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Unholy DPS | Back in Black [4.2.0]


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#1 Devodante

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Posted 16 March 2011 - 04:47 PM

You forgot to mention the glyphs for AoE purpose.

#2 Matron Heartless

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Posted 16 March 2011 - 05:16 PM

You forgot to mention the glyphs for AoE purpose.

Ah yes, thank you. I have made a revision to include them.

#3 Spuddelkopf

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Posted 16 March 2011 - 05:28 PM

Sounds like a good guide, thank you. I hope you will be able to maintain and update it frequently if there is something new.

About BiS lists, I don't think they are very useful as probably everyone able to aquire a complete set probably does not need the list anyway because they made their own calculations. And as a BiS list only makes sense if wearing the full set because the pieces influence each other, the rest does not need it either. ;)

Edit: Didn't someone else post a request for BiS lists? :confused: Or did I imagine that?

#4 Matron Heartless

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Posted 16 March 2011 - 06:08 PM

Sounds like a good guide, thank you. I hope you will be able to maintain and update it frequently if there is something new.


Thank you. I will endeavor to make updates in a very timely manner. Blizzard has had an itchy trigger finger when it comes to post-patch changes recently, but I will be sure to revise the guide if hot fixes significantly impact play and performance.

About BiS lists, I don't think they are very useful as probably everyone able to aquire a complete set probably does not need the list anyway because they made their own calculations. And as a BiS list only makes sense if wearing the full set because the pieces influence each other, the rest does not need it either. ;)

Edit: Didn't someone else post a request for BiS lists? :confused: Or did I imagine that?


Yes I saw that too, but perhaps they changed their mind and deleted the post.

I raises a good point though! I milled over the idea of BiS quite a bit myself. Some of the other classes here on EJ also point to outside tools and a few have separate threads dedicated completely to gear. I had reasoned similarly that a list on BiS Unholy gear would be painting with a wide brush. However, I am not at all opposed to providing a BiS listing should the request be voiced.

#5 phete

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Posted 16 March 2011 - 06:11 PM

Could you please state why you don't recommend using WoW Reforge's "optimize"-button and what's innacurate with it? (it's the only button available now btw)

Imo it always does a great job.

#6 Matron Heartless

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Posted 16 March 2011 - 06:46 PM

I like WowReforge but, on occasion, I experienced strange results. During the beginning of 4.0.6 it suggested with a particular gear set that I reforge away haste even though the hit cap was easily attainable through less severe methods. I couldn't say with certainty what other inconsistencies have been noted (I can only speak anecdotally), but I have seen screenshots where there were also a few suboptimal choices.

When I enter my current armory it does run great but I didn't want to encourage it so much that people would rely on it without question. Perhaps my wording is too harsh as I really do find this tool is valuable! I think I will amend my description to be cautionary but a little more complimentary.

It is my understanding that the best reforge can only really be determined by running every possible combination of gear and ranking the results by EP values. I don't think their website would be able to perform this task because of how CPU intensive that can be, so I run the optimizer to see the results and then manually check through it by using the +/- of values within the table.

#7 Machaera

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Posted 16 March 2011 - 06:48 PM

I think that it's best to stay away from putting points in Desecration, unless you have the specific intent and strategy of slowing some mob. In particular, this incidental slow is annoying on Cho'gall; If you get mind controlled, it will affect your allies, and has an annoying tendency to persist longer than their time spent in the area.
People in my guild have missed kicks on adds in that encounter because I was mind controlled and slowed them down.

I think a lot of people would benefit from a BiS list, perhaps by tier level as in previous threads.

And, slightly off topic, congratulations on having your own thread.

#8 Sykora

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Posted 16 March 2011 - 07:16 PM

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#9 Matron Heartless

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Posted 16 March 2011 - 07:18 PM

I think that it's best to stay away from putting points in Desecration, unless you have the specific intent and strategy of slowing some mob. In particular, this incidental slow is annoying on Cho'gall; If you get mind controlled, it will affect your allies, and has an annoying tendency to persist longer than their time spent in the area.
People in my guild have missed kicks on adds in that encounter because I was mind controlled and slowed them down.


