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[Resto] Raiding 4.1 - updating for 4.3


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#41 CaseyTheRetard

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Posted 20 April 2011 - 08:03 PM

I still am not providing a numeric value for mana tide regen for other healers. I can't see how that would be quantifiable, and I'm not sure it would even be useful. If your other healers need more mana to do their jobs, that's something to consider subjectively against personal benefits.


You have a value on your sheet for personal spirit. That presence would indicate that (a) you saw how it was quantifiable, and (B) you thought that quantifying it was useful. If every other healer in your raid did the same, you would have a reasonable estimate for the value of MTT spirit to your raid. It's not a simple problem, but it's far from being intractable. Certainly we need not throw our hands in the air by claiming the issue is "subjective."

At the very least, it's useful in a tool of this nature to have a knob to turn to see how varying the raid's value for spirit affects the relative ordering of the trinkets. While one may not agree with my approximation of "each other raid healer values spirit the same as I do", which is certainly fair since I'm not sure I agree with it myself, I think you would likely agree with my tool's placement of DMC:T and Mandala above e.g. Tyrande's Favorite Doll for 25-man raids.

The power of MTT in raids is in its ability to provide mana to other healers, certainly that factor is more significant and therefore more deserving of examination than simply quantifying the self-return.

#42 SammyIamToday

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Posted 20 April 2011 - 11:26 PM

In the guide it recommends the Int Flask and Int Food for consumables. Granted, the guide also recommends some other things that don't necessary work with my play style (and specifically 10 man HC raiding), but I'd like to get some clarification from other shamans on which consumables they are using and why.

Until this point I've been using the spirit food/flask to help with mana problems. After looking at World of Logs parses, I've changed my glyphs up some (dropping ELW for WS because my EL was doing major overhealing - Big thanks to Amilie for opening my eyes up to check on that), so that should help some with my mana problems. However, I'm not sure if I should be looking towards the INT based consumables.

Is there a reason the int food/flask is recommended over the spirit? I've seen some references to int helping regen by providing a bigger pool, but haven't been able to find a straight forward math explanation on the subject. I did some searching in the old thread (and this one) that referenced people using the spirit consumables for MTT, but no real arguments on spirit vs int consumables.

Is there a really glaring reason I've yet to find on why I should be using the Int flask/food over spirit? Granted, maybe I'm looking into something that makes little difference, but I like min/maxing where possible, especially if one method is clearly superior to another.

#43 Guest_Amilie_*

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Posted 21 April 2011 - 02:42 AM

Well, for one, in terms of pure stat points, Int consumables give 5% more stats than Spirit ones due to Mail Specialization -- at least Draconic Mind does, I haven't checked Severed Sagefish Head. So unless you're raiding in a world where Spirit is worth more than Int, you should always get Int buffs.

But beyond that: you always gear, gem, and enchant for Int over Spirit. Why wouldn't your consumables follow the same philosophy? Why are you using Power Torrent on your weapon instead of Heartsong, if you're vacillating between Int and Spirit consumables? It's not like they follow special rules. They're just a bag o' stats like gems or enchants.

#44 Amiral

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Posted 21 April 2011 - 07:02 AM

I tested this last reset, and again today:

Premices: 7422 healing power, 6633 spellpower, target on the patrolling guard outside blacksmithing/mining huts in Valley of Honor.
Riptide HoT ("unbuffed"): 1724-1725 (1983-1984 with ES)
Riptide HoT (Unleash Earthliving): 2000-2001 (2300-2301 with ES)
Riptide HoT (Focused Insight): 2138-2139 (2459-2460 with ES)
Riptide HoT (UE+FI): 2414-2415 (2776-2777 with ES)

Focused Insight works with both the direct heal and the Riptide HoT. If anyone else would care to test this too it'd be awesome (I am unfortunately not good enough at WoL to dig there).

#45 Aanzeijar

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Posted 21 April 2011 - 10:28 AM

I tested this last reset, and again today:

Premices: 7422 healing power, 6633 spellpower, target on the patrolling guard outside blacksmithing/mining huts in Valley of Honor.
Riptide HoT ("unbuffed"): 1724-1725 (1983-1984 with ES)
Riptide HoT (Unleash Earthliving): 2000-2001 (2300-2301 with ES)
Riptide HoT (Focused Insight): 2138-2139 (2459-2460 with ES)
Riptide HoT (UE+FI): 2414-2415 (2776-2777 with ES)

Focused Insight works with both the direct heal and the Riptide HoT. If anyone else would care to test this too it'd be awesome (I am unfortunately not good enough at WoL to dig there).


