Jump to content


Photo

Cataclysm Arcane Mage Compendium


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
433 replies to this topic

#41 tiandar

tiandar

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 2 posts

Posted 26 March 2011 - 12:16 AM

Ive went from fire to arcane since my guild is have been missing 3% damage buff lately and we are already heavy on range. So far, it isn't as bad as i expected to be it. We are 6/13 H and just started working on H conclave, here is my experience, Gear is is all 359 with 6-7 372's

-Halfus H: I pretty much tunneled Halfus from 100 to 0 once we burned the first drake. I got decent dps numbers (60k), considering the movement from the fire orbs that are launched.
-Magmaw heroic: Wasn't terrible, i managed 25k dps on a 9:30 kill and it could been much better. Used fireward on cooldown and saved burn phase for the exposed head
-ODS H: I was doing pretty good with the puddles and arcanatron buff, but died to anhilator half fight. Fire might be better here, with the kiting and all whats going on.
-Atremedes H: I managed 18k dps, it was pretty annoying with all the movement, Fire does much better here.
-Chimearon H: Excellent dps, especially if you can stand as close as possible to the stack point
-Maloriak H: Useless, Went fire to AOE the adds better since we stop at 30% like everyone
-Nefarian Normal: I did better than expected, i managed 21k dps maximising my cooldowns and interrupt

As for conclave, like fok said, i was last night on rohash and i was top damage on shield with Ab (4) - > PoM -> Ab (4). Improved blink is excellent to move between platforms, Mage ward gives a nice buff, especially when you time it on roash platform during windblast before jumping, and you will have it back again as soon the cd is back up on nezir.

Arcane isn't as bad as it look once you get good feeling of the fights timing with your guild strat. The 13% buff is going to be really strong if it stays. As for now, its totally viable for 25man raids to have 1 of their mages go arcane, especially if 3% buff is missing. Also 6% less damage taken and mage armor provides better survival that eases healers job

#42 fateswarm

fateswarm

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 56 posts

Posted 26 March 2011 - 11:36 AM

^ It appears there is one governing factor and a secondary governing factor. 1. Lack of need to be mobile, and 2. encounters with separate burst phases. The first appears to be necessary in all cases. Proof for that is Al'Akir. While by intuition one could think there is apportunity for high DPS due to the downtimes between phases - especially if one is dedicated on the ads of the 2nd phase - the result is weak since there is need for constant movement. Arcane blast is simply interrupted.

Ideally, the 'Arcane Encounter' is one that you are both stable in position and there is some downtime for all players to replenish mana. Usually one would need an encounter that whatever happens, it allows the player to stay stable in position even if that happens in portions. But big portions.

#43 Silverwind

Silverwind

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 67 posts

Posted 26 March 2011 - 11:45 AM

I've updated the BiS list that simcraft uses: chardev 8 - WoW Cataclysm

I think it's pretty close to optimum, but if someone can spot any errors or knows of a gearset that sims higher than this one, please let me know.

A note about the Reforging: Because Haste/Crit/Mastery are reasonably close together in value, I've opted to always reforge the highest rating on a Hit-less piece of gear to Hit to get as close to the cap as possible (currently missing 1.37%).

#44 Wuud

Wuud

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 2 posts

Posted 27 March 2011 - 02:21 AM

I said my reasons for playing arcane were silly, but there were also some real ones, I'm the only provider of the 3% damage buff for my 10, and I raid with a fire usually providing all of that jazz.

All the small movement in the Al'Akir fight you see coming so my spells never get interrupted, and small movements are fine. Arcane Barrage is a designed filler that keeps acceptable DPS levels, if every movement I make is on a barrage GCD I'm not losing any activity.

In my Magmaw description I explained there's someone else on the adds, as I said I raid with a fire mage in my regular 10s as well as 25, and the burn style of Arcane does more to kill Magmaw then any class could probably ending the fight a good 25 seconds sooner in 10, and no there's not frequent movement, I don't have to run from adds.

Cauterize is the best survivability talent, if you get killed a lot. As that does not happen often the reduction of raid damage in general (at least 10%) means it takes less from my healers to keep me full. I also note the design of Cauterize puts additional strain on the healers, granted they failed once at least to keep you alive but then they still have to heal you to full, and you may get hit by even more damage while your still taking burn from Cauterize.

In general the dangers of boss encounters are based on phases your trying to push through particularly fast, I have never in the history of WoW been on a boss that had challenging, progression stopping AOE requirements.

