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[Balance] Simple Questions + WoL Feedback


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#1 Carebare

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 12:23 AM

This is the thread for simple questions regarding Balance. If your question applies to one of the existing thread topics, please post it there instead; if you expect to generate significant additional discussion, create a new thread. If, however, you have a simple question that only requires a simple answer and don't see a better place to post it, this is your thread.

Review the forum rules.
Though forum rule 7 is relaxed for this thread, that doesn't mean the rest of the rules are. Familiarize yourself with them prior to posting or you will be infracted.

Additionally, we are now allowing you to post your World of Logs parses if you feel stuck with respect to your DPS. Please note you must follow the criteria listed here:
  • The parse must be from a 10 or 25 man raid (non-heroic is fine). 5-mans and target dummies are not welcome.
  • In line with this, you must be max level (85). We're not about to look over a log from a level 70 Sunwell run.
  • Your profile MUST work. If you tend to change specs/log out in PVP gear please create a character profile through Wowhead or a similar site. That way if your issue is related to your gear, help can be provided. If your post is about an alt druid, you absolutely must provide an armory link/character profile or we simply can't help you.
  • You must give a few sentences regarding what you think your problem is. Are you moving a lot due to fight mechanics? Do you perform some vital secondary role that may impact your DPS? (kiting, etc). We can't help you if you don't help us.

Please note that this thread is no exception to how the rest of our forums work regarding the fact that no one is obligated to help you. Do not bump, repost, or cry about it. You will be heavily infracted if you do.

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#2 Fréddie

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 02:51 AM

Starfall and Nefarian hardmode. The stars hit mindcontrolled people. Do you consider it too risky to use that spell, even if you make sure it has run out before each crackle?

#3 qae

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 03:08 AM

My guild is currently working on Nef HM, and we have decided to forbid any uncontrolled high damage aoe because of the mcs. That means no starfall, no killing spree, and so on.

I actually only use starfall in P2, because the only other time when you could use it is right at the start of the fight (before nef lands), but then it will hit adds and the tank in charge of kitting them will hate you. Of course it's frustrating but you have to realise that anyway, more than 50% of starfall's damage would hit adds or buddies, so the actual dps of starfall (and by actual dps I mean usefull dps) would be quite low - not counting the fact that you may very well kill someone.

All in all, I don't think you should use starfall against Nef HM, except in phase 2.

#4 Hamlet

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 03:15 AM

I've been using it with some care. I'm not convinced it's worth it though, since it can wind up putting so little damage on Nef anyway, regardless of the fact that it's pretty safe if you use it well.

If you do want to use it, use it near the end of an MC (~5s before the next one). That way some of the previous MC'd people have broken theirs (healers, etc.). Also, you don't want a fresh Starfall up when you get MC'd, because it will start hitting people hard as you start building stacks. Also, don't use one if an Electrocute is coming.

With those provisos, it's not that dangerous. A star hits someone for like 3-4k, which is mostly irrelevant. I just wonder whether it's worth bothering with since so little of the damage will hit the targets.

#5 qae

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 12:26 PM

I just wonder whether it's worth bothering with since so little of the damage will hit the targets.


Yeah that's pretty much what I though.. I actually face the same problem against Magmaw HM (since we kite the worms). I still use Starfall since it's not dangerous.. but most of the stars will fall on worms, which is useless

#6 Melador

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Posted 21 April 2011 - 03:34 AM

I pretty much only use it immediately on the pull and in p2. Even assuming it is a theoretical dps increase, I think the disruption of trying to only use it at only the right times probably would hurt my overall dps.

Overall I find starfall pretty annoying to use -- in many fights the marginal dps increase rarely seems worth the chance of screwing up a pull by pulling an add, damaging MCed people, hitting a shield, breaking some CC, etc.

#7 MÃ nze

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Posted 21 April 2011 - 12:27 PM

Any tips how to survive Explosive Cinders if you get it during the p1->p2 transition? The damage seem to be extremly high, I'm not even sure if I should use Frenzied Regeneration since I loose dmg reduction from the moonkin form. So what do you guys do? Prehot, pop barkskin and pray that your healer don't slack?

