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Moonkin DPS Spreadsheet


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#41 Efejel

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Posted 25 May 2007 - 08:50 PM

Seems that whenever I try to use the Windscale Hood on the 'Gear Select' tab, it errors out and replaces all values with #N/A.

Thanks, I'm glad you like it. To fix this error (sorry about uploading the sheet with one!) go to "Insert"-->"Name"-->"Define", choose "Helm_Socks_Table" and change "='Helm Sockets'!$A$2:$P$38" to "='Helm Sockets'!$A$2:$P$40" (change the 38 --> 40).

#42 Dexter

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Posted 26 May 2007 - 12:23 AM

Sweet - thanks bunches!


-Dex

#43 Bertio

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Posted 30 May 2007 - 07:07 AM

I am basically using this spreadsheet as a stepping stone to switching my main from an SSC/Eye raiding warrior to a Balance druid, does that count as lavish praise? Please keep up the great work, and continue to stay in touch with the community in case blizzard decides to buff us into what we deserve to be, I want you to be the at the forefront.

#44 pluhi

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Posted 02 June 2007 - 08:16 AM

Great stuff, keep it up!
I have a question about Spellsurge implementaion. Can u add another weapon with it and calculate swapping every minute? Calculate with a few casts (lets say 4-6 in average) to get the proc, then swap back to nuker wep. Depends on spellsurge weapon ofc, but it lowers your DPS for sure. Ntm GCD on swap, lol.

#45 Nerfy

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Posted 03 June 2007 - 03:41 PM

Just noticing in the .68 version that for Inscription of the Orb it is listed as +13dmg when it should be +13crit.

#46 Efejel

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Posted 05 June 2007 - 03:44 AM

I am basically using this spreadsheet as a stepping stone to switching my main from an SSC/Eye raiding warrior to a Balance druid, does that count as lavish praise? Please keep up the great work, and continue to stay in touch with the community in case blizzard decides to buff us into what we deserve to be, I want you to be the at the forefront.

Wow, thanks. I'm sort of keeping up with things, even if maybe I shouldn't. LOL @ Eyonix posting about his moonkin. He started it, when, a year ago? I thought December, but check out this bluetracker: http://blue.cardplac...us/28355824.htm
Just now 62! Balance is clearly fine, L2P.

Great stuff, keep it up!
I have a question about Spellsurge implementaion. Can u add another weapon with it and calculate swapping every minute? Calculate with a few casts (lets say 4-6 in average) to get the proc, then swap back to nuker wep. Depends on spellsurge weapon ofc, but it lowers your DPS for sure. Ntm GCD on swap, lol.

The best approach would be to manually do a weighted average of the two weapons, and input it as a "custom" weapon. For instance, say I had a Gavel of Unearthed Secrets with Spellsurge (hey, I do!) and a Nathrezim Mindblade with +40 dmg (I wish...). If I used my Gavel ~25% and the Mindblade ~75%:

(18 * .75) + (16 * .25) = 17.5 int
(23 * .75) + (15 * .25) = 21.5 crit
((203 + 40) * .75) + (159 * .25) = 222 dmg
Avg weap: 17.5 int, 21.5 crit, 222 dmg

Just noticing in the .68 version that for Inscription of the Orb it is listed as +13dmg when it should be +13crit.

Good catch. To fix this, go to Format > Sheet > Unhide (Show in OOo calc), choose "Shoulder Enchants" (OK) and change the appropriate columns. (Will fix now so future versions have this correct, but not re-uploading for such a tiny fix!) Format > Sheet > Hide when you're finished.

#47 Guest_albertstoop_*

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Posted 05 June 2007 - 12:11 PM

I downloaded the sheet and it looks great! Thx

I put here below some things that is not correct or i would be please that you would add this.

Thalosar
______________________________________________________________________________________

First i am missing 1 ring that i am using:
Treebole's Hoop
+12 int
+12 spell critt
+15 dam/healing
5 mana /5sec

______________________________________________________________________________________

I put a other ring on the gear selection and with the "set bones" i corrected this.
Futher i put everything in good.

By the sheet it says that my (projected char sheets values unbuffed) mp5 is 110.

But i know in real it is much higher.

if i look at my profile in armor : http://armory.wow-eu...song&n=Thalosar

It says +256 mp5 out of combat and 121 in combat.

I am not sure if i am missing 11 mp5 or 146 mp5. i think there is something wrong with spirit -> mp5.

______________________________________________________________________________________

in your sheet my STARTING MANA is 8185 (unbuffed)
My maximum mana in real is 7805

on both sheets says int 381
_______________________________________________________________________________________

advice:
Put in "read me" sheet your name and where you find this sheet. (this forum). So if i send this sheet to someone else he knows where to find the sheet.

Can you also explain what "weapon swaps" sheet is for?
-Primary weapon can get the information from gear select

#48 Efejel

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Posted 06 June 2007 - 04:29 AM

First i am missing 1 ring that i am using: Treebole's Hoop

I didn't include too many green quality items, especially for jewelry. That's a pretty decent ring though, so I'll add it in for future versions.