Machaera, ah yes, I can see how that might happen. I like the snare for some of the add heavy fights, but I think a switch to Unholy Command in the recommended base spec is probably a good idea. I can still list Desecration amongst the alternatives with its pros/cons for anyone who would be interested (or isn't at Cho'gall). Thank you very much for bringing that up.

#10 Kortana

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Posted 17 March 2011 - 12:38 AM

Very nice post and thanks again for taking the time to work on this. I am also on board for a BIS list as well, I've always found it very helpful. Again, thank you Matron.

I've found Desecration to be annoying on several other fights like Omnitron defense. It does a great job of covering up Arcanotron's puddle.

#11 sp00n

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Posted 17 March 2011 - 11:24 AM

It is my understanding that the best reforge can only really be determined by running every possible combination of gear and ranking the results by EP values. I don't think their website would be able to perform this task because of how CPU intensive that can be, so I run the optimizer to see the results and then manually check through it by using the +/- of values within the table.


That's exactly what wowreforge.com does now that they have implemented a new algorithm (see post here on the Rogue forum). It should find the perfect reforge combination 100% of the time (given that the algorithm doesn't freak out).


In terms of BiS listing, at least an overview of trinkets would be in order I assume. Averaging out a proc isn't that hard to do, but a) some procs aren't that friendly to calculate and B) the averaged values don't necessarily match with the true benefit of one proc.

Stopped Playing


#12 Mericet

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Posted 17 March 2011 - 01:40 PM

Very nice post and thanks again for taking the time to work on this. I am also on board for a BIS list as well, I've always found it very helpful. Again, thank you Matron.

I've found Desecration to be annoying on several other fights like Omnitron defense. It does a great job of covering up Arcanotron's puddle.


It can also be frustrating during the black phase on heroic maloriak. Depending on your composition/strategy, the desecration can both keep the adds from moving as fast as you want and obscure the dark sludge.

Admittedly there's not really another option that even provides real utility, but not being able to turn it off along with lots of other people being able to use equally or more effective slows that can be applied at their discretion and without the ground effect mean unless you have a specific reason to pick it up, it's probably better to avoid.

#13 Matron Heartless

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Posted 17 March 2011 - 02:05 PM

I've found Desecration to be annoying on several other fights like Omnitron defense. It does a great job of covering up Arcanotron's puddle.


The current muddling of floor effects is a valid consideration too. Similarly, I came to the conclusion that Desecrate is acting as a double-edged sword during the Conclave of Wind fight as well. In one respect, the adds are staying closer together but it also means that they are harder to coax out of Soothing Breeze or move closer to the wind paths in preparation for platform changes.

I adjusted the base spec in the talent calculator yesterday evening to avoid assigning Desecrate by default.

That's exactly what wowreforge.com does now that they have implemented a new algorithm (see post here on the Rogue forum). It should find the perfect reforge combination 100% of the time (given that the algorithm doesn't freak out).


My other half happens to play a rogue and showed the original Perl reforging tool to me last month. I was totally pleased with how it operated given the confidence of watching it run every possible scenario. That's absolutely excellent that the site has adapted it to run online. Thanks for sharing that change, Sp00n.

In terms of BiS listing, at least an overview of trinkets would be in order I assume. Averaging out a proc isn't that hard to do, but a) some procs aren't that friendly to calculate and B) the averaged values don't necessarily match with the true benefit of one proc.


Absolutely. Given the requests, amending the guide for gearing (including the trinket calculations) is a high priority. I will invest time this weekend to begin organizing the material. Even if some of the items are not directly comparable or BiS on the individual level, there definitely appears to be a desire to see them for reference and evaluation purposes.