#8 Hamlet

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Posted 21 April 2011 - 05:52 PM

We have it easier than most classes due to 15% DR (can also Aquatic Form back to the pillar). It's the same as anyone else--don't spend more time in the magma than necessary. On the first one where you're stuck in there from the beginning, this means not going too far away and getting on the pillar promptly. Otherwise, yeah, healers just have to watch those first 3 targets (obviously help out with Barkskin too).

#9 Fréddie

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Posted 21 April 2011 - 06:49 PM

Don't forget that if you get the very first cinder, there is a window of a few seconds where you can get on the pillar, before you have to jump off again.

#10 qae

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Posted 21 April 2011 - 08:36 PM

Another note is that it's pretty easy to afford 3/3 Perseverance on your moonkin spec, and it's really worth it for Nef HM.
Also it seems that Owlkin frenzy is procing alot due to targeting mechanisms and MCs.

#11 Bartesh

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Posted 23 April 2011 - 01:48 PM

Prowla, 10-man normal Cho'gall:
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

I've never really gotten past 17k (I average ~15k/16k) and I believe I should be doing a moderate amount more in my current gear. This is nowhere near an ideal parse for me but it's recent. As for my dps being low on this encounter:
-- Sun/Moonfire total damage appears low (I've found that, in order to keep up high DoT uptime, I'm refreshing them outside of Eclipse half the time)
-- Overall Eclipse time appears to be low (especially Solar)
-- Wild Mushroom damage is low due to not being in Solar for two of the Slime Phases

On parses where my dps is higher (such as World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis) I have a much better Eclipse uptime (and WM + Sun/Moonfire dps) but find myself Sunfire spamming to do so, something that has been brought up as a dps loss in numerous forums. You may also notice that the higher dps parse has Hero and Fire Totem to help bolster the dps, but I also had worse gear.

#12 qae

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Posted 24 April 2011 - 04:04 AM

For Normal Chogall, I make sure to get into solar as the Corrupting Adherent pop (or while I'm dpsing it), then switch to IS/Sunfire spamm (+instant Starsurges if it won't get me out of solar) on Chogall + Corrupting Adherent, put my mushrooms down as the adherent dies, resume dps on Chogall (regular dps or Sunfire spamm if low on solar energy) until I get to detonate my shrooms, Typhoon them back, and go back to Chogall as they are about dead.
Resume normal "rotation" until the next adherent.

IS+Sunfire spamm is not that good on 1 target, but in this case it's mostly on 2, and I'm pretty sure the eclipsed shrooms more than make up for the slight dps loss over a "standard" rotation. In addition, you are 100% mobile while dpsing the adherent, which is pretty nice to move out of the bad stuff.


On the topic of IS+Sunfire spamm, while my guild was working on Valiona+Theralion, I realised that since we have almost always 2 targets, IS+Sunfire spamm would come close to a regular "rotation", especially since I have to take care of adds in the twillight realm, and you need to move quite a bit in this fight. The result is of course not optimal dps, but still pretty good, considering I get to be 100% mobile, never stop dps, and always be in eclipse when I get to the twillight realm. Pretty nice to play with this while learning the encounter, in order to focus on other things than your dps (while still doing enough no problem).

Example : (Didn't get DI this night :/ the SP got all the love)

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Keep in mind that I had to get to the twillight realm twice in the fight to help clear things out, and that it was not our first time on it so I was kinda not on top of my game.

edit : for the 1st down, I actually used a regular "rotation", and of course my dps was higher as you can expect it (I also didn't have to deal with the twillight realm). But still, food for your thoughts

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

#13 DiNet

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Posted 06 May 2011 - 08:59 AM

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

In every log you'll see that i probably am very bad boomkin.
The one that is over me all the time has slightly higher gear, however he does out dps me for a big margin. He never uses tranquil to help, i do in AoE dmg fights, CR and innervate healers. Still there are logs where our dps is differs by almost 10k. On training dummy i pull 16k-17k with flask and selfbuff. I have reread guide for several times, watched few videos on youtube from boomkins and still...