To add your own items:
Format > Sheet > Unhide (Show in OOo calc)
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Select the sheet with the item you wish to add
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Insert a row SOMEWHERE IN THE MIDDLE (after the first item & before the last--this is to make sure it falls within the named regions used on the gear select page)
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Input the stats for the item
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If you wish, you can re-sort the items. Make sure you select all rows & columns -- if done correctly, the region name will show up just below the font ("Ring_Table" here). You want the column you're sorting by to be the "highlighted" column--here it's Column A, item name. Click the "AZ↓" button. Viola.
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If you add items with an associated "Socket" page, you'll need to add them there as well. A quick glance there should help you figure out what you need to do!

By the sheet it says that my (projected char sheets values unbuffed) mp5 is 110.
But i know in real it is much higher.
if i look at my profile in armor : http://armory.wow-eu...song&n=Thalosar
It says +256 mp5 out of combat and 121 in combat.

The value given on my sheet is your in-combat mp5 only. However, when I input your items (and enchants) I get 121 on the sheet.
Posted Image

in your sheet my STARTING MANA is 8185 (unbuffed)
My maximum mana in real is 7805
on both sheets says int 381

With MotW I'm seeing 8075 on Armory & 8470 on the sheet. Sorry, but this is a known error. If anyone can figure out what the fuck Blizzard is using to calculate our in game mana, I'd appreciate letting me in on the secret. For some reason our "base mana" of 2470 + (int * 15) doesn't work. But I'll be damned if I know any reason it should be anything else.

advice:
Put in "read me" sheet your name and where you find this sheet. (this forum). So if i send this sheet to someone else he knows where to find the sheet.

Can you also explain what "weapon swaps" sheet is for?
-Primary weapon can get the information from gear select

Good advice on the "Read Me" linking back to here & taking some credit. I'll be sure and do that.

Weapon Swaps is for those who use separate weapons at the start of the fight (a "high int" weapon) and for innervate. Originally I was going to calculate the actual DPS differences of the different weapons and calculate the appropriate penalties, but I ran out of momentum before accomplishing this. Now they're simply used for calculating the additional mana to start with, and the additional mana gained during self-innervates.
Posted Image

#49 Efejel

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Posted 07 June 2007 - 09:17 PM

Version 0.69

All "relevant" talents implemented (including HotW, SotF, Nat Perfection, LS)
Limited support for more mana restore effects (incl. T4 set bonus & IED meta gem)
--Updated Spellsurge handling (now as 1 PPM per enchant, should behave similarly to previous implementation)
Added Trinkets, Weapons, Off-hands to gear select page
--GEAR SELECT NOW "COMPLETE"
Improved "Read me"
Added space for "custom" items
Fixed reported errors

#50 Maax

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Posted 08 June 2007 - 03:08 AM

Any chance you could model the new Darkmoon cards? I just picked up crusade, and for now I am putting it in as a flat 80 damage but it would be cool to model it for real.

#51 Efejel

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Posted 08 June 2007 - 04:23 AM

Any chance you could model the new Darkmoon cards? I just picked up crusade, and for now I am putting it in as a flat 80 damage but it would be cool to model it for real.

That's a tough call. The sheet is designed around fixed terms & static equations. Definitely not the most accurate way to predict Balance DPS, but definitely the easiest. Incorporating the many dynamic elements of Balance DPS, especially trinkets like the Darkmoon cards, is best handled as average effects in this setup.

A far more accurate method of handling the whole project, and easily taking care of Darkmoon cards, NG procs, resists, Jow, Quag's Eye & spell-haste items, etc. etc. etc. would be a Monte Carlo simulation with simple deterministic rules. It would also be a fair amount of work, and right now there isn't a large enough community to justify the effort.

And of course no method is a replacement for some intelligence & real in-game experience. For now, you're going to have to rely on those more than anything when it comes to the Darkmoon cards. :) (Just remember your proc up-time is going to be fairly fight specific).

#52 Perinium

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Posted 08 June 2007 - 08:18 PM

Ef, I must say this is a very well put together spreadsheet that provides a ton of information. I am a big fan of using spreadsheets to calculate data, and this has probably been my favorite one to analyze.

On that note, I personally only play balance casually (when I respec to farm from time to time). I am primarily a resto druid and I know tons upon tons of information about resto in general. I was hoping, with your permission, I could take your sheet and try to expand on it to include resto as well. Either way I will be doing it for myself, but with your permission I would be willing to share my additional work with the community.

If the answer is yes, maybe I could get you on vent / aim sometime to tackle a couple of conditional formatting (i'm not good at making things pretty) questions I have.

#53 Efejel

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Posted 09 June 2007 - 02:07 AM

You're more than welcome to adapt the spreadsheet as you see fit. I'd be quite curious to see what results a resto spreadsheet would demonstrate. PM me your AIM info and I will get ahold of you to discuss formatting.

