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Unholy DPS | Back in Black [4.2.0]


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#181 Netukka

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Posted 03 July 2011 - 12:29 PM

Does the new trinket value list take in to consideration the annoyance of actually getting the stacks for Apparatus due to Unholys abysmal crit rate or just a calculated value for being able to use it whenever its optimal?

#182 Basso

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Posted 03 July 2011 - 06:08 PM

Does the new trinket value list take in to consideration the annoyance of actually getting the stacks for Apparatus due to Unholys abysmal crit rate or just a calculated value for being able to use it whenever its optimal?


No and because of that it will be never a useful trinket for Unholy DK.

#183 Yellowsix

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Posted 04 July 2011 - 09:05 PM

We have updated the trinket estimates on Mr. Robot to reflect the usually low crit rate that DKs have (we used 8% raid-buffed in the simulator). You can see the results at Mr. Robot - Trinkets - World of Warcraft

For quick reference, we show the normal version of apparatus averaging to 306.04 mastery, crit, or haste (whichever is highest) over a fight: as per the description on our trinket page, this is an average using fight lengths from 4-8 minutes. (The trinket page lists mastery, but in the actual gear optimizer, we dynamically change that depending on your character's actual stats.)

Another crit-proc trinket that was adjusted was Vessel of Acceleration. The normal mode version averages to 279.21 crit rating over a fight for unholy.


These estimates are created using an actual simulator, and do indeed account for ramp-up time to build up the stacks on apparatus, variable fight lengths, etc. Please note that the trinket list on the gear optimizer is ranked independent of your character's gear and stats. Thus, it may be ranking the apparatus using a different proc than what you will actually get (e.g. if your actual character has a ton of haste and thus it procs haste, the ranking of the trinket would change -- we are working to improve our individual slot gear lists to include a character-specific ranking, but there are technical challenges to work out).

Most unholy DKs get a lot of haste: in that case, the apparatus becomes a good trinket according to most stat weights. We show it as BiS at the T12 level, despite the fact that it is triggered on crit.

#184 keLston

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Posted 05 July 2011 - 02:44 AM

While farming several dozen mobs, I can report that travel time now affects the application of Unholy Blight. I'm not the type qualified to say whether this affects dps any. Firing Death Coil from max range can delay the application of Unholy Blight by about 3 seconds, it doesn't appear to have any affect on the application of Runic Corruption or Shadow Infusion, however.

#185 Taiyoken

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Posted 05 July 2011 - 03:49 AM

This worked a long time ago. If you do it properly, you can Death Coil and then transform your ghoul so your ghoul will gain the str bonus.

#186 Raa

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Posted 06 July 2011 - 01:44 PM

I grabbed the Apparatus of Khaz'goroth last night, was curious to test it myself. It didn't seem to be a problem to stack it to 5 every 2 minutes. the initial 5 stacks came up when Rageface was at 50%. We kill rageface first, then burn Shannox to 40% then kill Riplimb then Shannox. Soon as I had 5 stacks I popped trinket then unholy frenzy and garg. There's no denying that the proc is amazing. It can be tricky to keep your stacks up on certain fights, but I can see this trinket being amazing on most fights. Especially with a rogue or hunter in the group giving you that extra 5% to crit.

#187 Gicks

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Posted 07 July 2011 - 03:45 AM

From what i can see Sky Strider Belt of the Faultline is still BiS compared to Cinch of the Flaming Ember. The stats just seem better and it is only a SMALL str difference.