How can i pull those epic 27k dps? Or am i useless as boomkin and should just get back to healing?
On add fight (like maloriak) i DoT every add and use mushrooms+stars. I start fights:volcanic, dots+treants.

Don't tell me to ask him how he pulls higher dps, he's a douche, he doesn't want to help me.

#14 Nev

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Posted 07 May 2011 - 05:32 AM

I'm in pretty much the same situation as the above poster, I am consistently pulling 16k on fights where I see similarly geared boomkins pull upwards of 23k. I'm a resto druid, but my raid leader wants me to mainswitch to boomkin. I'm dpsing in about 363 ilvl gear, but all my set pieces/bonuses are resto. The fight I do offspec the most is currently cho'gall.
On cho'gall, I: Pre-pot, pop starfall and treants at the beginning, blast to solar, and do my rotation while keeping dots on all targets, switching to elementals when they spawn. I don't dot the elementals because they aren't alive for very long: should I be?
I make sure to be in solar every time the adherents spawn, I dot everything up, spam sunfire while moving on adherents, pop a few wraths on the fire elemental, and then drop my wild mushrooms (if it's the first one they will be there already since I drop a set before the fight starts), filling up the time between WM:Detonate with sunfire spam on adds (while moving for lunar shower).

Is there anything else I can be doing better? I really can't imagine that I am 7k dps below similarly geared players unless I'm missing something MAJOR. Please help!

Here are two links to attempts where I was dpsing on Cho'Gall if those are useful at all. (I have it by player but you can switch to analyze:damage done if that's more useful.)

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

On this following parse, I did 19.2k dps which is my best cho'gall parse and the only time I've made it over 17.5k. It was also one of our longer attempts on cho'gall ever, at just over eight minutes. However, 1.8 million (19.1%) of my damage was from wild mushrooms (on the slimes). Is this what I should be aiming for for this fight?
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

I can't imagine it is, as in videos I see boomkins doing 25k sustained single-target from the start of the fight until the adherents spawn, without using any wild mushrooms.


Here's my armory, although it will likely show me in my resto gear. For reference, my boomkin set has one more heroic piece (atra helm) as well as DMC:Volcano.
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#15 Labrynth

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Posted 08 May 2011 - 01:25 PM

all my set pieces/bonuses are resto


Not quite sure how 'similarly gear boomkin' and this statement can coexist.

Set bonuses alone would be almost worth the difference you are noticing surely.

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Posted 08 May 2011 - 05:50 PM

A couple of things in the current content that seem to make the most difference between "similiarly geared moonkins" is:

-use of eclipsed DoTs on all relevant targets (for example, on Cho'gall, the ability to keep DoTs on Cho'gall while you are dealing with adds, all while in eclipse)

-the ability to be in the best eclipse throughout the encounters (harder than it seems to really optimize it)

-using the correct dps CDs on phases where there are damage buffs (Halfus, Magmaw, etc)

-a user interface designed on purpose for what you are doing (eclipse management, multi target DoT management, CD management, quick targeting, quick innervating/rezzing)

-making some gainful use of every global CD you have in a given encounter

The above factors can easily make the difference between 23k and 16k dps. Part of what makes playing the 4.1 version of balance druids fun is that it takes quite a lot of experience, strategy and skill to make the most of your opportunites given the tool set we have at our disposal. It is definitely a spec where playing smarter (not harder) can provide huge gains in dps.

#17 Nev

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 07:04 AM

Sorry for being inaccurate in my earlier post. When I said "similarly geared", what I really meant was similar average ilvl. Obviously boomkin set pieces will be better for boomkins than resto set pieces. Mostly what I was wondering was
1.) How much dps gain can I expect to see from replacing my resto set pieces with the boomkin ones? Rawr says there is about a 1700 dps difference, but i'm not sure if that is right or not as Rawr has given me some clearly wrong numbers before
and
2.) whether the amount of damage I was getting from moonfire/IS/wrath/starfire were roughly proportional to what I should be aiming for.

