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[Elemental] BiS gear and set-up discussion (4.0 and onward)


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#1 Jessamy

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Posted 17 January 2011 - 04:18 PM

This thread will collect the elemental BiS discussion into one place. This will keep the discussion in the main elemental thread on track, and will provide a standard format for a meaningful list. A BiS list has limited usefulness, and can lead to strange behavior, like passing on gear just because it's not on the list. But it can promote discussion that improves our understanding of the class.

The rules for submission of improved setups will follow in the footsteps laid out in the enhancement threads:

  • Race must be Tauren or Dwarf. These races provide no dps benefit to an elemental shaman.
  • Professions must be Alchemy and Enchanting. These don't interfere with normal enchants, and provide +80 intellect each.
Just listing a set of gear you think is good isn't helpful, you have to prove that's it's actually the best -- and not because it has the best stats, but because it provides the most potential dps. To that end, submissions for BiS gear sets have to include the following:

  • Provide a dps output value from simulationcraft (link) as evidence that your setup is an improvement over the current list. Submissions must be at least 0.5% (176 dps) better to warrant an update.
  • List the full set of gear you think is best, not just what changes you would make to the current best list. If the list is updated your post won't make any sense otherwise. Provide a link to your proposed gear with chardev. This has the added benefit of being a convenient way to import gear into the sim.
For consistency, use the following settings in the sim:
  • Under the Global tab, leave all settings at the default, except
    • Iterations = 10000
    • Length = 500
    • Vary Length = 20%
  • Leave all settings at the default in the Buffs and Debuffs tabs.
  • In the Scaling tab, if you want stat weights make sure to check the appropriate boxes.
  • Remember to include talents and glyphs in your chardev link, or your dps will be very low. 2/2 Ancestral Swiftness and Glyph of Unleashed Lightning are required for submissions, and Glyph of Fire Elemental Totem is not allowed.
With all that preamble aside,

Current BiS list

This is the list submitted in this post (link). Simulated dps was checked using simc-420-5. Future BiS lists will continue to provide credit to the submission author.


Simulated dps: 35220

EP stat weights:

[table]Int|1.26
Spi|1.53
SP|1.00
Hit|1.53
Crit|0.39
Haste|0.60
Mastery|0.60[/table]

Old BiS lists

Below is the final BiS list for tier 11 gear. This may not be the best available tier 11 gear profile anymore, as our mechanics changed with patch 4.2. This will no longer be updated though, and is only being preserved for historical interest.

Spoiler


#2 revulva

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Posted 17 January 2011 - 09:13 PM

Simulated DPS: 24537

chardev 8 - Cataclysm Beta

Edit 1: Forgot reforge on trinket. Profile and Simulated DPS updated.
Edit 2: Downloaded the latest version of SimC and re-ran the set.
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#3 Orogrim

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Posted 19 January 2011 - 01:10 AM

Simulated DPS : 25048

BiS used : chardev 8 - Cataclysm Beta

I hope I didnt make any mistakes when calculating this.

#4 Telkurac

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Posted 19 January 2011 - 03:00 AM

Simulated DPS : 25048

BiS used : chardev 8 - Cataclysm Beta

I hope I didnt make any mistakes when calculating this.


It appears that your meta isn't working in that profile.

#5 Orogrim

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Posted 19 January 2011 - 03:05 AM

It appears that your meta isn't working in that profile.


You're right, I just didnt want to swap with a 54 int 3% max mana considering it would change with the next patch.

Is that messing up the simulation, by calculating as if it was active?

EDIT
Okay. It seems that the simulator works as if the meta was active. So I switched for an Ember diamond, Simulated DPS : 24554.

BiS : chardev 8 - Cataclysm Beta

#6 Azuba

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Posted 19 January 2011 - 05:57 AM

Simulated DPS: 24768

BiS used: here

#7 Thela

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Posted 19 January 2011 - 05:58 AM

Hey, sorry about that og, but yeah I kinda threw you under the bus on your previous submission. Hope no hard feelings but yeah, simcraft will recognize no error in your gems/sockets. Your previous submission also had a gem in a blacksmith-only socket that had to be removed along with eng glove enchants.

