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[Resto] Raiding 4.1 - updating for 4.3


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#21 Fauh

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Posted 13 April 2011 - 11:28 AM

Great guide. The Glyph of Water Shield is linked incorrectly to Ghost Wolf, but very well written and informative.

I have followed the debate between haste and mastery very closely since the start and understand both sides from a 25 man aspect. In 10 mans however, crit has been an extremely important stat as well. In fact, through the final bosses of regular modes I found myself completely reforging to crit for the regen. I am curious how others have found crit holding up in HCs and what order you would place on crit, haste, and mastery from a strictly 10 man point of view?


Interestingly enough I found the case to be the exact opposite in our 10-man with me having the best mana-sustainability while lagging behind in throughput. We were at the time rolling with a Holy Priest, A Holy Paladin and I with all of us close to full 359 gear at the time with me behind farthest behind gearwise having recently switched from Enhancement.

Now I don't want to jump to conclusions but I think that the stat priority you go for will be greatly dependent on how you heal in your raid. Since we had a Holy Paladin he was doing most of the tankhealing with me keeping hots and earth shields up on the tanks while using mostly HW and the occasional CH and/or HR with some time to spend on regen via TC which lead me to prioritize things like mastery and haste. (Especially since we're just starting out hardmodes and mastery is godlike for fights like Halfus and Chimaeron HC)

However I imagine that if you spend alot of time casting HS and chaincasting GHW I imagine crit would prove to be a better route to go since you will likely need the extra regen.

TLDR: My assumption is that the secondary stats you go for will be determined by your own personal style of healing and/or your healer-role.

#22 Guest_Amilie_*

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Posted 13 April 2011 - 11:43 AM

Confirmed today. Healing Rain cancels as soon as Spiritwalker is cast.

That wording's a little vague and unnecessarily alarmist.

The bug is that if you have the HR targeting circle up, casting SG will cancel the targeting circle. However, using SG before casting HR, while casting it, or after it's been cast, will not affect it at all.

This happens even if you use a /cast !Healing Rain macro.

#23 grishaan

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Posted 13 April 2011 - 02:15 PM

That wording's a little vague and unnecessarily alarmist.

The bug is that if you have the HR targeting circle up, casting SG will cancel the targeting circle. However, using SG before casting HR, while casting it, or after it's been cast, will not affect it at all.

This happens even if you use a /cast !Healing Rain macro.


That's not what he is referring to. I think what he means is that if you're casting HR (the 1.x sec cast) and activate SWG while casting, the casting of your spell is interrupted. When you complete the cast and activate SWG afterwards the shiny effect stays on the ground and still heals. It's just about the interrupt of the actual cast of HR (which in contrast to chain heal for example becomes interrupted whenever you activate SWG).

#24 Guest_Amilie_*

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Posted 13 April 2011 - 03:24 PM

That's not what he is referring to. I think what he means is that if you're casting HR (the 1.x sec cast) and activate SWG while casting, the casting of your spell is interrupted. When you complete the cast and activate SWG afterwards the shiny effect stays on the ground and still heals. It's just about the interrupt of the actual cast of HR (which in contrast to chain heal for example becomes interrupted whenever you activate SWG).

I specifically tested all occurences mentioned in my post. The only time HR was cancelled was when I had the targeting circle up. Firing up SG while casting HR did not cancel it.

#25 SammyIamToday

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Posted 13 April 2011 - 11:33 PM

Great guide. The Glyph of Water Shield is linked incorrectly to Ghost Wolf, but very well written and informative.

I have followed the debate between haste and mastery very closely since the start and understand both sides from a 25 man aspect. In 10 mans however, crit has been an extremely important stat as well. In fact, through the final bosses of regular modes I found myself completely reforging to crit for the regen. I am curious how others have found crit holding up in HCs and what order you would place on crit, haste, and mastery from a strictly 10 man point of view?


I find myself almost exclusively stacking crit at this point. I'm at 21% crit before raid buffs. I'm just now starting to back out of it slightly and go for mastery. I have haste a little past the soft cap (easy for goblin) and that's where I've left it (reforging out of it when possible).