I won't waste your time with logs, but from a recent night of wipes on sinestra my overall percentages were: Wrath (21.1%), Starfire (20.2%), IS (16.0%), Sunfire (14.4%), Starsurge (10.3%), Moonfire (9.7%)

Here's the link to the log if your curiosity is just killing you: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Additionally, this may seem like a stupid question, but which boomkin spec CDs (aka, not potions or heroism) are you talking about using during the burn phases for magmaw or halfus?

#18 nasapunk88

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Posted 18 May 2011 - 12:53 AM

1.) How much dps gain can I expect to see from replacing my resto set pieces with the boomkin ones? Rawr says there is about a 1700 dps difference, but i'm not sure if that is right or not as Rawr has given me some clearly wrong numbers before
and
2.) whether the amount of damage I was getting from moonfire/IS/wrath/starfire were roughly proportional to what I should be aiming for.

I won't waste your time with logs, but from a recent night of wipes on sinestra my overall percentages were: Wrath (21.1%), Starfire (20.2%), IS (16.0%), Sunfire (14.4%), Starsurge (10.3%), Moonfire (9.7%)

Additionally, this may seem like a stupid question, but which boomkin spec CDs (aka, not potions or heroism) are you talking about using during the burn phases for magmaw or halfus?


My guild hasn't worked on Sinestra. We are currently just working towards other heroics, so I dont know that fight. However, your ratio is spot on to my usual ratio for non-huge aoe fights.
The boomkin 4set bonus does actually increase your dps drastically. If anything I'd say it is close to what Rawr puts you at; atleast 1k dps more. For instance, 24sec (more like 20 but lets be leaniant) to get from lunar to solar. 5 of those seconds (21% of the time. Give 1sec for screwups) you have ~60%crit bonus. So that is a 12.6% +crit overall =2258.928rating=(according to Rawr 1crit=~.8dps) 1807dps. This is very very general, quick and sloppy math (I lowered all values slightly to give room for error) but it does show that even if your rotation fails it can equal major dps (just 12 sec of having your dot's with 100% crit is huge).

Looking at that WoL your eclipse uptime seems quite low (38%). You want to see as close to 50% uptime (I'm usually around 56%). Some fights are bad I know but you can prolong Solar for those portions if possible. Anytime there is a lot of movement I make sure I'm in eclipse, just have to try and time it right (run in circles and just MF spam :D). To me Eclipse management is a huge aspect of it. Like Magmaw, you better just be entering an eclipse right after head goes down to get max dps off. Be in eclipse as much as possible! Dont get stuck outside of it.

For cooldowns you have treants and trinkets. I'm not sure what else honestly boomkins have but he could be referring too Eclipse, Wild mushrooms? Instead of replacing buffed dots with nonbuffed on movement, set them down and use in solar. Pop treants when you know boss gets a buff, you have full proc's of SP on, or heroism is gonna be used in few seconds etc.

#19 Fréddie

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Posted 23 May 2011 - 01:12 PM

This is a question about Sinestra 10 man. Handling the Twilight Spitecaller interrupting in a conventional way (Gouge?) might be an issue so I'm wondering if it's possible to simply spam Hibernate on it until it is dead?

edit:
I can answer my own question after trying tonight; it quickly got Immune to the sleep effect. We were successful with other methods. The problem with using Hibernate as part of an interrupt rotation is of course that it's a 1.2 second cast, after haste, and the add cast is 1.5 seconds long. That leaves very little room for error and reactions.

#20 Faeylin

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Posted 27 May 2011 - 03:25 PM

I have access to a number of normal mode trinkets, including Heart of Ignacious. Given that our dots are super strong and that they scale well with haste, is it worth using over an Alchemist's Stone or Theralion's Mirror? The mirror seems sucky because it could proc while not in eclipse (and end up wasted), etc. Right now, I'm activating the use during eclipse, just before activating nature's grace with my first insect swarm (preferably where I can multidot), as close to on-CD as possible.

My first trinket is a DMC:V card and it's probably a choice between an Int Alchemist stone (reforged haste) or the Heart.




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