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DPS Warrior BiS Discussion


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#21 Runtime

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Posted 18 January 2011 - 07:59 PM

Would be better than the Of the Earthshaker Belt due to its extra crit and red socket requirement?.

you would gain 10 str and 5 hit at the cost of 4 mastery and 9 crit if you reforge hit to mastery.

#22 Nimchip

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Posted 18 January 2011 - 08:25 PM

Wouldnt be better than the Of the Earthshaker Belt due to its extra crit and red socket requirement?.

you would gain 10 str and 5 hit at the cost of 4 mastery and 9 crit if you reforge hit to mastery.


If of the earthbreaker enchant doesn't exist, then it should be right up there with earthshaker. 180 hit/crit versus 191crit 171 hit. So yea, it depends on if the crit belt does exist (and using crit > hit over 8% like landsoul is) but it's definately one of the top pieces.

#23 landsoul

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Posted 18 January 2011 - 08:49 PM

Would be better than the Of the Earthshaker Belt due to its extra crit and red socket requirement?.

you would gain 10 str and 5 hit at the cost of 4 mastery and 9 crit if you reforge hit to mastery.


It definitely would! Thanks for catching that.

Actually, both belts are extremely similar in DPS due to the difference in their socket bonus and reforging in general. However, having Belt of Absolute Zero having a red socket instead of yellow, makes up a little bit of difference. The difference is in the order of about 10 dps out of 27k+ so I would say that in the scope of things they are the same.

Also, the Crit/Haste belt is only 2 dps behind Belt of Absolute Zero. So I guess you could get any of the three belts!
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#24 Volgon

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Posted 18 January 2011 - 09:23 PM

On the topic of trinkets, how much worse would Crushing Weight be compared to Fury of Angerforge and Heart of Rage? I obtained the normal mode version of it last night (I imagine the stat weights will remain relatively the same between BiS heroic and normal mode gear levels) and while Haste is not that great it does provide a large increase in attack speed. I am also partial to trinkets that provide passive Strength over other stats as I feel a wasted or diminished Strength proc (on movement or something like that) is worse than a wasted/diminished Haste proc.

Also, is License to Slay no longer a contender for our BiS trinkets? Are we going to be forgoing hit/haste in 4.0.6 because of the low rage requirements for a rotation that doesn't include Heroic Strike much?

#25 MilkTheTank

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Posted 19 January 2011 - 04:03 AM

Fury:

Offpiece
Pauldrons of the Great Ettin (H)
Set
4 piece
Other gear
Glittering Epidermis (H)
Bracers of the Mat'redor
Belt of Absolute Zero (H) or Sky Strider Belt of the Earthshaker/Earthfall (H) {Crit/Hit or Haste}
Massacre Treads (H)
Cloudburst Ring of the Earthshaker/Earthfall (H) {Crit/Hit or Haste}
Dargonax's Signet
Weps
Reclaimed Ashkandi, Greatsword of the Brotherhood (H)
Reclaimed Ashkandi, Greatsword of the Brotherhood (H)
Trinks
Fury of Angerforge {Crushing Weight is bad}
Heart of Rage (H)
Crossfire Carbine

Self-Buffed Stats (Raid)
AP 12122 (14923)
Speed 3.63 (3.3) [2.64]
Haste 4.69% (5.16%)
Hit 9.67%
Crit 25.61% (25.75%)
Exp 25.77
Mastery 16.89 [94.54%]



reforge to crit and mastery out of hit, extra exp, and haste
gem STR or STR/Hit or STR/Crit depending on socket bonus

This build is based off of an adolescent 4.0.6 spreadsheet build. For the being extremely low on hit, I guess it would be viable if one simply layed off the HS key and only hit it if one was in danger of going too far passed 100 rage.


Sorry, looking at this:
Item suffix - Wowpedia - Your wiki guide to the World of Warcraft

Aren't we possibly looking for 3 sets of stats on the Throne gear?

