take you 4-5 seconds to run completely dry from 65 rage without outside source.

And like I said, the stats I put there won't be exactly right. Also, those random enchantments may not even exist on those items either... I was just speculating they did. We'll have to find out exactly what random enchantments exist and what don't.
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#17 ComMcNeil

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Posted 17 January 2011 - 02:34 PM

Regarding Meta and so on, yes, purely STR will probably yield better results so I updated the profile with new gemming, taking only +10 STR when I can get it with an orange gem, ignoring "blue +10 STR bonuses". Chardev did also not include "of the Earthbreaker" and according to a wowhead comment, the 4 suffixes from wowpedia are also listed on the official wow site, so maybe not every possible suffix is available for epics.

#18 Druckers

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Posted 17 January 2011 - 06:28 PM

Legs are supposed to be the set legs, ring/belt are of the earthbreaker, not earthshaker. Also remember blue gems are no longer necessary for Meta activation.

If you try to sit at around 65 rage (Two connects will put you right at 100) and not HS until you go over you will be fine with low hit just hitting BT/RB/CS. It will take you 4-5 seconds to run completely dry from 65 rage without outside source.

And like I said, the stats I put there won't be exactly right. Also, those random enchantments may not even exist on those items either... I was just speculating they did. We'll have to find out exactly what random enchantments exist and what don't.


I don't believe that Of the Earthbreaker random enchant exists. I did quite a bit of searching and it exists here:
Item suffix - Wowpedia - Your wiki guide to the World of Warcraft

However it may not be implemented into the game according to:
Cloudburst Ring - Game - World of Warcraft

#19 Symphonia

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Posted 17 January 2011 - 07:13 PM

Fury gear list

Self-Buffed
AP 12122
Speed 3.63 / 3.63
Haste 4.69%
Hit 8.05%
Crit 25.61%
Exp 25.77
Mastery 17.97


reforge to crit and mastery and any hit or exp you need
gem STR or STR/Hit or STR/Crit depending on socket bonus or need

This build is based off of an adolescent 4.0.6 spreadsheet build. For the being extremely low on hit, I guess it would be viable if one simply layed off the HS key and only hit it if one was in danger of going too far passed 100 rage.

Awesome. Is there anyway you can PM me a copy of this or something similar? I'd just like to take a look at the reforging you've done and make a table with all the gear + gems + reforging needed. I'd also like to see how much of a DPS loss it would be to prioritize hit over crit and mastery, which may cause me to make a hit reforged set up and bare minimum hit setup for those who are willing to risk the potential DPS loss for safer rage generation. And I'm assuming you have the Earthbreaker items implemented correctly? But I understand it's not complete (so you probably don't want people looking at it) and not entirely accurate, so if you have a problem with it, no worries.

Regarding Meta and so on, yes, purely STR will probably yield better results so I updated the profile with new gemming, taking only +10 STR when I can get it with an orange gem, ignoring "blue +10 STR bonuses". Chardev did also not include "of the Earthbreaker" and according to a wowhead comment, the 4 suffixes from wowpedia are also listed on the official wow site, so maybe not every possible suffix is available for epics.

I'd still go with blue +10 STR bonuses. Gemming pure strength gives you 40 STR, while getting the bonus gives you 30 STR and 20 hit. Even if you're going for a minimum hit setup, this will allow you to reforge excess hit into crit. In other words, unless somehow strength has more then double the value of crit or you can reforge all your excess hit anyway while maintaining cap, it would still be worth it.

#20 Symphonia

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Posted 18 January 2011 - 03:57 PM

LeMartin added support for the random enchantment properties some time ago. After equipping the item, you can select a suffix on the enchanting tab, above the filter options that are there for any item.

Just caught this now, thank you.

I don't believe that Of the Earthbreaker random enchant exists. I did quite a bit of searching and it exists here:
Item suffix - Wowpedia - Your wiki guide to the World of Warcraft

However it may not be implemented into the game according to:
Cloudburst Ring - Game - World of Warcraft

Not sure how reliable this is since it's not even showing both secondary stats. I guess we'll have to wait and see or if someone who actually has a piece or has seen someone with one could post.

Anyways taking what Landsoul said into consideration this is what I came up with myself:
chardev 8 - Cataclysm Beta

Notes:
  • I'm not sure why but after saving the profile I somehow gained 129 hit rating. I have both tabs open from before I saved and after and none of the other stats changed, only my hit. After messing around with it, it's acting like I didn't reforge the belt+ring everytime I save it. I've tried un-reforging it and I don't gain hit, then I lose hit after I reforge, but after saving it again I still gain the hit back. Before I saved it I had 9.67% hit, just as Landsoul does from his spreadsheet.
  • The STR meta is not currently available on chardev.
  • I haven't seen confirmation that of the Earthshaker exists so things are subject to change.
  • Again, this is not a definite BiS list. Until more testing, simulating, spreadsheeting and what have you, have been done, this is currently just for discussion and feedback.
  • Let me know if you have any suggestions.





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