Jump to content


Photo

Team Robot Gear, Gem, Enchant, and Reforge Optimizer


  • Please log in to reply
91 replies to this topic

#21 revulva

revulva

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 105 posts

Posted 01 February 2011 - 12:29 AM

Just an FYI - we posted a minor update fixing a couple small bugs people reported throughout the day. Change log can be found here:
Change Log
Team Robot developer.
Follow Mr. Robot on Twitter or Facebook for updates, feature releases, bug fixes.
Mr. Robot is now available on your Android and iPhone

#22 Starfox

Starfox

    King Hippo

  • Members
  • 578 posts

Posted 01 February 2011 - 01:59 AM

It treats spirit/hit as identical stats for moonkin, elemental, spriest. We can probably update the display to make that more obvious. It will always favor spirit over hit, though - just because spirit at least does a little something for your out of combat regen.

Ah, the infinity symble in the cap column for spirit was kinda misleading ;)
Hello.
Light the fuse.
For all my homies.
Do not run, we are your friends.
SimulationCraft Druid Guy

#23 LucidityAxel

LucidityAxel

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 183 posts

Posted 01 February 2011 - 02:44 AM

The tool suggests that reforging past the hit cap is optimal for my set of gear and stat weights:

Mr. Robot - Character Profile - World of Warcraft

The 50 mastery -> 50 spirit reforge on the neck would put me at 1763 rating, which is 21 points above the cap.

#24 MatsT

MatsT

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 485 posts

Posted 01 February 2011 - 12:38 PM

This one definitely gives a lower score optimized than it does on armory: Mr. Robot - Character Profile - World of Warcraft
It tries to replace a Haste Cogwheeel gem with a Hit gem and reforge spirit->crit to compensate.

#25 Gir

Gir

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 12 posts

Posted 01 February 2011 - 01:29 PM

Is there any option to disable it from reforging a certain item? If there is, I couldn't find it.
Anyhow, the reason I'm asking it since it's reforging Signet of High Arcanist Savor which currently is not reforgeable as the stats don't show up in-game.

#26 ayrea

ayrea

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 2 posts

Posted 01 February 2011 - 02:37 PM

I was testing on my low geared blood DK and when optimized it shows that I should use 5 JC gems while maximum allowed is 3.

Mr. Robot - Character Profile - World of Warcraft

#27 revulva

revulva

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 105 posts

Posted 01 February 2011 - 05:09 PM

LucidityAxel: I checked it and our tool comes out to 16.85% spell hit for him, just UNDER the cap, not over. Just to be sure, I double checked, and we are indeed calculating spell hit accurately

MatsT: I am not surprised that you are able to find an example where the optimization is very slightly worse. Like I mentioned in the OP, we are forced to use an approximate method in order to make the site usable. It is definitely possible for people to come up with slightly more optimal tweaks manually. This particular example is a little larger margin of error than I would like, though. We will see if there is any way to improve the algorithm. Thanks for the info!

Gir: There is no such option, you are correct. If that particular item is bugged in the game, we might be able to hard-code in an exception until they fix it.

Ayrea: Thanks for the link. We will fix that in our update today. FYI, I'm trying to check this thread regularly, but if you post technical bugs like this on our technical support forum (Technical Support) there are multiple people who read that board so we can respond to stuff faster.

Binkenstein: First off, we are aware that the chaotic meta is giving a slight DPS increase, even in it's current "broken" state. We decided to not take the time to implement these meta gems until 4.0.6, since it takes significant effort to implement each meta requirement in the optimization algorithm. Second, I will explain to you where our Elemental stat weights come from, since a lot of research went into them.
There is an Elemental BiS thread here: http://elitistjerks....ion_4_0_onward/

The folks in this thread have cleverly tweaked Elemental gear. Where possible, the method I use to create stat weights is taking known BiS gear sets and working backwards. One of the first things I noticed was that the stat weights SimC creates do NOT get us to the Bis setup. Here is a near-optimal set based on the SimC stat weights:
Mr. Robot - Elemental Shaman - World of Warcraft
This simulates out to about 3.74% lower than the BiS gear setup.

Using your stat weights from http://totemspot.com...l-guide-4-0-3/:
Mr. Robot - Elemental Shaman - World of Warcraft
This simulates out to about 9.34% lower than the BiS gear setup. Now, it looks like there is a problem with an interaction between these particular stat weights and the estimates we use for the Elemental set bonuses - we generally estimate set bonuses as a DPS increase, so we use the Spell Power weight to assess if they are worth getting. I modified your stat weights very slightly by bumping up spell power to get a more "fair" assessment of them:
Mr. Robot - Elemental Shaman - World of Warcraft
This simulated out to about 4.34% lower than the BiS gear setup.