We're 4/13 with heroic 10m strict only. I tend to fill in as a jack of all trades type healer. We have a holy pally that focuses on tank healing and a resto druid that mostly focuses on raid healing while I fill in for both. I tend to top our meters with the least overhealing and the regen from crit is the only way I can stay with mana and do it so far. I must admit I haven't tried a mastery heavy build yet (waiting for 4.1) though. I also tend to get the druid's innervate on CD (we also have a feral druid that gives the pally his).

Once I finally got my 4pc T11 bonus, I seemed to be able to finally start backing off of crit for mastery and not go OOM every fight. My item level is still on the low side though at 355.2 (guildox).

#26 Migosha

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Posted 14 April 2011 - 03:28 PM

On the Glyph's topic, I'm using Earth Shield, EarthLiving (more interesing than Riptide in a 25 man raid) and Water Mastery. For people having the same kind of setup as me there may be a change with 4.1 according to the latest patch note :

Shaman :
* Earth Shield healing done by Restoration shaman has been reduced by 20%.
* Nature's Blessing has been improved to 6/12/18% bonus direct healing on Earth Shielded targets, up from 5/10/15%.

The first effect of those changes : the base effect of Earth Shield is reduced by 20% but the Heals on our EarthShield's wielder will be improved by 18% instead of 15. For Shamans who are on tank duty they should get a little up overall with those two changes. For Shamans who are mainly on raid duty, you'll get some lost on your healing done (Earth Shield is around 5-6% of our healing done, so no reason to worry too much).

The second effect those changes bring is that it may free the Earth Shield's Glyph from our "must use" Glyph list, making using Riptide, Water Mastery and EarthLiving a better choice, or at least an equivalent choice in term of throughput.

If I take our last raid as a basis : World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis. I'm Glyphed with Earth Shield and not with Riptide. You can consider my Earth Shield as having a 95-99% uptime.
* Total Earth Shield effective healing done : 2908360, meaning it would be 2908360/1.2 = 2423633 in 4.1. Meaning the Gylph's effect would be : 2423633-(2423633/1.2) = 403938 hp gain for the Glyph over the whole raid.
* Total Riptide's HoT effective healing done : 2115330. Let's assume the additionals ticks with the Glyph would have the same overhealing, we got 2115330*1.4-2115330 = 846132 hp gain for the Glyph over the whole raid.
I tested with 3 other Logs and got the same result : on the complete raid the Riptide's Glyph apport is nearly twice the Earth Shield's one.
Keep in mind that it's only raw maths on a few raid logs and please correct me if my calculations are totally wrong.


P.S : Thanks to Aanzeijar for accepting the task of managing this topic, Jessamy can be a difficult master to handle, be careful if you ever see him with a whip ;)

#27 Guest_Amilie_*

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Posted 14 April 2011 - 04:07 PM

First, the patch notes don't say a 20% nerf to ES's base heal. They say 20% nerf, period. This would imply a 20% nerf to the coefficient too, but since I'm not on the PTR, I can't test for sure. (And could very well be wrong here.)

But more importantly, you're making the incorrect glyph choice. You've got four usable Primes:

Earth Shield (throughput/efficiency)
Riptide (throughput/efficiency)
Earthliving Weapon (throughput)
Water Shield (Mana regen)

The first question you should be asking yourself isn't "do I want Earth Shield or something else?" -- it should always be "do I need the extra Mana regen from Water Shield at all?"

If you do need more Mana regen, then you should sacrifice the only throughput, non-efficiency glyph for Water Shield, which would be Earthliving Weapon: after all, you're trying to maximize your Mana, and the other two glyphs improve your efficiency. If you don't need the Mana regen, then by eliminating one you've automatically picked the other three.

(Caveat: in 10-mans, Earthliving Weapon tends to contribute a lot less to your overall healing. Using Water Shield in 10-mans makes more sense. But not in 25-mans, which was the topic it seemed.)

#28 CaseyTheRetard

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Posted 14 April 2011 - 04:43 PM

How can you classify Earth Shield and Riptide glyphs as contributing to efficiency, but not the Earthliving glyph? All three glyphs have the same effect, namely increasing the amount of healing output by the affected spell.