#188 Guest_-highwind-_*

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Posted 14 July 2011 - 11:54 AM

Although there are currently no statsweights given this should be correct

[Normal-Mode Best in Slot]
[table="head"]Slot | Item | Gemming | Reforging |Enchant
Head | | 1x , 1x | None |
Neck | | None | Crit to Haste | None
Shoulders | | 1x | None |
Back | | None | Expertise to Mastery | +65 Crit
Chest | | | None | +20 All Stats
Wrists | | none | Crit to Mastery | +50 Strength
Hands | | 1x | Hit to Haste | +50 Strength
Waist | | 2x | Crit to Haste | None
Legs | | | Expertise to Mastery |
Feet | | 1x | Crit to Mastery | +50 Haste
Ring | | 1x | Expertise to Mastery | None
Ring | | 1x | Crit to Haste | None
Trinket | | None | Expertise to Haste | None
Trinket | | None | Hit to Haste | None
Main Hand | | 2 x | Crit to Haste | Rune of the Fallen Crusader
Relic | | 1x | Crit to Hit | None [/table]


An alternative is to switch the neck for (Crit to Haste) as well as the bracers for (Mastery to Haste). This nets in a very slightly EP decrease but changes two boss dropped items to two valorpoint-purchased items and also puts you nearer to the expertise cap (which might be usefull for people switching between unholy and 2h frost for different bosses or for people who generally prefer beeing expertise capped).
Draenei will just use to make up for their racial.

This list assumes that both, aswell as do not get the full use due to unholys low crit chance and were left out of comparison for that reason.

#189 Japi

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 02:53 PM

Hi, first of all excelent guides, thx for your hard work. Here comes my question, regarding expertice, the guide says that you need to reach the expertice cap, i wanted to know if this is correct and mr robot is wrong (because it reforges away expertice until 15 aprox and gives more priority to mastery also). Right now im hit capped (864+racial...just a bit too much i know), expertice at 21 (651), and the rest haste (2166) and mastery (1223), what do you think could be the best...stay that way or reforge away more expertice and gain some mastery/haste? Thanks in advance and sorry for my bad english.

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#190 Matron Heartless

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 06:56 PM

Actually, I would like to explain that the guide places little concern over the soft expertise cap. Expertise (pre-cap) is less valuable than the other relevant DPS stats except for crit (as below). That isn't to say that expertise is without value, but rather that it is of lower priority than most of its counterparts in regards to relative DPS gains.

As from the OP:

[TABLE]Stat Priority
Strength > Hit to Cap > Haste > Mastery > Expertise to Cap > Crit > Agility[/TABLE]

Expertise
At approximately 30.0272 rating per point, expertise is preferred over crit until you reach the 'soft cap' of 781 rating (i.e. 26 expertise).


When using Wow Reforge's site for Unholy, expertise is of little consequence but you will need to specify your hit rating for 'close to' 961 (or 841 Draenei).


To reiterate, when applying this information practically in an online tool, you would concern yourself with hit to cap and focus thereafter on haste and mastery.

#191 Guest_-highwind-_*

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Posted 21 July 2011 - 12:15 PM

Why is it important to get expertise soft cap for 2h frost but not as important for 2h unholy?

Thanks!


Mainly for the following reasons:

Unholys ghul is a solid part of the specs dps but doesnt gain anything from expertise (Ghuls "expertise" is determined via the DKs hit rating).
Unholys playstyle has quite "conceivable" free global cooldowns in which you could just "re-use" the strike that was dodged due to low expertise (Runes for dodged strikes arent used). So all you effectively lose are dodged auto-attacks.
Frosts rotation is overall tighter and more random. Dodged strikes can lead to short times where all runes are active (wasting "refreshing time") which is a defacto dps loss.
Also, FS can be dodged (and you do not regain the lost RP, I guess) while DC cannot.



I cannot help you with your trinket question but would assume Heart of Solace comes out ahead, especially when you gear improves.
Try to get License to Slay (Justice Points shouldnt be a problem) as well as Heart of Rage (BWD/Chimaeron can be pugged with the 4.2 nerfs to T11 content). It is a very solid combination for how easy it is to get.



How wrong am i? Does the STR difference on the T12 items worth it to lose the T11 4set bonus (3% AP)?


Depends on which Items you are actually replacing for what.
Doing the math on "Strenght/Ratings gained for higher ilvl" vs. "3% of total AP lost" isnt rocketscience, is it?