I've got similar results. Why does Unleash Life buff Riptide only by 16%? Why does Focused Insight buff Riptide only by 24%? And why is the combined buff 40%? Earth Shield buffs correctly by 15%.

#46 Guest_Amilie_*

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Posted 21 April 2011 - 11:45 AM

I also got similar results. For some reason, Unleash Life increases the Riptide direct heal by 24% while the HoT is increased by 16%. And it's not the glyph causing this, I tested both with and without. I've got to go to work now, but I wonder what the results are with and without Elemental Weapons too.

#47 Malefà cent

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Posted 21 April 2011 - 08:31 PM

In the guide it recommends the Int Flask and Int Food for consumables. Granted, the guide also recommends some other things that don't necessary work with my play style (and specifically 10 man HC raiding), but I'd like to get some clarification from other shamans on which consumables they are using and why.

Until this point I've been using the spirit food/flask to help with mana problems. After looking at World of Logs parses, I've changed my glyphs up some (dropping ELW for WS because my EL was doing major overhealing - Big thanks to Amilie for opening my eyes up to check on that), so that should help some with my mana problems. However, I'm not sure if I should be looking towards the INT based consumables.

Is there a reason the int food/flask is recommended over the spirit? I've seen some references to int helping regen by providing a bigger pool, but haven't been able to find a straight forward math explanation on the subject. I did some searching in the old thread (and this one) that referenced people using the spirit consumables for MTT, but no real arguments on spirit vs int consumables.

Is there a really glaring reason I've yet to find on why I should be using the Int flask/food over spirit? Granted, maybe I'm looking into something that makes little difference, but I like min/maxing where possible, especially if one method is clearly superior to another.


As in all things there is no hard and fast rule here, the maths say to go with Int, however this does not account for what is actually happening in raids. It is not helpful to have a huge base of intellect, if you have run out of Mana with which to utilise it. It is for all of us a balancing act I am afraid and there is no hard and fast rule. My personal preference is to get as much Spirit as possible as this obviously helps both myself and the raid via MTT. its simply going to e trial and error, try it with Int consumables, if this does not work then go back to Spirit. Of course I dont think that Cauldrons give you spirit flasks, meaning you will have to buy your own.

Onto this Focused Insight topic, I am quite interested in this as I have been noticing more and more downtime in fight where there are opportunities to cast something else other than a Heal, up till now I have been casting LB's for the TC returns. I am giving some thought to going down the FI route, the most obvious thing to drop would be AA, AA is a terrible talent for 3 points.

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

From this evenings Cho'gall kill, it only produced 80k Healing - 1.2% total healing

Looking back through other raids I can also see similar numbers, hovering between 1-3%.

The question is, is it worth dropping AA for FI to see if this work or not?

Going to give it some thought and will perhaps try it next farm raid. Has anyone been able to confirm if FI works on the full duration of HR yet (on PTR) remember reading that it does if you cast no other healing spells while it is up, which of course is not viable.

#48 Stopokingme

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Posted 22 April 2011 - 05:17 PM

I wouldn't call AA a horrible talent, it just depends on your healing methods, in your case, with the majority of your healing coming from sources that can't proc it that's indeed the case. In situations where you do more single target healing AA provides quite a bit of benefit.
Enchantment?

#49 Aanzeijar

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Posted 24 April 2011 - 10:20 AM

My personal preference is to get as much Spirit as possible as this obviously helps both myself and the raid via MTT. its simply going to e trial and error, try it with Int consumables, if this does not work then go back to Spirit. Of course I dont think that Cauldrons give you spirit flasks, meaning you will have to buy your own.

[...]

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis


In your 25mans logs your uptime of the T11 4pc bonus is rather low compared to my 10mans logs. This makes sense as you are mostly spamming chain heal and healing rain. On most fights you are between 35-45%, Valiona being the exception with 52%. On my logs (assigned tank/snipe healer on 10mans) I'm around 40-65% uptime. This is both far lower than I would have expected the 4pc bonus to be. I never checked because even with low uptime the spirit for free is strong.