#29 Guest_Amilie_*

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Posted 14 April 2011 - 04:58 PM

How can you classify Earth Shield and Riptide glyphs as contributing to efficiency, but not the Earthliving glyph? All three glyphs have the same effect, namely increasing the amount of healing output by the affected spell.

I define efficiency as the amount of healing done per Mana spent. In the case of Earthliving Weapon, it doesn't save you Mana, because the effect doesn't cost Mana in the first place.

Of course you could be shaking your head right now, telling yourself, "But more healing on ELW means less healing to do with other spells!" And you'd be correct if a) you could pick ELW targets, and B) the glyph's effect wasn't so minimal on a target per target basis. That extra ~1K healing, in an absolute best-case 4.1 scenario where Mastery affects it, isn't going to stop you or anyone else from tossing another heal on the person anyway. In fact, looking at a few 10-man and 25-man logs for fights other than Chim, the overhealing for ELW tends to hover between 16% and 19%.

#30 Rhaegal

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Posted 14 April 2011 - 10:38 PM

If I take our last raid as a basis : World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis. I'm Glyphed with Earth Shield and not with Riptide. You can consider my Earth Shield as having a 95-99% uptime.
* Total Earth Shield effective healing done : 2908360, meaning it would be 2908360/1.2 = 2423633 in 4.1. Meaning the Gylph's effect would be : 2423633-(2423633/1.2) = 403938 hp gain for the Glyph over the whole raid.
* Total Riptide's HoT effective healing done : 2115330. Let's assume the additionals ticks with the Glyph would have the same overhealing, we got 2115330*1.4-2115330 = 846132 hp gain for the Glyph over the whole raid.
I tested with 3 other Logs and got the same result : on the complete raid the Riptide's Glyph apport is nearly twice the Earth Shield's one.
Keep in mind that it's only raw maths on a few raid logs and please correct me if my calculations are totally wrong.


In addition to Amilie's point (which really is the main thing to consider when choosing glyphs), by your own math, your Earth Shield glyph is currently increasing your healing done by 484727 over the whole raid, which would drop to 403938 in 4.1. Either way, the Riptide glyph is either nearly or just over double the potential healing done, again assuming equivalent overheal, in addition to allowing you to set up another potential target for bouncing improved Chain Heals during high raid damage phases. Even if for some reason you wanted to stick with the Water Shield glyph, your math doesn't support Earth Shield being a better choice than Riptide now, but not in 4.1.
Stand back! I'm going to try SCIENCE!

#31 maeklund86

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Posted 15 April 2011 - 07:55 AM

I'm not experienced enough to play around with numbers, but do not forget that mastery will start affecting Earth Shield too in 4.1, so we will not be seeing a straight 20% drop in the healing done by Earth Shield. Most likely the reduced base heal is to cover mastery affecting ES at lower healths. (Source)

#32 Migosha

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Posted 15 April 2011 - 10:17 AM

In addition to Amilie's point (which really is the main thing to consider when choosing glyphs), by your own math, your Earth Shield glyph is currently increasing your healing done by 484727 over the whole raid, which would drop to 403938 in 4.1. Either way, the Riptide glyph is either nearly or just over double the potential healing done, again assuming equivalent overheal, in addition to allowing you to set up another potential target for bouncing improved Chain Heals during high raid damage phases. Even if for some reason you wanted to stick with the Water Shield glyph, your math doesn't support Earth Shield being a better choice than Riptide now, but not in 4.1.


When I did those maths it was for the 4.1 changes, but if you read between the lines you should see that Riptide's Glyph is already above Earth Shield's Glyph, doing the same maths for the current version :
* Total Earth Shield effective healing done : 2908360. Meaning the Gylph's effect is : 2908360-(2908360/1.2) = 484726 hp gain.
* Total Riptide's HoT effective healing done : 2115330. Let's assume the additionals ticks with the Glyph would have the same overhealing, we got 2115330*1.4-2115330 = 846132 hp gain.
N.B : There is a problem with WoL : it count Hot's crits on the same column as direct heals crits (look at EarthLiving line to see what I mean). Meaning the amount of heal provided by Riptide's HoT is much higher than what I'm using here (the HoT's crit are merged with the direct heal's crits, so I'm only using the non-crit part of the HoT).

maeklund86 is right : with the changes on Mastery for 4.1 Earth Shield should have the same value it has now. In any case the result is the same : Riptide provides a better benefit than Earth Shield.