I really don't care if someone beats my setup, but I was looking at building a spec where a heroic upgrade from my eng goggles would be non-set so I could save my points for other things, namely resto gear.

Also, a word to the wise guys: remember in your char weights that you need to hit mastery points at exactly/just over .5 points per to optimize the stat costs. Lets use 15.89 mastery as an example. It is a waste of .39 mastery stat usage. Twiddle with your enchants/reforging until you go just over 16 or forge/enchant more haste so it gets nearer to 15.5 mastery.

#8 apple1mak

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Posted 19 January 2011 - 06:46 AM

Is it confirmed that mastery works that way? I assumed that if i had .9 Mastery rating i'd be getting 1.8% Lightning overload despite the tooltip saying 1%

Simulated DPS: 24848

chardev 8 - Cataclysm Beta

#9 Nurideen

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Posted 19 January 2011 - 09:09 AM

simulated_dps : 24982dps

chardev 8 - Cataclysm Beta

#10 Orogrim

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Posted 19 January 2011 - 12:15 PM

Hey, sorry about that og, but yeah I kinda threw you under the bus on your previous submission. Hope no hard feelings but yeah, simcraft will recognize no error in your gems/sockets. Your previous submission also had a gem in a blacksmith-only socket that had to be removed along with eng glove enchants.

I really don't care if someone beats my setup, but I was looking at building a spec where a heroic upgrade from my eng goggles would be non-set so I could save my points for other things, namely resto gear.

Also, a word to the wise guys: remember in your char weights that you need to hit mastery points at exactly/just over .5 points per to optimize the stat costs. Lets use 15.89 mastery as an example. It is a waste of .39 mastery stat usage. Twiddle with your enchants/reforging until you go just over 16 or forge/enchant more haste so it gets nearer to 15.5 mastery.


Np. But there's nothing wrong with the BiS I listed there. I linked the wrong one with blacksmithing socket and engineer tinker, copy/paste error, but I already switched the link in my first post (also, the simulation were done with the correct BiS, so it's still an upgrade from the initial BiS (not >0.5% sadly).

It doesnt really matter yet, since some new BiS has popped and seems better than mine :)

#11 Stopokingme

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Posted 19 January 2011 - 04:04 PM

Also, a word to the wise guys: remember in your char weights that you need to hit mastery points at exactly/just over .5 points per to optimize the stat costs. Lets use 15.89 mastery as an example. It is a waste of .39 mastery stat usage. Twiddle with your enchants/reforging until you go just over 16 or forge/enchant more haste so it gets nearer to 15.5 mastery.


This is incorrect, while the character screen will only update the Mastery percentage at certain levels of Mastery, the actual value will change no matter how many you add. While this is hard to see for the Elemental mastery, it can easily be seen by speccing into Enhancement, adding/removing a tiny bit of Mastery, and comparing spell tooltips.
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#12 Thela

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 06:20 PM

This is incorrect, while the character screen will only update the Mastery percentage at certain levels of Mastery, the actual value will change no matter how many you add. While this is hard to see for the Elemental mastery, it can easily be seen by speccing into Enhancement, adding/removing a tiny bit of Mastery, and comparing spell tooltips.


Pretty sure it was broken during the pre-cata launch period where you had to hit the numbers on the dot. A lot of people complained about it, I just must have missed the boat on it actually being completely scaleable at all points in between either as bliz fixing it or testing proving it otherwise. No big deal, and my bad.

As such, and taking a bit of another route for BiS lists.... I've come up with this little gem, and by gem, I mean chaotic > ember for a meta, even if you have to socket green gems to get it.

chardev 8 - Cataclysm Beta

DPS: 25187.8

It seems its clearly better to gem for greens and get chaotic for now as per simcraft, updated 2 days ago and just freshly downloaded. Granted, this will all change as soon as we get the new metas bliz promises us in the PTR.

#13 Thela

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 06:47 PM

Ok guys, this is a bit of a cheat, but it came to me today to do some testing and attempt to 'preview' the new gems coming out from the PTR under the current build without adding in the new changes to mastery.