Just saw that other post, downtime actually skews for fire, evocation use has to be tied in timing to your CD'S or it won't
be available again after you use them, so you can't save evoke for a breather phase. your staying as close to 100% mana or pushing down to 20% as fast as possible then back at 100%, so a breather doesn't really provide anything.

#45 Lemina

Lemina

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 15 posts

Posted 27 March 2011 - 05:31 AM

Cauterize is the best survivability talent, if you get killed a lot. As that does not happen often the reduction of raid damage in general (at least 10%) means it takes less from my healers to keep me full.


Cauterize allows you to cheese certain boss mechanics, such as heroic 25 Valiona and Theralion's blackouts. Since you will inevitably run out of cooldowns for it and stacking with the raid would wipe everyone out, the person with blackout has to run out and die. Being fire, all you have to do is run out, "die" and activate cauterize and healers can heal you back to full, forgoing the need to battle res or have someone soulstone you. If you ever get 2 consecutive blackouts on you can even iceblock the 2nd, and no other spec in the game can do this.

As for AE requirements that are progression stopping, there's heroic maloriak, at least on 25s, you need the AE power in order to kill black sludges before the next phase.

#46 Silverwind

Silverwind

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 67 posts

Posted 27 March 2011 - 02:59 PM

Here's some research of the DPS benefits from Focus Magic for all specs. Created with simcraft on a standard patchwerk fight using 10k iterations and 4.0.6 data.

[table="head;sort=4d,2;autonumtitle=rank;width=60em "]Profile|DPS with FM|DPS without FM|DPS Difference
Priest_Shadow_T11_372|28003|27208|795
Mage_Fire_T11_372|26592|25821|771
Mage_Fire_Frostfire_T11_372|25151|24423|728
Mage_Arcane_T11_372|29110|28429|681
Warlock_AffDrain_T11_372|27196|26539|657
Warlock_Demonology_T11_372|27566|26914|652
Warlock_Destruction_T11_372|28200|27554|646
Warlock_Affliction_T11_372|27231|26601|630
Shaman_Elemental_T11_372|27063|26519|544
Druid_Balance_T11_372|26813|26325|488
Mage_Frost_Frostfire_T11_372|25304|24867|437
Mage_Frost_T11_372|25972|25623|349
Death_Knight_Unholy_1h_T11_372|23485|23264|221
Death_Knight_Unholy_2h_T11_372|26333|26107|226
Shaman_Enh_T11_372_Caster|26764|26570|194
Shaman_Enh_T11_372|26701|26510|191
Priest_Disc_Smite_T11_372|12376|12189|187
Rogue_Assassination_T11_372|27455|27280|175
Death_Knight_Frost_1h_T11_372|25781|25642|139
Priest_Holy_Smite_AA_T11_372|8817|8680|137
Death_Knight_Frost_2h_T11_372|25315|25230|85
Rogue_Combat_T11_372|26988|26904|84
Rogue_Subtlety_T11_372|26738|26683|55
Paladin_Retribution_T11_372|27522|27472|50


#47 kikokono

kikokono

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 1 posts

Posted 29 March 2011 - 04:15 PM

does the arcane line item take into account the trading of focus magic between 2 arcane mages?

Here's some research of the DPS benefits from Focus Magic for all specs.



#48 Silverwind

Silverwind

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 67 posts

Posted 30 March 2011 - 09:48 AM

does the arcane line item take into account the trading of focus magic between 2 arcane mages?


Yes, Arcane has by default a constant buff (focus_magic_feedback). All I did was to add the override.focus_magic=1 option, so the resulting report shows 2 constant buffs, focus_magic and focus_magic_feedback.

Now, one flaw the above simulations have, is that the chart just shows the personal dps gain for the various classes, while ignoring the fact that many classes cannot provide 100% uptime for the mage himself.

I might be able to create a RDPS chart that includes the feedback buff, but I'm not totally sure about the proc mechanic of FM. Does FM proc from periodical crits? Or just direct hits like it was back in WotLK?

#49 Elge

Elge

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 28 posts

Posted 30 March 2011 - 12:27 PM

Just tested with a Holy specced priest. Neither DoT nor HoT crits proc FM.