Of course if you never have mana troubles you don't have to think about that, your Glyph setup should be Riptide/Earth Shield/EarthLiving. But on progression fights it would be supprising. If you tell me that you aren't starved for mana while doing Al'Akir HM P2 then there is something strange.
Once again : those maths are done with my own logs, it may not be accurate for other people with different gameplay or raid setup (if you don't play Riptide a lot for exemple).

#33 Guest_Amilie_*

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Posted 15 April 2011 - 02:32 PM

Again -- the conflict shouldn't be between Earth Shield and Riptide, or Water Shield and Earth Shield. It should be between Water Shield and Earthliving Weapon. All those calculations you're providing us with completely miss the point.

Looking at your log linked above, your Earthliving Weapon (Viveterre in French) overhealed for 55.9% over the course of the night.

61.2% on Halfus.
52.7% on Magmaw.
67.9% on Omnitron.
61.7% on Maloriak.
3.7% on Chimaeron. (Mostly useless healing anyway.)
57.0% on Atramedes.
54.4% on Nefarian.

If we take out Chimaeron as an anomaly, your overhealing on the remaining fights for ELW was 59.15%. Given your healing style and healing assignments, it appears an extra 20% to Earthliving Weapon is not benefiting you very much.

#34 Aanzeijar

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 12:21 PM

I did some testing on the strange results of Healing Stream Totem. The following samples are taken in elemental spec, swapping gear around and using Earthliving Weapon, , Power Torrent and to temporarily boost my spell power. All observed values are the lower of the two, essentially rounding down.

Observed|Tooltip|Spell power
43 |39 |129
270 |265 |2870
305 |300 |3295
336 |332 |3675
358 |354 |3938
379 |375 |4193
418 |413 |4659
440 |435 |4927
468 |463 |5264
614 |610 |7034
617 |550 |7058*+
642 |638 |7371
678 |612 |7800*
704 |638 |8115*
731 |665 |8452*
801 |729 |9297*
849 |777 |9875*
916 |844 |10683*
964 |892 |11261*


All *-marked spell power values are with Earthliving Waepon. The tooltip matches the wowhead fomula:

28 + 0.0827 * $SP


but the observed values are off. Substracting 744 for 2/2 talented Earthliving Weapon and substracting the expected tooltip, the average rest is 4.51. Keeping in mind that all observed values are rouned down, I tried an offset of 5, which fits for all but one sample (+), which is off by one and might be an error on my side.

So the formula for the coefficient table should look like:

Healing Stream Totem expected:
(33 + 0.0827 * $healing_power) * (1 + 0.25 * $purification) * (1 + 0.25 * $soothing_rains) * (1 + 1.02 * $spark_of_life) * (1 + 1.05 * $target_spark_of_life)


Except that does produce wrong results. I tested with 7017 spell power (no Earthliving) and the predicted value would be 1401.79, the observed is 1233. That is exactly 1.1/1.25 of the expected value, which means: There was no Purification hotfix for Healing Stream Totem.

The tooltip value is even more off. I thought the tooltip should list 1.1 for Purification (old), 1.15 for Spark of Life (bugged) and 1.5 for Soothing Rains. The tooltip was so far off, that changing any one of these would not get to the right value. I had to respec and check every talent to get to the right formula:

Healing Stream Totem real:
(33 + 0.0827 * $healing_power) * (1 + 0.1 * $purification) * (1 + 0.25 * $soothing_rains) * (1 + 1.02 * $spark_of_life) * (1 + 1.05 * $target_spark_of_life)


Healing Stream Totem tooltip:
28 + (0.0827 * $spell_power) * (1 + 0.1 * $purification) * (1 + 0.25 * $soothing_rains)


Differences:
  • tooltip scales with spell power, spell with healing power
  • tooltip forgets to apply modifiers to the base heal, which is incorrect anyway
  • tooltip doesn't care about spark of life
  • both tooltip and spell work with 10% Purification

Edit: If you know what to look for, then it seems others have made that observation before me. Apologies if that was already known.