So this is what I figured:

If we use the fact simcraft is still not recognizing the broken aspects of gems I can use a chaotic and regem correctly for the new metas which will just need 3 red easily. If I take advantage of the two blacksmithing sockets it overlooks at gear check, I can gem a perfect brilliant bloodstone for 14 intel and a brilliant inferno ruby for 40 to add up to the 54 intel we'd gain from the new meta. I also regemmed for no green gems, put reckless ember topaz in their spaces and reforge to get the hit cap under control.

Now, the thing that wracked my brain was figuring out how to take 54 crit rating away in some shape or form. Its kinda impossible to just de-forge it into something like expertise because that'll throw off the forging later. So I decided the next best thing was to take a point out of Acuity for a 1% crit loss and put it in a non-dps affecting stat, run a sim, put the point back, run another sim, and average those two together as sort of a median line, even though that's still going to give a slight buff to the expected damage from the extra 35.64 crit rating(179.28/2= 89.64-54=35.64) I can't just make disappear.

Anyway, here's the way it turned out. Your mileage will vary:
1) 2/3 Acuity spec for -1 crit: chardev 8 - Cataclysm Beta
DPS: 25324.5
2) 3/3 Acuity spec for +1 Crit: chardev 8 - Cataclysm Beta
DPS: 25498.3
Final Average of both so we get a ballpark figure of the dps increase: 25411.4 DPS.

Take that number and remove the current BiS config's dps of 25187.8 and we end up with an extra 223.6 dps. After doing a little number crunching I've figured that the extra crit rating I couldn't get rid of is worth about 28.8 dps at this point of gearing and spec. Remove that and you've got the figure of 194.8 extra dps from the new gems.

So now we take out the extra 28.8 dps from the crit.... and come up with the grand total:

DPS: 25382.6

Of course this number is not gonna match up at all after we take into account the new Mastery stat weight that'll have to be figured due to the changes in Elemental Overload procs causing Rolling Thunder to proc. But we'll cross that bridge when we get there. I hope this helps some get an idea of what the new gems are worth.

#14 rellikz

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 02:24 AM

Looking at the Current BIS list in the initial post I noticed that the gloves are enchanted with 50 haste. Using the stat weights 50 haste equates to 30DEP, while using the 65 mastery enchant (while way more expensive) it is equivalent to 33.8DEP. I realize the increase is minimal especially for the cost, but this is something that I noticed every BIS gear submission did not include.

#15 Moshne

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 03:23 AM

Looking at the Current BIS list in the initial post I noticed that the gloves are enchanted with 50 haste. Using the stat weights 50 haste equates to 30DEP, while using the 65 mastery enchant (while way more expensive) it is equivalent to 33.8DEP. I realize the increase is minimal especially for the cost, but this is something that I noticed every BIS gear submission did not include.


The valuation of Mastery and Haste has been all over the place as the models have been adjusting to the Cata changes. Once the patch hits, Mastery and Haste get even closer together and you are likely right about it overtaking it, but earlier in the expansion that wasn't the conventional wisdom. While the stats were closer than say Haste:Crit, they weren't so close to make it worthwhile. (Additionally, the value on the stats changes depending on the fight dynamics. Most models are done assuming a Patchwerk style dynamic, despite the fact that few fights are actually like that. Mastery is a stat that drops in raw value pretty significantly (although it makes gains on haste relatively) as movement goes up, so if the values are that close, you might want to evaluate it in favor of reality. I included some example stat weightings using my own gear and the PTR model comparing movement to Patchwerk style for comparison)

-=PTR VALUES=-
?  Normal       Int	Spi	SP	Hit	Crit	Haste	Mastery
Scale Factors	2.7909	2.6610	2.1790	2.6601	0.8676	1.3527	1.2034
Normalized	1.0000	0.9534	0.7807	0.9531	0.3108	0.4847	0.4312

? Movement     Int	Spi	SP	Hit	Crit	Haste	Mastery
Scale Factors	2.2899	1.9675	2.0105	1.9455	0.7423	1.1056	1.0949
Normalized	1.0000	0.8592	0.8780	0.8496	0.3242	0.4828	0.4781


As with any DEP calculation, it is going to vary with your specific gear setup. Any generic stat weighting that is given is going to be wrong for your situation, they are just guidelines to get people on the right track that don't want to do the heavy lifting to figure things out. Similarly, BiS setups are a useful tool, but like any tool you they can be misused. Don't take them as more than they are worth.