Of the Earthbreaker: crit mastery
Of the Earthfall: haste crit
Of the Earthshaker: hit crit

Which means you could get:
chardev 8 - Cataclysm Beta

Str: 10545
Hit: 607 (8.05%)
Crit: 2907 (23.79%)
Exp: 811 (27/27)
Haste: 718 (5.607%)
Mastery: 1551 (8.6512)

I know these values don't match up, but I couldn't equip throne of the four winds loot in crit/mastery
Also, the crit/mastery should be better than the belt of absolute zero.

#26 Symphonia

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Posted 19 January 2011 - 05:25 AM

with its static str and the proc working on mastery and multitarget abilities is surely competitive and I wouldn't exclude it totally (may have different values for different fights).

Posted a log of trying out the trinket tonight at http://elitistjerks.com/showpost.php?p=1845813&postcount=200 if anyone wants to comment (posted it there because I felt it'd be more appropriate).

Also I will update the belt to tomorrow when I get home from class and see if I can fix that annoying hit bug as well.

On the topic of trinkets, how much worse would Crushing Weight be compared to Fury of Angerforge and Heart of Rage? I obtained the normal mode version of it last night (I imagine the stat weights will remain relatively the same between BiS heroic and normal mode gear levels) and while Haste is not that great it does provide a large increase in attack speed. I am also partial to trinkets that provide passive Strength over other stats as I feel a wasted or diminished Strength proc (on movement or something like that) is worse than a wasted/diminished Haste proc.

Also, is License to Slay no longer a contender for our BiS trinkets? Are we going to be forgoing hit/haste in 4.0.6 because of the low rage requirements for a rotation that doesn't include Heroic Strike much?

A wasted haste proc is actually probably worse than a wasted strength proc depending of course on how much of it is wasted (not saying in terms of overall DPS but in terms of % lost from the stat). At least if you get part of the strength proc you're guaranteed to get at least one attack off with extra AP. You see no benefit from haste unless you actually attack long enough so it grants you an extra attack or gives you just enough rage to use an extra attack.

No will not be a contender because we get enough hit already just from the best available gear and even after reforging all hit. Yes read a few posts above and you'll see that running low hit will be theoretical dps gain.

#27 Nimchip

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Posted 19 January 2011 - 06:23 AM

Sorry, looking at this:
Item suffix - Wowpedia - Your wiki guide to the World of Warcraft

Aren't we possibly looking for 3 sets of stats on the Throne gear?

Of the Earthbreaker: crit mastery
Of the Earthfall: haste crit
Of the Earthshaker: hit crit

Which means you could get:
chardev 8 - Cataclysm Beta

Str: 10545
Hit: 607 (8.05%)
Crit: 2907 (23.79%)
Exp: 811 (27/27)
Haste: 718 (5.607%)
Mastery: 1551 (8.6512)

I know these values don't match up, but I couldn't equip throne of the four winds loot in crit/mastery
Also, the crit/mastery should be better than the belt of absolute zero.


Yes but Earthbreaker has yet to drop, so people are writing it off. Even if it does exist Absolute Zero is 2nd best, with Earthfall being a third. If it doesn't then Absolute Zero ties with Earthshaker and Earthfall would be 2nd.

#28 Toxicfallout

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Posted 19 January 2011 - 10:34 PM

I wouldn't put down haste so quickly and disregard as it highly sought after stat. [Crushing Weight] could still have potential to be BiS due to the potential Rage generation from what Haste offers.

For example: We see a large benefit from a Bloodlust affect, no? We are able to due more specials even with 9% hit rating due to this massive increase to haste.
~ Is less/more due to scaling
3.60 Stock Weapon Swing(SWS) + 30% haste = 2.52~ respectfully.

So first you factor your self, haste and flurry (granted it's up the entire time)
Assume you have 9% haste, unbuffed.
SWS + 9% = 3.32~ current Weap Swing

Then during combat.
Flurry 25% haste for whites *next 3 swings. 3.32 + 25% = 2.49~ *3
Not too shabby here without a BL effect.
Then you add the proc off CW, normal is 15~% (Half of BL effect)
2.49 = 15% = 2.11~
Pretty nice I'd say. You can imagine with all that, plus raid buffs and then a BL, it's insane.
Even though CW proc is RNG, like all :Equips: It's a good percentage of haste to your white rage generator.