So, I looked at the BiS Elemental setup and said to myself... why aren't these stat weights leading our optimization algorithm to the BiS setup? Using SimC's stat weights or totemspot's stat weights, the BiS set does not have the highest EP value. This means that the stat weights are not right. I tweaked the stat weights to create gear sets that are more optimal. Using the default stat weights on Mr. Robot's site, you end up with this:
Mr. Robot - Elemental Shaman - World of Warcraft
This simulated out to 1.66% less than the BiS setup. A portion of this can be attributed to the meta gem, which we are willing to accept until 4.0.6 patch. So, this achieves our goal of being within 1.5% of the optimal gear setup with our approximate optimization algorithm. Actually, I did find some stat weights that put me even closer to the BiS t11 heroic set, but then some weird stuff started happening at the t11 and pre-raid level. These weights still get good sets at all gear levels, although sometimes you can end up slightly under the hit cap. People can manually tweak the weights if being slightly under the hit cap with certain gear combinations bothers them.

So, TLDR: I think Mr. Robot's stat weights are more accurate than SimC's stat weights or totemspot's stat weights. We arrived at these stat weights empirically based on what the BiS elemental gear has been observed to be.
Team Robot developer.
Follow Mr. Robot on Twitter or Facebook for updates, feature releases, bug fixes.
Mr. Robot is now available on your Android and iPhone

#28 Toastmonger

Toastmonger

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 12 posts

Posted 01 February 2011 - 05:34 PM

For SV hunters some WotLK enchants can be better than Cataclysm enchants, specifically:

Enchant Cloak - Major Agility - Spell - World of Warcraft
Enchant Gloves - Major Agility - Spell - World of Warcraft

The optimizer replaced these enchants with Cataclysm variants on

Mr. Robot - Character Profile - World of Warcraft

#29 revulva

revulva

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 105 posts

Posted 01 February 2011 - 05:39 PM

Toastmonger - We will add those enchants into the list.
Team Robot developer.
Follow Mr. Robot on Twitter or Facebook for updates, feature releases, bug fixes.
Mr. Robot is now available on your Android and iPhone

#30 LucidityAxel

LucidityAxel

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 183 posts

Posted 01 February 2011 - 05:47 PM

LucidityAxel: I checked it and our tool comes out to 16.85% spell hit for him, just UNDER the cap, not over. Just to be sure, I double checked, and we are indeed calculating spell hit accurately


Thanks for the response. I checked again, and I must be missing something.

The pre-optimized setup has 1712 hit rating. Both the tool and the in-game paperdoll frame agree on this.

As far as I can tell, the optimization suggests exactly two changes:

head - 67 mastery -> 67 haste (no change to hit)
neck - 50 mastery -> 50 spirit (net +50 hit rating)

This is a net increase of 50 rating; 1712 + 50 = 1762 total, which is over the cap. The in-game paperdoll agrees with this figure, but the tool says the optimized set has only 1727 rating:

Mr. Robot - Character Profile - World of Warcraft

Is the tool suggesting some other changes to hit or spirit that I don't see? Where is it getting the 1727 total from?

#31 revulva

revulva

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 105 posts

Posted 01 February 2011 - 06:20 PM

I'll admit, I had to stare at this one for a little while...

We both agree that the original setup has 1712 hit rating.

My math shows the optimized setup as having 1726 hit rating on gear.

The optimization does the following with regards to spirit/hit:
Head: +121
Neck: +50
Back: -50
Chest: -87
Waist: +40
Feet: -10
Ring 1: -50

Net change of +14.
Team Robot developer.
Follow Mr. Robot on Twitter or Facebook for updates, feature releases, bug fixes.
Mr. Robot is now available on your Android and iPhone

#32 dedmonwakeen

dedmonwakeen

    Bald Bull

  • Members
  • 1,302 posts

Posted 01 February 2011 - 08:43 PM

The scale factors generated by SimC (or stat weights or equivalence points or ...) are relative to the fixed gear point at which they were calculated. If one were to start with a naked toon and pick gear to maximize the sum of stat*stat_weight products, then scale factors generated by SimC will have limited use in this scenario.

#33 Kaejin

Kaejin

    Great Tiger

  • Members
  • 841 posts

Posted 01 February 2011 - 08:52 PM

Mr. Robot - Character Profile - World of Warcraft

The enchant upgrades are pretty clearly accurate as well as the gem, however the reforging results in worse stats by a pretty large margin. The optimization lands me a few rating points over the hit cap, a few under the exp soft cap, and then with much less Mastery in favor of about 2.5% crit. You can see my overall score drops 32.53 points despite the gem and enchant upgrades.