#35 crimsonsentinel

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 01:14 PM

I define efficiency as the amount of healing done per Mana spent. In the case of Earthliving Weapon, it doesn't save you Mana, because the effect doesn't cost Mana in the first place.

Of course you could be shaking your head right now, telling yourself, "But more healing on ELW means less healing to do with other spells!" And you'd be correct if a) you could pick ELW targets, and B) the glyph's effect wasn't so minimal on a target per target basis. That extra ~1K healing, in an absolute best-case 4.1 scenario where Mastery affects it, isn't going to stop you or anyone else from tossing another heal on the person anyway. In fact, looking at a few 10-man and 25-man logs for fights other than Chim, the overhealing for ELW tends to hover between 16% and 19%.


Are you saying if someone in your raid had a 5k health deficit, you or someone else in your raid would actively try to heal them (and by active I mean using non-smart or aoe zone heals)? Spell discipline is a significant part of your skill as a healer this expansion, and saying that the earthliving glyph provides little or no efficiency gains because you can't stand when someone isn't topped off means you need to readjust your priorities as a healer.

Obviously there are plenty of examples where earthliving overheals or contributes to raid overheal, but that doesn't make it nearly as bad as you make it seem, especially when it's usually the #3 highest source of throughput for resto shamans in 25 mans.

#36 Guest_Amilie_*

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 02:53 PM

Are you saying if someone in your raid had a 5k health deficit, you or someone else in your raid would actively try to heal them (and by active I mean using non-smart or aoe zone heals)? Spell discipline is a significant part of your skill as a healer this expansion, and saying that the earthliving glyph provides little or no efficiency gains because you can't stand when someone isn't topped off means you need to readjust your priorities as a healer.

Obviously there are plenty of examples where earthliving overheals or contributes to raid overheal, but that doesn't make it nearly as bad as you make it seem, especially when it's usually the #3 highest source of throughput for resto shamans in 25 mans.

If they were missing 5K? Of course not. If someone's missing 100K, though, because they just got hit by the boss's Random Secondary Target ability, then I'd heal them, and anyone else who's assigned to raid heal would toss them a quick heal too. In that context, if ELW procs, there are very, very good chances the ELW HoT will either a) overheal or B) not be needed to save the person's life. If it decides to proc.

But hell, you even admit it yourself: if someone's missing 5K, they're not in any danger of dying, and a smart heal (like a 4th CH bounce) is eventually going to top them up! So tell me again: what's the point of glyphing a spell that rarely saves a person's life, overheals like a mofo, and is dumber than a pile of very dumb rocks? The only reason is throughput.

Edit: Also, just looking at my most recent log, ELW overhealed for 39.1%, no glyph. Compare to the values I pointed out in my previous post above and draw your own conclusions.

#37 Jessamy

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Posted 18 April 2011 - 08:58 PM

I made a ranked list of trinkets. It includes blue trinkets from heroic dungeons, as well as trinkets with damage procs that really should go to dps before a healer. Trinkets that boost mana tide for other healers should be valued higher for healers raiding 25-player dungeons.

https://spreadsheets...uthkey=CI-0-uoP

I use slightly different stat weights than the ones in the guide at the beginning of this thread. I don't at all mean to imply that those are wrong and mine are right. Rather, this reinforces Aanzeijar's point. Stat weights for a healer should only be taken for what they are, a place to get you started. They'll be different for you depending on your personal gear, talents, and healing style.

With that said, the precise values and ranking are only a rough guide. Trinkets close together in value are just that -- close together in value. But this list lets me make broad judgment statements like "Tyrande's Doll is amazing," and "Heart of Ignacious is terrible."

edit:

Fixed the suggestions made so far.

Static spirit effects including reforging have been adjusted to account for increased personal benefit from mana tide. This still doesn't account for the benefit to 2 other healers in a 10-player raid, or 6 others in a 25-player raid. These benefits are impossible to quantify without some sort of judgment about the value of spirit to the healers in your raid.

