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[Balance] Simple Questions + WoL Feedback


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#41 Erdluf

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Posted 18 August 2011 - 09:14 PM

A simplified view of the moonkin rotation for a Patchwerk fight, in round numbers:

100% dps ~= 10s of 75% dps + 13s of 120% dps.

Ignoring things like Bloodlust, best case the Moonkin gains extra damage equal to 10s * 45% of his average DPS, or roughly 150k of damage over the course of the fight. For a five minute fight that is about 500 DPS.

That number goes up considerably if he can pre-place Mushrooms to be detonated at the start of the fight, but he can't pre-place them to be detonated 40s into the fight (not sure where his target(s) will be). It is also becomes bad for him if your raid pops Bloodlust at the start of the fight. The value of taking a potion just before the pull also goes down considerably if he starts at zero energy.

For AoE situations it could take the Moonkin close to 40s of non-movement to get to Solar Eclipse. If he gets to AoE in Solar, he does OP Moonkin AoE. If he isn't in Solar, he may only do 60% of that. Similar considerations apply if there is heavy movement during the first 30s or so of the fight.

#42 FBMWhite

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Posted 19 August 2011 - 08:22 AM

For my character both Rawr and Wrathcalcs suggest using glyphs of Starfire/Moonfire/Starsurge over IS and Wrath. The Wrathcalcs section of the Balance thread suggests this is optimistic, but Rawr also agrees. I haven't actually seen a boomkin use that glyph configuration and my gear has been too inconsistent to really compare. Does anyone have some input on this?

#43 Erdluf

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Posted 19 August 2011 - 12:57 PM

The value of GoSFire and GoSS are strongly dependent on the timing of raid events and/or your Eclipse cycle. Both Rawr and WC tend to use very similar logic for things that depend on Eclipse timing, so their rankings will be similar.

Without GoSS, you can reliably drop Starfall every ~62s or more. With GoSS, that number drops to ~47s, with occasional opportunities as low as ~37s. If a fight reliably has a burn phase every 47s to 62s, GoSS is strong. If not, GoSS is weak. Note that Lunar Eclipse is a minor burn phase as far as Starfall is concerned.

For some "normal" fights GoSFire could save you a GCD about every ~24s, and that is worth a bit more than either GoSS or GoWr. If a fight has any movement, and you refresh MF during that movement,GoSFire did nothing for you.
GoSFire is very strong if it lets you extend a DoT that is OP due to some temporary boss mechanic.

GoWr is slightly stronger than GoIS on a Pure patchwerk fight. However, raid events are much more likely to reduce Wrath's uptime than IS's uptime.

#44 Taringe

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Posted 22 August 2011 - 12:38 PM

Recently my guild has been having issues with boomkins not taking a mass res, and running back in order to kill critters on the way, to move their eclipse bars into a full eclipse prior to pulling. We are having issues with this with regards to them pulling mobs and dying while doing this, or even just waiting longer for them to get back, and then having to wait for them to eat/get buffs. I am curious if in other guilds, the boomkins do this as well, and what kind of DPS gain would they lose out on if they were to start the pull at a 0 eclipse bar compared to if they were to start at a full one.


The only place I would say doing this is critical to a moonkin is if they are assigned to a spiderling spawn on Beth.

#45 Mogurii

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Posted 26 August 2011 - 05:02 PM

Hello EJ,

I've recently finished leveling my first 85 alt, my moonkin, and have been raiding for only a few weeks now. I am constantly on EJ and TMR looking for tips/tricks/rotations and trying to play the class to the best of my ability.

I'm looking for a critique of my current gear/damage parses, as well as any help you can offer based on this past weeks raid.

WOL: http://worldoflogs.c...eports/0rtuxe90 ... amageDone/
WOL: http://worldoflogs.c...eports/6k2fwqln ... amageDone/

Armory: http://us.battle.net.../en/character/m ... h/advanced

EpeenBot: Omhotah - Epeen Bot - RaidBots - Web Tools for WoW Nerds

I seem to have the idea down for most of the aoe heavy fights. I look at epeenbot over at raidbots.com very often for my main and my new alt, and it seems I"m performing *well* compared to others on those fights. However, I've noticed that my single target dps is not up to par.

WrathCalcs is telling me I should be pulling about 25.5k single target dps in my gear/buffs. I'd like to see if I can close to realizing that potential on Baleroc/Domo fights.

On the Domo kill in the above parses, I actually died to Leaping Flames while covering my Flame Orb, so you can look at the wipes from that Tuesday as well.

My haste is very low atm, as I am having a hard time staying hit capped and such. I've got some gear that is not optimal, but it's what I have to deal with atm. I also already have the t12 chest, and am buying the gloves next week for my 2p.

I've actually been looking at Faerra and Tagartou's single target logs compared to mine, and I wanted to see what people thought I could improve upon. I think that I'm putting too much emphasis on dots, as their wrath/starfire damage way out paces mine, even when the fights were so much shorter. Perhaps I'm dotting too much. At my gear/haste level I'm applying both upon entering and refreshing when leaving (with NG/Eclipse still up). When my haste was a bit higher I could do the 3 portion refresh a bit more easily (into and out of solar, midway through lunar), but my haste is such that my dots are falling off just a tad early.