But having for example only 37% on your Magmaw kill puts the 4pc bonus below 200 spirit, and with a completely worthless 2pc bonus, you're almost better off putting on 4pc elemental for 10% faster TC regeneration. In the same fight you cast 24 lightning bolts for 170k mana return. 33.4k mana to cast those bolts nets you 5680 mana per cast. Getting 10% more of those are 2.4 casts, netting another 13600 mana over 5:55 or 200 mp5, which at your level is about 300 spirit.

Granted, this is without calculating in mana tide, ignores that only one elemental piece has spirit, and it only works for extreme fights like Magmaw, but it is still somewhat disturbing.

#50 Kamileon

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Posted 24 April 2011 - 08:26 PM

  • only at certain breakpoints. See Haste section for these
  • currently bugged, affects Healing Rain, but only as long as the buff is present. Will be consumed by the next healing spell. Will be fixed in 4.1. TotemForest did some PTR tests. According to those, HST is not affected, Riptide hot, Earthliving and Earth Shield are.
  • announced to affect everything in 4.1 (needs testing)


Didn't see this specifically addressed...
When I tested on PTR, Mastery was not affecting HST, but has been changed since. Stand in the Blue Circle did a more recent test showing the effects of Mastery on HST. I haven't hopped back on the PTR lately to verify that it's still in place.

#51 Malefà cent

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 09:13 AM

In your 25mans logs your uptime of the T11 4pc bonus is rather low compared to my 10mans logs. This makes sense as you are mostly spamming chain heal and healing rain. On most fights you are between 35-45%, Valiona being the exception with 52%. On my logs (assigned tank/snipe healer on 10mans) I'm around 40-65% uptime. This is both far lower than I would have expected the 4pc bonus to be. I never checked because even with low uptime the spirit for free is strong.

But having for example only 37% on your Magmaw kill puts the 4pc bonus below 200 spirit, and with a completely worthless 2pc bonus, you're almost better off putting on 4pc elemental for 10% faster TC regeneration. In the same fight you cast 24 lightning bolts for 170k mana return. 33.4k mana to cast those bolts nets you 5680 mana per cast. Getting 10% more of those are 2.4 casts, netting another 13600 mana over 5:55 or 200 mp5, which at your level is about 300 spirit.

Granted, this is without calculating in mana tide, ignores that only one elemental piece has spirit, and it only works for extreme fights like Magmaw, but it is still somewhat disturbing.


This is a very good point, and I too have not been checking this previously, I think because the 540spirit is added to the MTT it makes it a requirement to have, even if the uptime is lower than ideal, what it does say is perhaps RT needs to be cast more on CD than it currently is. I shall monitor this more closly in future raids!

In regards to your idea about the Mana Regen on Magmaw, while it is correct in its Math in practice its not so ideal. For example, you simply don't need more mana in this fight, as long as you hit with your LB's (as EP spec here I tend to always hit) I always max my mana each Head phase easily.

As stated above, while the "mathematical" optimum ideal would be to use your suggestion, in a raid situation this would probably result in a net rHPS loss as other healers would not be benefiting from the extra 2000+ spirit your 4set proc brings on a MTT drop.

I will be watching this though as its a excellent way of see RT casts on CD since its 6secs long also, good catch!

#52 Malefà cent

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 09:37 AM

Didn't see this specifically addressed...
When I tested on PTR, Mastery was not affecting HST, but has been changed since. Stand in the Blue Circle did a more recent test showing the effects of Mastery on HST. I haven't hopped back on the PTR lately to verify that it's still in place.


This is going to be so incredibly wonderful its beyond measure, currently I have +57%, and while this may contribute to more OH by ELW, RT HOT and HST it will also increase overall healing by a chunk.

If people can confirm when this goes live if it is indeed affecting these it would be appreciated by all, to aid this I have completely removed all buffs and right now (prior to 4.1) the following spells heal for the following:

RT Hot - 1982
ELW - 1856
HST - 1299
ES - 5754

These were all the non crits ofc

I will edit this post in the morning tomorrow after the patch to see if Mastery is indeed having an affect on these spells.

#53 Bashface

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 01:00 PM

Quote: Totemic Reach Optional If you find your totems are often just out of range of the raid members, this talent could help; then again, why not just learn to place your totems better?

In the large battle areas in the Cata raid fights, is it possible the value of being able to cover a larger area with both steady heals and elemental resistance (assuming glyph of healing stream totem) is being overlooked? Area of unreached totems is 900pi, with one point 1156pi, and fully reached 1521pi. 30 yd radius is enough in small fights like Omnitron, but what about the larger platforms. It also increases the range of the other buff totems and gives the raid more room in which to work.