Value for intellect increased to better account for BoK, mail specialization, and regen from increased mana pool, replenishment, and spirit regen.

Value for mp5 decreased to reflect a more accurate spirit conversion with current gear.


edit2:

Further adjustments to mp5 and intellect HEP based on Casey's arithmetic. Only very minor changes to ranking resulted from this change. I still am not providing a numeric value for mana tide regen for other healers. I can't see how that would be quantifiable, and I'm not sure it would even be useful. If your other healers need more mana to do their jobs, that's something to consider subjectively against personal benefits.


edit3:

I separated spirit into static and stacking stats that can affect mana tide, and procs that can't. Hopefully this change didn't introduce new errors.


edit4:

Added Tendrils of Burrowing Dark.



#38 serrif

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 03:41 AM

I made a ranked list of trinkets. It includes blue trinkets from heroic dungeons, as well as trinkets with damage procs that really should go to dps before a healer. Trinkets that boost mana tide for other healers should be valued higher for healers raiding 25-player dungeons.


Very nice! A couple notes:

  • For trinkets which affect mana tide, the weight of spirit should be increased by 36% (9% uptime * 400% increase in personal spirit) (if column D is 'Y', then multiply the term from the spirit column by 1.36).
  • It seems like either int is valued too low or spell power and crit are valued too high; converting Intellect with Gift/Kings into an equivalent spell power and crit rating and adding them would give 1.22 total stat weight from that point of intellect instead of the 1.2 weight which intellect actually has in that list [see CaseyTheRetard's post below for a better estimate of the value of int], and that ignores the effect of replenishment, mana pool, and the effect of intellect on spirit regeneration
  • is no longer the same 1926 proc as its regular version. It's now 2178 spirit, which averages out to 363 spirit instead of 321.
  • and its heroic version are significantly under-ranked (since the proc isn't reflected), but I'm not sure what the best way to represent them is (an additional mp5 from the on-use based on the lost spirit regeneration from 515 spirit from some reasonable intellect pool?)


#39 grishaan

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 09:34 AM

Heroic Jar should be more like 425 spirit (3/4 of 580 due to uptime) + 302.5 Mp5 (7260 Mana every 2min on average) which totals to 927 "stat points" and brings the trinket to the third place on your list while still completely ignoring the Mana Tide buff it provides to your raid (580spirit *4=2320 spirit for 16.8sec every 180sec which means an additional 216.5spirit for every healer in your raid).

#40 CaseyTheRetard

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 02:30 PM

At 85, 1 Spirit provides 0.0083625 * SQRT(Intellect) MP5 while in combat. Your MP5/Spirit ratio of 1.7/0.9 = 1.889 would suggest a raid-buffed intellect of (1/(1.889*0.0083625))^2 = 4007, which seems quite low. I would suggest something closer to 5000 Intellect, resulting in an MP5 valuation of 0.9/(0.0083625*SQRT(5000)) = 1.522.

1 Intellect on gear provides 1.05*1.05 = 1.1025 Intellect raid-buffed. That translates into:
  • 1.1025 spellpower
  • 1.1025/648.91*179.28 = 0.305 crit rating
  • 1.1025*15*5/fight_length MP5 from up-front mana
  • 1.1025*15*0.5% MP5 from Replenishment
  • 0.0083625*Spirit*[SQRT(Intellect+1.1025)-SQRT(Intellect)] MP5 from spirit-based regen
I come up with a value of 1.894 for Intellect using your values for SP and crit, my value for MP5, and assuming a 10 minute fight and 2750 Spirit.

It might be better to split spirit into 2 columns: MTT Spirit, and non-MTT. This allows you to better model the JAR: one should be dropping Mana Tide with the jar fully stacked (5-stacks worth of "MTT Spirit") and popping the use effect outside of Mana Tide (3/4 of 5 stacks worth of "non-MTT"). Heck, you could even separate weights for "Personal Spirit" and "Other Raiders Spirit" so people could tailor the numbers to their personal raid: value the item as <Personal Spirit Weight>*(<non-MTT Spirit>+<MTT Spirit>*<MTT uptime>) + <Other Raiders Spirit>*<MTT Spirit>*<MTT uptime>).

Something like this.




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