Any criticism is welcome, I'm looking to play this class, which I have so much fun playing, at it's pinnacle.

#46 pannz

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Posted 09 September 2011 - 06:03 AM

I've a question that I have not found the answer anywhere, so, I guess you can explain this.

I've casted IS (no procs: int, haste, mastery yet), then MF, at the beginning of the encounter, SF til solar eclipse, then, refreshed IS and casted sunfire, but, my question is, when I've refreshed IS, has it gained the buffs I've proced? Like Power Torrent, Volcanic Destruction, etc? or it will keep the way I've first casted at the beginning of the encounter?

I've searched on balance's guide and found this "...Because the entire DoT is effected by your stats at the moment of cast...", but, anyway, what means "at the moment of cast", the first cast? or refreshing it may count as a "new" cast stats ?

Thank you, Pannz.

#47 Hamlet

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Posted 09 September 2011 - 05:26 PM

When you refresh IS it will gain any buffs that you have active at that moment. The refresh is basically new cast.

The only complicated case is extended Moonfire with Starfire, which updates haste but not anything else.

#48 piefayth

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Posted 14 September 2011 - 07:16 AM

I recently joined a new guild and found myself in different roles than I'm used to, mostly as a product of a transition from 10 to 25 man. As a result, I'm putting out way lower numbers than I'm used to.

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

My primary concerns are H Rhyo and H Alysrazor. On Rhyolith I'm on add duty. We don't bother with DPSing the slimes. I'd like to camp solar for the entire fight and just use wild mushroom on cooldown on the fragments, but the need for high dps on the sparks results in me having to leave solar. In addition, I don't have the mana pool to hurricane fragments while wild mushroom is on cooldown. I dot the legs so I don't waste GCDs, but it really doesn't seem like I can utilize all of them and still maintain enough mana for the burn phase.

On Alys, I'm focusing on the hatchlings / meteors. This was just a trainwreck for me. There's just no position I can stand in for any length of time and DPS. Trying to remain mobile and dotting everything in sight prevents me from using like half my GCDs. With all the fire, my overall uptime is abysmal. I have absolutely no idea how to optimize on this fight.

Any suggestions, or even some logs to look at in which other druids are doing similiar roles, would be much appreciated. Thank you in advance for you time.

#49 hobitzz

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Posted 20 September 2011 - 10:44 AM

I was wondering how much dps the Tier12 4 set bonus is worth. I really dont understand the mechanics of when to and when not to cast starsurge with the tier bonus and was wondering how much of a dps loss it would be to take offpiece items instead.

#50 Sysunia

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Posted 24 September 2011 - 01:28 PM

I got a question about geting into eclipse before the pull. I read once in some guide that there is something from engieenring that I can summon and kill and get to eclipse, but I didnt realy think about it then since I didnt have engi. But recently I got it but I cant remeber what was it or where did I read about it.

So does any one know what it might be, and does it still work? Yeah we got criters to kill in FL, but my RL is geting more and more mad at me for hunting criters after every wipe. And who knows if there will be any criters in the next tier, BoT BWD TotFW didnt have any...

#51 Pyrates

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Posted 05 October 2011 - 01:06 PM

I'm usually Resto, but for Rag hero I've switched to moonkin, and I'd like to get some feedback on the tries. Here's the log:

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Of course, we're whiping, so there's probably a plethora of things going wrong (and of course I take every hint I can get, even if not moonkin-specific). My gear should be ok due to using a lot of items from my main spec, but is void of any set boni.

Specifically for this fight, I've made the following decision (up for debate, of course): I'll want to be in solar eclipse for the seeds, and by trial and error I've found that it's not quite possible for me when I refresh dots at the beginning and at the end of every eclipse. So I do only refresh dots when they run out, and I comfortably reach solar eclipse during the first transition phase. I stay in solar till after the seed phase. Since we stop boss damage around the 3rd seed spawn to wait for world in flames, this seems to make a lot of sense for me (since the alternative would lessen aoe damage and push boss damage). For the seeds, I preplant mushrooms and push starfall, upon spawn I explode the mushrooms, put up hurricane (for 1 or 2 ticks), when I run out I use typhoon and use either sunfire or wrath to finish up individual seeds. Is there a better way?

I don't use starfall in the transition phases due to using it for the seeds. If the seeds work better, I'd want to skip that and use it in transitions, because I image it's hugely valuable there.

My gripe is that I think I should be doing more damage, especially since there's quite some aoe involved, but I can't see what I'm doing wrong. I try to run as little as possible during world in flames and such, but often I just need to move some more (e.g. in p1 when there's a trap nearby). In particular, I often can't finish a cast during world in flames, even if I take only a small step (wrath works, but starfire usually does not). I'd really be grateful for any hint how I could push damage. I'm really willing to micromanage every aspect for this fight, I guess progress will still take some time :)

One particular trouble is the travel time of wrath/starsurge, I'd often cast one or two more wraths then I need to when going lunar. I'm trying to get a grip on it by remembering the number of casts needed, but euphoria makes that kinda unreliable. How does anyone else handle this?