The ingame character/doll screen shows haste calculating to overall dps; as stated previously.
I do understand the coeff of Crit per point is better than haste per point; it doesn't mean haste should be ignored entirely.
I'm saying, if you can produce a BL like effect from haste procs/ internal haste; then maybe it's a good investment to those with very low hit. Or low hit period.

I will continue testing, like always.

#29 Anuji

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Posted 20 January 2011 - 01:07 AM

The overall idea of haste looks incredibly nice, but (and this is a big BUT) if you get Rage due to Enviromental dmg it lowers the efficienty by an incredibly high amount.

If i recall it right, there was a calculation in the old Fury-discussion thread where it was pinpointed to a certain amount of Enviromental -Rage income where haste gets beaten.

In an static fight where u get no dmg from anything and your rage is effectivly only produced by whiteys then haste would be THE perfect stat, but thats nowhere near the reality in actual raidcontent.. you get constantly half blown up by anything.

With that Rage-income going from Enviromental dmg haste just isn't that great.
Also if you get that RNG-baste "equip:" procc in a situation where get half blown up, it only effects your whitehits.. due to the fact that you can't run out of rage for those specific few seconds.

#30 Toxicfallout

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Posted 20 January 2011 - 02:21 AM

Very true.
That would be the only case to where haste is a poor stat.

Still something I'm crunching out. There are plenty of times where I have large strings of misses and wish I had much more haste to get over that hill. I'm currently sitting at 13-14% hit rating.

#31 Volgon

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Posted 20 January 2011 - 03:21 AM

Personally if I had to choose between haste and hit I'd go with haste. Looking at License to Slay vs Crushing Weight, it seems as though even LtS is better than CW.

380 str vs 321 str passive (The stack on License goes up fast and doesn't fall off often)
321 passive hit (which can be reforged to crit) vs 1926 on proc haste (=to ~385 haste passive, cannot be reforged)

So if you reforge License you basically end up with a trinket that's
-380 str
-128 crit
-193 hit

I think the only redeeming quality in this comparison for Crushing Weight is that it can proc during buffs to give you bonus dps that can't be quantified here. Given the choice, however, I'd likely go with the big passive stats on License over the proc on CW.

#32 Volgon

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Posted 20 January 2011 - 04:51 PM

Don't forget also that Heart of Rage's proc being wasted would likely result in a larger dps loss than if CW's proc is wasted. I think the big redeeming factor of HoR is the big chunk of expertise you get from it, allowing you to reforge gear elsewhere, but in fights that aren't tank and spank like a spreadsheet is attempting to calculate it might lose out to other trinkets.

#33 landsoul

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Posted 20 January 2011 - 09:59 PM

When comparing CW to HoR proc and chances of not being able to use them both properly or effectively or whatever, let's take a look at some scenarios in order of greatest chance to occur to least:

1. Trinket procs, during an about average time of rage generation and other procs (HoR)
HoR - Scaling of avg# of abilities
CW - possible increase in rage generation allowing for additional HS, assuming rotation is already sufficient, extra melee damage
Notes - In this average scenario, this would just entail comparing the averages of the stats on both trinkets and considering the effects of ability scaling. The averages come to about the same, but the scaling of a bigger chunk of STR on abilities with other avg procs and mods comes ahead of a secondary stat.

2. Trinket procs, but fully spanned duration of mediocre or lull in rage generation (CW)
HoR - increase in damage to abilities that you are able to hit, including specials and melee
CW - increase melee damage, a few more auto attacks which can generate an extra 1 or 2 abilities
Notes - CW comes a little ahead here, given that the extra swings generated did not miss.

3. Trinket procs, but fully spanned duration of high rage generation (HoR)
Notes - this is obvious, don't need more haste here..