#54 Guest_Amilie_*

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 01:56 PM

Quote: Totemic Reach Optional If you find your totems are often just out of range of the raid members, this talent could help; then again, why not just learn to place your totems better?

In the large battle areas in the Cata raid fights, is it possible the value of being able to cover a larger area with both steady heals and elemental resistance (assuming glyph of healing stream totem) is being overlooked? Area of unreached totems is 900pi, with one point 1156pi, and fully reached 1521pi. 30 yd radius is enough in small fights like Omnitron, but what about the larger platforms. It also increases the range of the other buff totems and gives the raid more room in which to work.

The talent is not overlooked. You've just outlined the pros of the talent very well. (Although 30% more range means a 69% larger coverage area -- something most people do overlook.)

The cons are that going 2/2 Totemic Reach gimps you since you can't get EP, and if you want to grab Ancestral Swiftness too then you can only get 1/3 Acuity. So again, just like the guide says, the talent is optional, i.e. something you can consider based on your playstyle and personal skill at placing totems and remembering to re-place them after moving.

#55 Relevations

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 06:05 PM

[Glyph of Healing Wave] Optional Very valuable early on, but diminishes on heroic encounters, where you will be casting fewer and fewer Healing Waves. Also note that druids don't like it if you heal yourself over 50% on Chimaeron.

[Glyph of Stoneclaw Totem] Optional Valuable if you want to shield yourself from a predictable burst and very mana efficient unless you have to recast another Earth


Stoneclaw totem glyph should be classified as recommended - not just "optional - on the same level as healing wave". I see way too many new shamans choosing the Healing Wave glyph over SCT. Even ones progressing on heroics!

It's a brilliant and excellent personal CD - efficiently extending your hp bar by 16000 hitpoints - extremely good on electrocutes (nef) and quakes (AC - if you happen to be in a position where you missed the Wind/Grounded buff). The healing wave glyph is mediocre at best,- the 1-2k ticks every 10 seconds will never help you survive anything. I know a lot of new (and experienced alike) shamans read this forum, and it would be nice if they got a clue as to how good the SCT glyph really is.

Glyph of SCT is invaluable.

#56 Guest_Amilie_*

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 06:33 PM

Stoneclaw totem glyph should be classified as recommended - not just "optional - on the same level as healing wave". I see way too many new shamans choosing the Healing Wave glyph over SCT. Even ones progressing on heroics!

It's a brilliant and excellent personal CD - efficiently extending your hp bar by 16000 hitpoints - extremely good on electrocutes (nef) and quakes (AC - if you happen to be in a position where you missed the Wind/Grounded buff). The healing wave glyph is mediocre at best,- the 1-2k ticks every 10 seconds will never help you survive anything. I know a lot of new (and experienced alike) shamans read this forum, and it would be nice if they got a clue as to how good the SCT glyph really is.

Glyph of SCT is invaluable.

Granted, the HW glyph isn't amazing. You only tend to use HW when there's little damage flying around... which means you probably don't need a tiny self-heal at that point in time either. On the other hand, it requires zero management on the Shaman's part, and it's not like free healing has ever hurt anyone.

By comparison, the SCT glyph requires a lot more management. It presupposes you're familiar enough with the encounter to know when to drop it -- which new Shamans won't. It also requires a GCD, stopping you from healing, and destroys your current Earth Totem, which in the best-case scenario has no impact on your raid... but in the worst-case scenario decreases the Armor of your tank(s) by 4075.

Saying glyph of SCT has a larger impact than glyph of HW is correct. Saying it's for everyone, especially for new Shamans, is not.

#57 Aanzeijar

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 07:17 PM

It's not a question of skill. It's more a question of 10mans vs. 25mans. Spending 1 GCD for the shield is really efficient, but 2 (for setting stoneskin again) is not.

Edit: But he is right, optional is a bit low rated. Recommended is more akin to what the glyph represents.

#58 Relevations

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 09:16 PM

Granted, the HW glyph isn't amazing. You only tend to use HW when there's little damage flying around... which means you probably don't need a tiny self-heal at that point in time either. On the other hand, it requires zero management on the Shaman's part, and it's not like free healing has ever hurt anyone.