#54 dedmonwakeen

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Posted 09 June 2007 - 02:52 AM

A far more accurate method of handling the whole project, and easily taking care of Darkmoon cards, NG procs, resists, Jow, Quag's Eye & spell-haste items, etc. etc. etc. would be a Monte Carlo simulation with simple deterministic rules. It would also be a fair amount of work, and right now there isn't a large enough community to justify the effort.


I actually have a simulator that currently handles the five main caster dps classes.

Post is here: http://elitistjerks....ead.php?t=12782

I'm hoping some of the class experts might be willing to look over a portion of the implementation.

Here is the Druid code: http://wow-raid-sim....d.C?view=markup

#55 Efejel

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Posted 09 June 2007 - 05:14 PM

I actually have a simulator that currently handles the five main caster dps classes.

Post is here: http://elitistjerks....ead.php?t=12782

I'm hoping some of the class experts might be willing to look over a portion of the implementation.

Here is the Druid code: http://wow-raid-sim....d.C?view=markup

I actually saw that, shortly after posting what you quoted! I may look over the Druid code, but it should be fairly straightforward.

FF if not up.
IS if not up.
MF if not up (assuming mana permits).
Wrath until NG or other haste effect (if mana permits).
Starfire.

I was a little curious about equipping your test Druid with the class-specific Ashtongue (or whichever trinket it was) when Starfire was such a low priority. I'd think a couple other trinkets would be preferable--Eye of Mag, Quag's Eye, DC:Crusade, maybe even Icon.

#56 dedmonwakeen

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Posted 09 June 2007 - 05:54 PM

I was a little curious about equipping your test Druid with the class-specific Ashtongue (or whichever trinket it was) when Starfire was such a low priority. I'd think a couple other trinkets would be preferable--Eye of Mag, Quag's Eye, DC:Crusade, maybe even Icon.


Trinket choice for those examples was just this side of random..... .certainly not optimal.

I just wanted to show the range of possibilities........

#57 galzohar

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Posted 10 June 2007 - 07:58 PM

I gave the moonkin the int listed there with 1000 spell damage 35% crit and 70 hit rating and full dps consumeables, and took fight length short enough so mana isn't an issue, and got 1600 DPS... When I did the same thing for my mage with my gear (which is better than these values by quite a bit for fire damage) I was only gettgin 1300 DPS. So unless moonkins can outDPS fire mages and the moonkins I play with simply suck, or moonkins go oom extremely fast (although they do lose on short fights as well in my experience!), this sheet may as well have errors.
I'd look them up but I don't understand all those advanced excel commands ;p

As for threat, any DPS class that knows what he's doing will out-threat a decent tank if they don't have salv. However with salv giving a good tank a small lead makes it very hard to climb back up as your threat/second should be similar. Conclusion - take salv or your DPS WILL be capped by threat. Unless maybe it's an uber feral tank with over 1000 tps ;p
To compare my mage is over 600 tps with salv and 10% threat reduction talent and a raid buffed tank does 600-800 too. Without salv I'd be sitting there and watching the fight almost 1/2 the time...

#58 Efejel

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Posted 10 June 2007 - 10:12 PM

1000 spell damage 35% crit and 70 hit rating and full dps consumeables, and took fight length short enough so mana isn't an issue, and got 1600 DPS... When I did the same thing for my mage with my gear (which is better than these values by quite a bit for fire damage) I was only gettgin 1300 DPS. So unless moonkins can outDPS fire mages and the moonkins I play with simply suck, or moonkins go oom extremely fast ... will out-threat a decent tank if they don't have salv.

Hi. Welcome to "Balance Druids - Real Hard Facts" -- please enjoy your stay.

The discriminating traveler can learn more at: http://forums.worldo...&sid=1&pageNo=1

It may also interest you to know that a Moonkin in 5/5 Tier 6 + Naturewarden's Treads, Elunite Empowered Bracers, The Nexus Key, Sextant of Unstable Currents, Airman's Ribbon of Gallantry, Violet Signet of the Archmage, Ring of Recurrence, with epic gems & best enchants has about 24.3% crit, 134 hit rating, and 1115 dmg from gear/talents, and fully raid buffed can sustain 1260 DPS for over 6.5 min (excluding the two tier 6 set bonus effects, which will add up to ~5% more DPS).

It turns out, amazingly enough, making up arbitrary numbers for inputs produces arbitrary numbers for outputs! (#)

#59 nubb3y

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Posted 11 June 2007 - 09:01 AM

so whats the most dps anyone's managed to extract from this, with the best gear possible?

#60 Xantcha

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Posted 11 June 2007 - 12:45 PM

My guild is currently devoid of a dancing chicken, I want to remedy that.

So far for talent specs, I have some questions. The balance talent tree is very top heavy, very little filler talents and basically all look very great. I've come up with

http://www.wowhead.c...0rdicsguAZZxxcb

I have heard good things about Force of Nature as being viable mana effecient dps, but is it?
I would love to somehow pick up 5/5 Subtley, but the points just aren't there - and I presume that threat will not be too much of an issue because of my substandard gear.

Any, on the topic of gear, any advice? I'm looking to gear up with the best pre-raid gear, so I can prove that moonkin deserves a slot and gear upgrades.




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