You also say you consider Darkmoon Card: Hurricane BiS for DW frost in this thread but the optimizer continues to suggest Impatience of Youth instead.
Uulwi ifis halahs gag erh'ongg w'ssh.

#34 revulva

revulva

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 105 posts

Posted 01 February 2011 - 11:53 PM

dedmonwakeen: We understand that what SimC and other people's spreadsheets, simulators, formulators, etc. are trying to do when they create stat weights is to tell you the relative value of each stat at that particular gearing point. As stats change, the weights change. What we have been doing is reverse engineering the stat weights we use based on Best in Slot gear configurations. Between item level 346 and 372, stats just don't change that much. So, the weights still work well at all the gear levels, but the site becomes more and more accurate the better your gear gets. We allow for the "major" discontinuities such as soft and hard caps, but we ignore the small, gradual shifts. When I say that the stat weights that SimC creates don't always look right - that is because sometimes the weights would lead me to make changes that the simulator itself is telling me are less optimal.

Kaejin: We're going to put out an update later tonight. Our code that enforces the DMC: Hurricane as BiS for DW Frost DKs needs to be re-implemented. That will be in the update. As far as your example of an "optimization" that slightly reduces your total EP value - it looks like you just happen to have very optimal reforges on your gear already. The drop in EP value of 32.53 is about a 0.17% change, which would be within in the margin of error on our approximate method. (Keep in mind that about 12 of that is because of the run speed enchant being put on your boots reducing your mastery by 15.) That change in value can basically be seen as negligible. I'd say, upgrade your enchants, and leave your reforges where they are!
Team Robot developer.
Follow Mr. Robot on Twitter or Facebook for updates, feature releases, bug fixes.
Mr. Robot is now available on your Android and iPhone

#35 Kaejin

Kaejin

    Great Tiger

  • Members
  • 841 posts

Posted 02 February 2011 - 12:16 AM

I'll probably continue on with how I've been doing my reforging manually then, exchanging 2~ Mastery for 2.5% crit just isn't within my ability to accept. Not to say I don't like the tool, but I guess I'm far too anal about being at least at the hit and exp cap and then making sure my next best stat is as high as I can manage. :P

It certainly seems great for anyone who doesn't like to putz around with that sort of thing, though. I liked the original Mr Robot DPS simulator quite a bit as well. The GUI was always pretty nice.

Edit: Also, don't the Fleet meta and Lavawalker boot enchant share the same run speed increase? Once the new metas are introduced this won't be an issue, but until then it seems like an oversight.
Uulwi ifis halahs gag erh'ongg w'ssh.

#36 dedmonwakeen

dedmonwakeen

    Bald Bull

  • Members
  • 1,302 posts

Posted 02 February 2011 - 12:17 AM

Between item level 346 and 372, stats just don't change that much.


I was actually less concerned with the total statValue pts available then the relative distribution of various stats. It would be nice to be able to input ( InitialStat, StatWeight ) pairs, where your goodness function becomes a sum of StatWeight*(Stat-InitialStat) for each stat.

#37 Hotcooler

Hotcooler

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 9 posts

Posted 02 February 2011 - 02:38 AM

I was testing on my low geared blood DK and when optimized it shows that I should use 5 JC gems while maximum allowed is 3.

Mr. Robot - Character Profile - World of Warcraft


Pretty much the same here, as it wants me to plug in 4 JC gems.

Posted Image

#38 LucidityAxel

LucidityAxel

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 183 posts

Posted 02 February 2011 - 05:15 PM

I'll admit, I had to stare at this one for a little while...

We both agree that the original setup has 1712 hit rating.

My math shows the optimized setup as having 1726 hit rating on gear.

The optimization does the following with regards to spirit/hit:
Head: +121
Neck: +50
Back: -50
Chest: -87
Waist: +40
Feet: -10
Ring 1: -50

Net change of +14.


I think I see the problem. Here is the results pane that I see in my browser:

Posted Image

I take it the blank sections in green should have actual text in them?

This behavior is 100% reproducible for me in Internet Explorer, Mozilla Firefox, and Chrome.

#39 MatsT

MatsT

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 485 posts

Posted 02 February 2011 - 05:54 PM

Blank section in green means the optimizer thinks you should remove the current reforge on that slot.

#40 Yellowsix

Yellowsix

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 166 posts

Posted 02 February 2011 - 07:30 PM

MatsT is correct. Perhaps we should consider putting some text like "removed" to be more clear.

Several of the bugs found yesterday have been fixed, including the issue with using too many jewelcrafter gems. Here's a link to the full list of changes:

Change Log




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users