By comparison, the SCT glyph requires a lot more management. It presupposes you're familiar enough with the encounter to know when to drop it -- which new Shamans won't. It also requires a GCD, stopping you from healing, and destroys your current Earth Totem, which in the best-case scenario has no impact on your raid... but in the worst-case scenario decreases the Armor of your tank(s) by 4075.

Saying glyph of SCT has a larger impact than glyph of HW is correct. Saying it's for everyone, especially for new Shamans, is not.


Your argument weights heavily on the idea that "they don't know how, so they should not get it".

They should learn to use it. (and many new shamans read EJ to get an idea of how to heal better/become a better player!) Just because they don't know how to do something does not mean they should not learn it. If they're not made aware of how good this glyph actually is then they'll never try it - thus never learn how to use it correctly. New shamans probably don't know how to heal efficiently either - should they just lay down their maces and stop healing all together? A new player's goal should be to improve.

Sure, it costs a Global - but so does Riptide or any heal that would save your life. And you can use it on the move (if Unleash, Spiritwalkers and Riptide is on cooldown) - additionally you can have it in your Call of Elements setup - thus making it not cost an additional global.

And yes, it does cost an Earth totem (albeit, only for a second if you swap back,) so it's not for all - and I would not recommend avid use of it if your raid relies on your earth totem to have an uptime of 100% - but hey - your raid relies on you to stay alive to heal them as well.

A dead shaman heals for nothing, while ~4000 armour may mitigate a tiny, tiny amount of damage.

I see your point though. However, my point is valid for the more experienced shamans reading EJ as well - not just the fresh-out-of-the-box ones.

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impress them by knowing that the nature damage the totem deals could be resisted on the PTR

It seems like this is won't be the case on Live.

#59 Guest_Amilie_*

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 10:28 PM

A couple of interesting reports about patch 4.1 thus far.

First, the ICD on DMC:T has been decreased. It will now refresh every ~3 seconds or so. Not that uptime was a problem before, but a buff is a buff.

Second, Focused Insight works beautifully with Healing Rain, but the first instant tick does not appear to get the bonus.

#60 Malefà cent

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Posted 27 April 2011 - 09:40 AM

This is going to be so incredibly wonderful its beyond measure, currently I have +55%, and while this may contribute to more OH by ELW, RT HOT and HST it will also increase overall healing by a chunk.

If people can confirm when this goes live if it is indeed affecting these it would be appreciated by all, to aid this I have completely removed all buffs and right now (prior to 4.1) the following spells heal for the following:

RT Hot - 1982
ELW - 1856
HST - 1299
ES - 5754

These were all the non crits ofc

I will edit this post in the morning tomorrow after the patch to see if Mastery is indeed having an affect on these spells.


Okay time to update:

Yesterday Pre Patch:

HST – 1299 ticks – Now 1476 at 100% health……not quite sure what is going on there as assumed Mastery does not add anything to fully healed people, however I tested this a great deal and it never ever ticked below 1476 while all day yesterday never went above 1299 – ofc totally unbuffed.

When I mounted and dropped down to lose health this increased accordingly until again returning to 1476 at full health.

RT Hot – 1982 – Now min tick is 2046 – again mounted and fell and the ticks went:

2523
2478
2444
2411
3657 – crit
2323

ELW – 1865 – today min amount was the same – which is different from the above, however after finding a wall to jump from and casting Hw till EL procced it then went:

2387
2346
2317

ES – This has been nerfed – yesterday avg tick was 5754, now it is only 4575.

Mastery DOES work on this, however at 45% health it ticked for 5946, so a nerf but then also when lower health it will return more – depending on the tanks health will depend of the amount this gives, probably a slight reduction overall I would imagine.

Please note I currently have +55% Mastery

------------------------------------------

I have also been sold on the Stoneclaw issue, and will now be using it, I have also got the engineering Shield which I have macroed to the same, every little helps. One very good reason for taking it is that to obtain a similar EP build I have had to drop dmg reduction talent - Ancestral Resolve - this was only useful to me for predictable inc dmg from bosses, so having this totem mitigates this loss.

Can confirm alongside Amilie that FI does now work with Healing rain, making this a possible highly desirable talent to take if you go down the EP route, which I do.

Yesterday at Full Health HR ticked for on avg 2471 without FI, today also at full health it was ticking for 3031. However, the first tick is not affected by FI still




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