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Cataclysm Subtlety Compendium


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#501 Xyogan

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 07:43 PM

I've noticed a fair amount of combat rogues with and without the legendary gearing and reforging for hit, to get as close to the spell hit cap as possible. I was previously unaware that we were supposed to do this, and I'm wondering if the same holds true for Subtlety? Or does crit/haste just far outweigh spell hit enough to make it suboptimal?

#502 Elofax

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 02:10 PM

A fair amount of combat rogues have gear levels that naturally allow us to achieve spell hit cap even though our reforging focus continues to remain on hitting expertise cap while maximizing haste and minimizing crit; since spell hit is our third-best stat (above the uncapped stats of mastery and crit), it was inevitable as gear improved that at some point we would hit that cap as well.

Looking at Sub stat weights, I notice that spell hit for you is below both haste and crit, both of which are uncapped stats--meaning that on any piece of gear you couldn't forge into one, you would forge it into the other over hit. I would thus suspect that Sub will not be achieving the spell hit cap if it is reforging properly (the only way it would is if there was enough hit on your gear that you were unable to reforge off that you hit the spell cap that way).

#503 Sakuratei

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 03:52 PM

Crit does have a soft cap. At near BiS, Shadowcraft is suggesting me to cap spell hit due to having 44%+ innate crit making ambushes autocrit. It could partially be because of oranges set bonus being implemented as an agility value, partially because white hits increase the trigger rate of Shadows.

In the end, Sub will turn to hit when there's no way to reforge into more haste, you've capped expertise and you're at the crit soft cap. Hit is the next stat in line since there's only two stats left, and mastery is worse.

#504 Iroared

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 04:38 PM

Maybe its not the best place to ask, but does shadowcraft actually account for things like crit soft caps when calculating reforges? From my experience, it seems to use some weird weights because clicking the reforge button usually ends up like 50 dps lower than what I previously had (e.g. it reforges from expertise).

Also, ambush is less than 10% of our damage, so I don't think it would affect crit weight that much.

#505 Sakuratei

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 07:00 PM

The "Weird" weights come from the stat values lying somewhere between your current setup and suggested setup when you hit reforge. To clarify, your expertise capped reforge would be slightly better if you reforged a small amount of expertise into crit, so the value of expertise in that reforge is higher than expertise. When you hit reforge, it assumes crit is better than expertise for all the reforges possible, and you end up with an expertise minimal reforge which is lower DPS than your current one.

If you pick a specific piece and change it's reforge from expertise-centric to crit-centric manually you might see better results.

As for the crit cap, I don't see anything else that could explain the suggested stat priority change. I doubt that the given Agility value for oranges set bnous would surpass 74% innate crit to make backstab autocrit. Most of the hit value is probably coming from the chance to trigger Shadows.

#506 Pathal

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 07:16 PM

The Ambush soft cap (which Sub rogues have been past for awhile now) reduces the value of crit rating by roughly <5%, and I don't think it's the reason for the slightly wonky EP weights. Despite my thoughts earlier this tier, the returned EP weights still behave a little strange from time to time.

Manual reforges are the best bet if you're finding the reforger is acting weird, and I've found that they typically lead to exp > crit > hit.

#507 Drottinn

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 04:52 AM

When talking about critcaps etc. I would like your opinion on using this spec Talents & Glyphs - Game Guide - World of Warcraft wich is just something I picked up while on spine. I rarely went sub earlier, but now I am doing it more and liking the specc better and better. But with my current gear I reforge away almost all hit and still get over 8% with just 1 point in precision. I dont do these kin of maths you do, thats why Im asking. I know I use SD glyph, but I kinda like to use SD together with Tott and get 6 or 7 ambushes. But I guess thats another question.

#508 jAsOs

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 05:30 PM

Just curious, why do you have 2 points in serrated blades, seeing how you do not use rupture on tendons.

#509 Viper

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 06:01 PM

With the nerfs to tendon health, Amalgamation dps is actually relatively important in the fight. Don't need to be quite such a one-trick pony anymore. I think having Serrated Blades for the improved sustained damage is a good idea at this point.

#510 jAsOs

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 06:37 PM

I was thinking in terms of tendons damage.
There are posts on talent choices a few pages back which should help Drottin clarify his questions.
Generally, Serrated blade is for sustained amalgamation dps.
I agree with you Viper.

Having points in precision allows you to reforge your gear into expertise.
With almost bis gear and a similar build, i have around 22 expertise and 45+% crit.

Shadow Dance or Hemo Glyph depends on your raid comp. If you do not have a druid/warrior in your group, glyphing for Hemo increases the amount of damage you do.
Speaking in terms of spine, spending 1 GCD applying a bleed is better than manually applying rupture after gaining CPs.

Hope this helps.

#511 Drottinn

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 06:21 AM

Im sorry for misleading the question or not beeing clear enough. I thought of this specc as a specc to use on all fights compared to the one with 2 points in precision. This was not a question on spinefight. I just wanted to state that I found the specc when researching the spine a while back. What o I wanted opinion on, was if its a gain or not to use 1 point precision with increased evis instead of 2 points and do other reforgings. Jasos clearified some though. Thanks for answers all of you.

#512 Sarvius

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 07:02 AM

The value of hit increases noticeably upon acquiring the legendaries. That should factor into your calculation of their relative worths, and the result will almost definitely be that the listed 2/3 precision spec is ideal.

#513 Ezeze

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 11:38 PM

I was just wondering, and I'm not sure how well sims will calculate this, but:

I have no access to heroic Firelands gear. Is it still worth getting the 2-set from Dark Phoenix pieces availible from Justice (the pants and the gloves), even if they are the normal versions?

P.s. Just checked it in rawr, the calculations are off. Since it's stating that wearing the BiS option (heroic shoulders and gloves) is a DPS loss aswell.




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