4. Trinket procs and stacks with a lot of other procs for the full duration of the trinket (HoR)
HoR - Scaling of abilities with damage modifiers
CW - possible increase in rage generation allowing for additional HS, assuming rotation is sufficient
Notes - we all know how ability scaling works and the results that come from it. Scaling all damage is better than scaling melee for sure, and I'm pretty sure additional HS won't make up for that.

5. Trinket procs, but dps uptime during the trinket proc is interrupted (CW)
HoR - Longer proc duration and ICD
CW - Shorter proc duration and ICD
Notes - Depending on the length of the fight, CW can proc an extra time or 2 times, also, CW's proc durationis less sensitive to interruptions due to its shorter length, allowing it to be interrupted for less percentage of its overall duration.

6. Trinket procs, but you can't dps the target because of phase change, dps downtime, etc.. (TIE)
HoR - No overall DPS gain from trinket proc
CW - No overall DPS gain from trinket proc

Winner - (HoR)
Assuming most of the time our DPS does not get interrupted, HoR (and STR-proc trinkets in general) will outperform any other type trinkets in most situations. For a different type of trinket to be better, an unusual or specific situation must arise to justify it's use.
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#34 Twyki

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 07:42 AM

Hi, just try a bit in reforging symphonias profile and found a way to lower expertise . So we get a expertise value of 26.08 but we would loose a good % of hit, get a bit of mastery an a bit more haste, i know that we dont get a better crit or hit value but i just want to throw it in : chardev 8 - Cataclysm Beta

i dont reforge anything other than lower expertise, But i my view there is a better option: don't reforge that much hit, in order get a higher crit value. My idea is to get a higher flurry uptime (because i think flurry i one of the greatest dps increases the warri have) theoretical to get a 100% flurry uptime we have to crit within the 3 flurry hits, means a crit cap of 33,33% ( lowerd by improv. Crit of HS/RB/BT). just a idea..

#35 Sevani

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 12:07 PM

Great work youre doing here Symph. As Ive read everything here and been thinking about it over the last few days, would a different BiS list be in order if you were an orc? Say for instance, 2 Shalug'doom's+racial would almost get you really close to the expertise cap. If that were the case, could we not swap FoR for FoA. Or is the BiS list definitive for both factions?

#36 dedmonwakeen

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 03:17 PM

Since you seem to be use CharDev as your source of communicating profiles: Depending upon your level of trust in SimC given its Beta state you can simulate CharDev profiles by typing chardev=YOUR_PROFILE_ID_HERE on the command line.

I shamelessly stole the CharDev profiles in the first post to build the shipped BiS Warrior profiles in SimC. They will show up in the next (imminent) release.

#37 Symphonia

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Posted 22 January 2011 - 12:29 AM

Great work youre doing here Symph. As Ive read everything here and been thinking about it over the last few days, would a different BiS list be in order if you were an orc? Say for instance, 2 Shalug'doom's+racial would almost get you really close to the expertise cap. If that were the case, could we not swap FoR for FoA. Or is the BiS list definitive for both factions?

I'm actually not too sure. Landsoul said they were close for the OH but I can't be sure on the value of being able to drop 3 expertise for another stat vs the advantages of a slower weapon in the MH. I'll certainly look into it and make a list if it's worth it though.

Apologies for being a bit behind on updating this. Changed belt to and added the low hit setup to the first post. May end up removing the higher hit setup depending on the viability of it.

#38 Anduryondon

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Posted 22 January 2011 - 12:37 AM

Since you updated Fury with the cloudburst ring, I am pretty sure that this ring is also better than Ring of Rivalry for Arms.
Change chest reforge to mastery, earthshaker reforge hit->mastery and then you lose some haste for more crit.
€: Just reread the thread again, this is of course only if it exists.

#39 SeraNoxa

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Posted 22 January 2011 - 10:49 PM

just had [Sky Strider Belt of the Earthshaker] dropping from 10man normal conclave.
380 stam
232 str
160 hit/crit
yellow sock +10str

#40 Zakkaro

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 12:11 AM

The thing in question here is if 'of the Earthbreaker' exists, which has Mastery/Crit. The earthshaker is well known of.




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