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#16 ansga

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Posted 10 February 2011 - 11:50 PM

BiS list - chardev 8 - Cataclysm Beta

Simulationcraft DPS - 26449 DPS
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#17 iamajellydonut

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Posted 05 March 2011 - 04:52 AM

-=PTR VALUES=-
?  Normal       Int	Spi	SP	Hit	Crit	Haste	Mastery
Scale Factors	2.7909	2.6610	2.1790	2.6601	0.8676	1.3527	1.2034
Normalized	1.0000	0.9534	0.7807	0.9531	0.3108	0.4847	0.4312

? Movement     Int	Spi	SP	Hit	Crit	Haste	Mastery
Scale Factors	2.2899	1.9675	2.0105	1.9455	0.7423	1.1056	1.0949
Normalized	1.0000	0.8592	0.8780	0.8496	0.3242	0.4828	0.4781

Why is spirit higher than hit?

#18 JRambo

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Posted 05 March 2011 - 05:48 AM

BiS - chardev 8 - Cataclysm Beta

DPS: 26962 dps using Simcraft 4.0.6 release 11
DPS: 26301 dps using Simcraft 4.0.6 release 1

#19 Jessamy

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Posted 05 March 2011 - 01:19 PM

Why is spirit higher than hit?

Both enhsim (for enhancement only) and simcraft produce stat weights the same way. I'll go through the way enhsim does it as an example, since enhsim EP values are always normalized to attack power.

1. Do a simulation run with your current stats. Produce a final single dps value.

2. Increase your attack power stat by about 1 gem of value. Do another complete simulation run, and produce another final single dps value.

3. Divide the change in dps by the change in attack power. This give the dps value of one point of additional attack power.

It's helpful to think of this as a derivative -- this is the slope of dps vs. attack power, with all your other stats constant, at the point on the graph where your attack power is your current value.

In theory we'd get more accurate results by taking the limit as delta(AP) -> 0. However this isn't a closed form function, but a simulated dps burn. Every time the sim goes through a run, it gets a different dps number. That's why enhsim runs are at least 1000 hours, and in the first post of the elemental BiS thread I require 10000 combat segments. By taking the mean we reduce RNG. However even with this much smoothing, our dps plots are jagged, and this would be exaggerated with a smaller delta.

There's a balance here. We want as small a delta(stat) as possible, to increase accuracy, but we want as large a delta(stat) as possible, to decrease randomness.


4. Repeat steps 2 & 3 for all the other stats we're interested in.

5. Normalize the stats. In the case of enhsim EP values, stats are normalized against attack power. 1 point of attack power is defined equal to 1. So divide all your dps values (slopes) by whatever dps increase attack power yields.

For example if 1 point of attack power yields 0.5917 more dps* then divide all your stat weights by 0.5917. This will map attack power to 1.0, and shift all the others accordingly.

*I pulled this number out of the air, but it was in the range of values I saw when I was enhance back in LK.


So with all that as an over explanation, let's get back to your original question. Why does the sim produce different stat weights for spirit and hit, when we know they should be the exact same?

This gets back to the randomness I mentioned above. The sim does 10000 combat segments with extra spirit. Then it does 10000 segments with extra hit. These runs will have almost the same dps results, but not quite identical.

#20 Kfactor

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Posted 05 March 2011 - 08:42 PM

There's two new trinkets coming out in the next patch:

Necromantic Focus: Necromantic Focus - Item - World of Warcraft : 480 more mastery as long as we keep casting!

Variable Pulse Lightning Capacitor: Variable Pulse Lightning Capacitor - Item - World of Warcraft : Another Convection-like ability at our fingertips.

Necromantic Focus looks like our next BiS trinket. For the sake of argument, the new version of the Pulse Lightning Capacitor may give it a run for its money.

I looked at a couple combat parses on World of Logs:
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

From the last one I linked focusing on Dnt, I ran napkin math and I got a total of 239 spell hits. Of 239 spell hits, 140 of them were crits. That is a little better than 50% crit going on at BiS levels and that is not even including Flame Shock tick crits! So, the Variable Pulse Lightning Capacitor is capable of going off at least 10 times per encounter giving us an additional 111,100 to 142,800 damage done before taking crit into account.




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