#50 Faxmonkey

Faxmonkey

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 107 posts

Posted 01 April 2011 - 01:43 AM

These new haste changes are going to make gearing for Arcane tricky . There's still another .2 seconds to be removed from the Arcane Blast cast time once the next PTR Patch is available, and yet already on PTR I'm sitting at 1.29 second Arcane Blasts without benefit of Wrath of Air or any temporary haste buffs. With Berserking, I dip below a 1 second cast time. While the reduction in mana cost to 5% base certainly helps the value of haste, these other changes significantly undermine it. While Haste has been of nearly the same value as Mastery on Live, I doubt this will continue once Arcane Blast easily becomes so close to the haste soft cap enforced by the GCD.

On live, since Fire sees similar benefits from haste/crit and Arcane sees similar benefits from haste/mastery, it's possible to focus on haste and not need to reforge anytime you swap specs. I think this next patch may force me to choose one spec or the other. Right now, Arcane seems to be a clear winner for single target DPS, but even with the latest Arcane changes, AoE will still lag behind fire (especially since fire has a mechanism for subverting the AoE cap and arcane does not).

There's going to be some tricky choices to make once the patch goes live. Long term, however, Arcane is probably going to be the winner. With the latest PTR reduction in mana costs, I'm able to sustain AB spam for a shockingly long period of time. As my intellect goes up, and my haste goes down, that period of time will lengthen and it won't be very many tiers of gear before it becomes sustainable nearly full time. I really feel like Blizzard is kind of floundering in its attempts to improve Arcane. Unless they're committed to readjusting it every single patch, its going to be hard to keep it balanced.

#51 doran

doran

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 2 posts

Posted 01 April 2011 - 09:42 AM

The mana reduction of Arcane Blast is on live for a long time now, it's only a tooltip fix with the new patch. So sorry to disappoint you a little, it's 5% base mana already not 7% :S

#52 Faxmonkey

Faxmonkey

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 107 posts

Posted 01 April 2011 - 10:30 PM

The mana reduction of Arcane Blast is on live for a long time now, it's only a tooltip fix with the new patch. So sorry to disappoint you a little, it's 5% base mana already not 7% :S


Ahh, I see. I had thought that the Arcane Blast mana reduction hotfix came before 4.06, so that the live tooltip was already correct. I guess they must have done more than one.

#53 Nerdling

Nerdling

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 26 posts

Posted 03 April 2011 - 07:03 AM

Something that got changed a while back and needs updating on the OP.

Nether Vortex 2/2 will now apply Slow to any target that is hit with AB. So even if the target is beyond the range of unglyphed Slow they will be Slowed if hit by AB with 2/2 Nether Vortex. With 1/2 Nether Vortex any target hit with AB will have a chance to have Slow applied to them. This can happen even if the target is beyond the unglyphed range of Slow.

However there is still a problem with Nether Vortex. Even though the first cast can apply Slow to the target there can be and usually is a slight delay between when the target appears to be hit and Slow is applied. This delay does seem to be affected by latency though I can't say that with 100% certainty, hopefully further testing will confirm it.

The problems with Mirror Images that I detailed in the original thread have been addressed but are not entirely fixed. The images will target the mob that the mage is hitting as they are conjured. The mob the images are hitting will always agro on the images and not the mage. The deferment of threat from the additional mobs that images are not not hitting can fail.

1. If you are closer to the additional mobs than your mirror images they can agro on you. They may start switching between hitting you and the image closest to them.

2. If you move away from the images while mobs are closer to you than some of the images they can agro on you.

3. If you hit one of the mobs the mirrors are not hitting it will agro on you once you exceed the images threat.

I'm currently using groups of mobs (3-4 leper Gnomes) in the Cursed Veil in Uldum to test and using omen/direct observation which is taking the threat info directly from the api. The above circumstances usually result in the deferment failing but sometimes it holds and I can't determine why.

Sorry for posting inconclusive results but after a fair bit of testing I'm hoping someone else might be able to figure out a conclusive set of circumstances under which the deferment fails.

Edit:

I checked with a couple of GM's recently having reported these issues a while back. They were aware of the above but had believed these issues had been addressed so I've added them into the bug thread.

Additionally I also asked again for confirmation of the intended behaviour of Invocation stating that it or the tooltip were bugged. I informed them that Invocation was only granting a bonus if the interruption was caused with Counterspell and no other interrupt effect such as the high powered bolt gun was causing the bonus to be gained. In addition that many effects cause the targets' cast bar to say interrupted and none of these worked either. I got the same reply as I have previously that they were unaware of the problem but that he would pass it on to the developers. I've added that also to the bug report thread.