#192 Kiræl

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Posted 22 July 2011 - 08:49 PM

i've looked and didnt see anything, though i have possibly missed something.
Has their been any word on whether our t12 4p will double dip w/ the 8% magic damage boost.
i am also unsure as to how it works for SS, is it 2 seperate hits 6% of the physical and 6% of the shadow or one single application that is 6% of the total.

#193 Weider

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Posted 24 July 2011 - 07:07 PM

Hm good question. I tested it out just now:

Scourge Strike Count = 32
Scourge Strike Shadow Count = 32
Flaming Torment Count = 64


By the way has anyone got an idea if this would make Scourge strike > D&D? I know that D&D still can't be blocked or parried or missed but there's also a lot of movement involved in Firelands.

EDIT:

No. I just tested it.

Death and Decay 11 ticks = 20836 DMG
SS Shadow= 8463
SS=8216
Flaming Torment= 493+508=1001

So from 1 SS I did, 17680 DMG. D&D>SS damage wise

#194 Pyryte

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Posted 25 July 2011 - 08:44 PM

Hm good question. I tested it out just now:

Scourge Strike Count = 32
Scourge Strike Shadow Count = 32
Flaming Torment Count = 64


By the way has anyone got an idea if this would make Scourge strike > D&D? I know that D&D still can't be blocked or parried or missed but there's also a lot of movement involved in Firelands.

EDIT:

No. I just tested it.

Death and Decay 11 ticks = 20836 DMG
SS Shadow= 8463
SS=8216
Flaming Torment= 493+508=1001

So from 1 SS I did, 17680 DMG. D&D>SS damage wise


Thats assuming that the target you're attacking is in DnD for all 11 ticks. If each tick hits for ~ 1894, it would have to eat 10 or 11 of the ticks (1894 x 9 = 17046, 1894 x 10 = 18940, 1894 x 11 = 20834) in order to be better than a SS. So basically, if the boss has any movement whatsoever over the next 20 or so seconds, its better to SS. If the boss is stationary, its better to DnD.

#195 Roop

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Posted 26 July 2011 - 09:36 AM

Hm good question. I tested it out just now:

/snip

So from 1 SS I did, 17680 DMG. D&D>SS damage wise


Just for clarity, What combination of glyphs where used please?

#196 Weider

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 09:39 PM

Prime:
Scourge Strike
Death Coil
Raise Dead

But yes ofc you're right Pyryte. It pains me whenever a tank decides to just move a bit for no real reason. Just cuz he didn't like the spot, but otherwise wasn't a problem.

#197 Kiræl

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 11:21 PM

ok so it does in fact hit twice, now what about the double dipping with ebon plague. by that i mean something like this (not sure if double dipping is the correct term) ok our shadow damage portion of SS gets benefit from EbP which would boost the damage of that strike from our 4p. now does the hit from our 4p also gain benefit from EbP further increasing its damage? Given it is probably a miniscule amount but i still think it would be worth looking into.

---edit----
i have no current way to test this myself as i do not have my 4p yet and my computer hates sim programs for some reason (always freezes up when i try to run them)

#198 Charybdis

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 03:39 AM

ok so it does in fact hit twice, now what about the double dipping with ebon plague. by that i mean something like this (not sure if double dipping is the correct term) ok our shadow damage portion of SS gets benefit from EbP which would boost the damage of that strike from our 4p. now does the hit from our 4p also gain benefit from EbP further increasing its damage? Given it is probably a miniscule amount but i still think it would be worth looking into.

---edit----
i have no current way to test this myself as i do not have my 4p yet and my computer hates sim programs for some reason (always freezes up when i try to run them)


Miniscule is an apt description for how this would double dip. Ebon Plague as an extra 8%, and the 4p is essentially an extra 6%. 6% of 108% is 6.48%, which is given its own 8% extra for a total of 6.9984. Ebon Plague essentially adds 1% damage to the 4p, which will pretty much get lost in RNG.

Thus the easiest way to tell if it's double-dipping is seeing whether it's doing 7% instead of 6%. SimCraft's numbers show it's doing a straight-up 6% (12859 * .06 = 772 almost exactly), but it might be off due to just not testing whether it double-dips.




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