#14 Bobfred21

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Posted 17 March 2011 - 07:50 PM

Stat weights should probably be updated. I believe those stat weights were prior to the hotfixes which took place after 4.06 and at the very least I believe at higher gear levels expertise has overtaken mastery.

#15 Mhobius

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Posted 19 March 2011 - 12:57 AM

Nice guide idd, but I'd also add another macro to your list. Outbreak doesn't trigger your auto-attacks when casted, so this will kinda help:

#showtooltip Outbreak
/startattack
/cast Outbreak


#16 Matron Heartless

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Posted 19 March 2011 - 02:22 AM

Stat weights should probably be updated. I believe those stat weights were prior to the hotfixes which took place after 4.06 and at the very least I believe at higher gear levels expertise has overtaken mastery.


The stat weights were updated for 359 and 372 ilvls with the introduction of Dreadblade. It is my understanding that unless you are GCD capped, expertise would not be preferred over mastery as Unholy spec. A lot of folks in the 359+ bracket tend to sit halfway to the expertise soft cap (i.e. 13-17) with appreciable results.

Nice guide idd, but I'd also add another macro to your list. Outbreak doesn't trigger your auto-attacks when casted, so this will kinda help:

#showtooltip Outbreak
/startattack
/cast Outbreak


Yes, I definitely appreciate the ability to auto attack with my casts as well! I included a 'Revised Attacks' macro in the guide with a placeholder for whatever spells and strikes people care to use. It has some extra frills with it, but it should do the trick.

#17 lostboy1

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Posted 19 March 2011 - 08:53 PM

Why is Dark Succor now a new major Glyph choice?
More importantly. When should we use Death Strike correctly and effectively?
Is it simply for the healing value when we are nearly dead. or is it a viable dps boost too ?

Secondly Why Glyph of Path of Frost as A new minor Glyph option ?

Great refreshing new unholy DK guide for 4.0.6 Well Done.

#18 Bobfred21

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Posted 19 March 2011 - 09:23 PM

The stat weights were updated for 359 and 372 ilvls with the introduction of Dreadblade. It is my understanding that unless you are GCD capped, expertise would not be preferred over mastery as Unholy spec. A lot of folks in the 359+ bracket tend to sit halfway to the expertise soft cap (i.e. 13-17) with appreciable results.


These stat weights were updated after 4.06 but prior to the subsequent hot fixes which ended up shifting damage out of death coil and into our strikes (lowering the value of mastery and upping the damage of strikes).

When you start hitting around 2200 haste (easilly obtainable in 359) bad dodge rng becomes pretty noticeable.

Sadly, there's no sim I would trust at this point to give me accurate numbers so I can't back that up.

The reason most unholy DKs aren't at expertise cap is because until high levels of gear it is very difficult to do without sacrificing haste or hit rating.

#19 Matron Heartless

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Posted 19 March 2011 - 09:51 PM

Why is Dark Succor now a new major Glyph choice?
More importantly. When should we use Death Strike correctly and effectively?

Secondly Why Glyph of Path of Frost as A new minor Glyph option ?

Great refreshing new unholy DK guide for 4.0.6 Well Done.


The glyphs of Pestilence and Blood Boil are decent, but nothing outstanding. I recommend Dark Succor for fights where your survival is questionable. A good example of appropriate Death Strike use would be on Chimaeron during the recurring phase 1 (when Finkle's sprayer is active). 15% instant healing right after massacre helps both raid healing and preventing death via caustic slime. Death Striking outside of critical health needs would certainly be a DPS loss, but in matters of life and death, a temporary reduction is totally acceptable if it means your character is still kicking come Phase 3.

The minors I included are simply examples. If you prefer Horn of Winter, etc. then feel free to select what is most convenient to you.

#20 kaxkaja905

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Posted 20 March 2011 - 05:45 AM

was unsure,
do you only use SS or DnD when you have 2 unholy or 2 death runes or 1 of each or more up?




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