Given that Rude Interruption grants a similar bonus that lasts longer and it's tooltip states it only works with Pummel and Shield Bash I hope it might very well be intended to grant us a bonus when we stop the target from casting through bombs, dazes and stuns. Has anyone been able to confirm that it is working as intended? If it is I hope they get around to changing the tooltip so that is worded in a similar manner to Rude Interruption.

#54 mrlazbyums

mrlazbyums

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 5 posts

Posted 12 April 2011 - 07:46 PM

I've been looking for some solid info on how much of a DPS gain IA is.

I did some real terrible napkin math with seeing how much of a DPS gain a mageward proc is for AB1.

I did: Non-IA DPS*10 vs IA DPS*8.5 and IA comes out about 6% ahead (with maximum uptime this would come out to 2% total damage increase which I feel is marginal considering the talent points and the additional rotation complexity) .


I'm assuming that with better modeling than basing it off of AB1 DPS the DPS gain would hopefully be larger? I know as of the last time I asked this question SimC was not able to model it so maybe the best way is to model it under different conditions (burn phase vs conserve phase) to get an idea of the effect of IA.

#55 Doroteasenjk

Doroteasenjk

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 117 posts

Posted 12 April 2011 - 08:25 PM

You pay for IA with a GCD and the mana cost. Since most discussions of IA dismiss this at first, and you didn't mention it, I thought I would bring it up. While Arcane doesn't have that many instants that can be used during movement, putting up a shield might qualify if the timing was appropriate.

Actually, IA benefit goes down as the base damage goes up. So IA would have substantially less contribution for AB4 than for AB1.

#56 mrlazbyums

mrlazbyums

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 5 posts

Posted 12 April 2011 - 08:48 PM

You pay for IA with a GCD and the mana cost. Since most discussions of IA dismiss this at first, and you didn't mention it, I thought I would bring it up. While Arcane doesn't have that many instants that can be used during movement, putting up a shield might qualify if the timing was appropriate.

Actually, IA benefit goes down as the base damage goes up. So IA would have substantially less contribution for AB4 than for AB1.


I didn't specifically mention the GCD but if you look at my calculations I used 8.5 instead of 10 of non-ia time since you lose the 1.5 to GCD. Though now that I rethink it 11.5 vs 10 would be a better calculation time frame. By changing the time frame accordingly my layman attempt at calculating increase DPS goes from 6% to 8.5% during that 10s time frame.

I see what you are saying about the base damage sounds logically though was wondering if anyone can confirm. I am unsure of all the properties of AB, does the coefficient change as you stack it? Additional what is the correct way to calculate AB damage, I was using DrDamage to calculate DPS and I see the spell coefficient but something doesn't add up for me.

#57 Kavan

Kavan

    Bald Bull

  • Members
  • 1,018 posts

Posted 12 April 2011 - 09:16 PM

Rawr supports mage ward modeling, although I haven't done any testing in game to verify spell coefficients on the absorb. The result I'm getting is that using Mage Ward is not a dps increase if it takes a gcd away from normal casting.

#58 mrlazbyums

mrlazbyums

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 5 posts

Posted 12 April 2011 - 11:20 PM

Rawr supports mage ward modeling, although I haven't done any testing in game to verify spell coefficients on the absorb. The result I'm getting is that using Mage Ward is not a dps increase if it takes a gcd away from normal casting.


In reference to what another poster said earlier is it true that IA Mage Ward has less benefit for higher stacked AB or will it give the same % increase for any AB?

Reason I ask is would it make a difference if we chose to only Mage Ward before a burn phase instead of during conserve phase?

#59 Kavan

Kavan

    Bald Bull

  • Members
  • 1,018 posts

Posted 13 April 2011 - 12:11 AM

Damage of AB will be of the form k * (base + coeff * spellpower) * (1 + 0.13 * stack), so the higher stack AB will have higher absolute increase, but same % increase (because all multipliers will cancel out since they're the same with or without IA).

Also Rawr considers using Mage Ward as part of its casting state in combination with cooldown stacking so it wouldn't be optimal regardless of where you use it.

#60 Kavan

Kavan

    Bald Bull

  • Members
  • 1,018 posts

Posted 13 April 2011 - 01:57 AM

So I did a little experiment. In my base gear my Mage Ward absorbs about 8840 damage for 2786 mana. To make it optimal to use Mage Ward the damage absorbed has to be increased to about 9400 damage or mana cost lowered to about 1900 mana or some combination of the two. In that case it starts being optimal to use the ward on the most stacked burn phases.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users