#52 qae

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Posted 05 October 2011 - 02:24 PM

One particular trouble is the travel time of wrath/starsurge, I'd often cast one or two more wraths then I need to when going lunar. I'm trying to get a grip on it by remembering the number of casts needed, but euphoria makes that kinda unreliable. How does anyone else handle this?


You should definately use the addon BalancePowerTracker to watch you eclipses : The option "Foresee energy" let you see when you can start casting Starfire, even if it will take some time for your wrath to hit Ragnaros.

#53 dozens

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Posted 05 October 2011 - 04:37 PM

I have a pretty good set of raid gear for balance for a toon with limited raid time (an ALT). I am thinking of picking up resto as a secondary spec for greater flexibility. I currently have T11 Balance chest and legs and I read here that the 2T11 bonus isnt so great. So I was wondering should I still try to get a 2T11 resto set (legs & chest). Without reforging the balance pair gives me alot more haste, comparison

#54 Sysunia

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 12:38 AM

You get a set bonus, more haste wich is your best secondary stat, less crit wich is your worst secondary stat. There is nothing to think about. If you want to take those resto items for your healing offspec fine, but there is no point in using those items for balance DPS.

#55 Ducka

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Posted 13 October 2011 - 02:36 AM

I have a couple questions really, and just want to clear up some uncertainties I have about the balance rotation. What I've been doing so far is IS > MF > SS > Starfire until eclipse. I've been using Starfall / Treants / SS on cooldown. I have just been refreshing dots as they come down (before the last tick). My dps has been really low, so I decided there had to be something I missed along the way.

From what I understand I'm actually supposed to refresh dots when starting eclipse, or leaving eclipse (but still in it). I've seen people say both, but I'm not sure which one is correct. A question related to this is, if I refresh them when starting an eclipse, it's not a dps loss to clip them everytime? I come from playing a warlock, so it's habit for me to never clip dots.

A few other questions...
Should I only be using starfall and starfire when in a lunar eclipse?

What benefit does lunar shower give, when should I be spamming MF instead of using mushrooms during movement?

How does natures grace affect dot priorities? I understand that I should cast the weaker one first, so that the second one benefits from NG.

#56 teembagel

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 04:39 PM

Try to refresh your dots leaving eclipse if they have less than 8s left on them.

Starfall is greatly increased in lunar and you should be using starfire in lunar as well and to get to solar. Don't forget to dot up in lunar eclipse and use starsurge.

You should be using both if you can. Put MF/SF on a couple of targets then try to drop your stacks by placing your mushrooms and using IS.

IS then MF for NG

#57 Panzerlol

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 09:26 AM

Ok, my moonkin has DMC:Volcano and Power Torrent enchant.

Let's say these 2 proc at the same time, and I am around 0 solar energy (in the middle of the bar), and I refresh my DoTs.

But say I hit solar eclipse, with still 8-12 sec left on the dots, but the int/sp procs have worn off. Should I refresh them right away to benefit from the eclipse, or let them tick since they are still buffed with over 2k SP more than I usually have?

Basically, what is most beneficial, 2K SP boosted DoTs, or eclipse-boosted DoTs? I guess it depends on your mastery, and exactly how big the SP buff is, but is there any rule of thumb or such?

Like many other posters here, the durid in question is an alt, and probably not optimally geared.
My moonkin with the creative name has 1106 Mast/28% eclipse bonus, and ~8.6 k SP raid buffed.

#58 Larrabee

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 03:17 PM

If you mean that they have the power torrent + DMC:V proc AND eclipsed you should obviously not just reapply dots right away. Instead start working yourself towards lunar and then refresh before they end.

If you mean that you apply them uneclipsed then you're doing it wrong. Don't apply dots unecliped.

Even if DMC:V and power torrent procs right after you redot and leave an eclipse you should have time to get into eclipse and reapply dots with them up (although I would say this sort of depends on the encounter, if you have to move for example, then you might as well reapply dots before/after)

#59 Thorsis

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Posted 14 November 2011 - 05:51 PM

ok so refresh dots each time you leave an eclypse? I have mage nuggets which has been very helpful as I get an interface telling me how much time I have left and I have been making sure I don't lose a DOT.

Also is there an updated Talent tree for Balance? I quit playing for a few months and just got back after it, I want to make sure I have everything where it needs to be.

Is there a BIS list as well?

Thanks.

#60 Panzerlol

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Posted 15 November 2011 - 09:18 AM

If you mean that they have the power torrent + DMC:V proc AND eclipsed you should obviously not just reapply dots right away. Instead start working yourself towards lunar and then refresh before they end.

If you mean that you apply them uneclipsed then you're doing it wrong. Don't apply dots unecliped.


Aha! For some reason I thought that the eclipse boost was lost from the dots after the eclipse faded, just like haste updates on the dot for each tick (it does, right? It's not another thing I've gotten wrong?)

@Thorsis:
Is there a BIS list as well?

BiS lists are out of most people's league unless you have FL H on farm. I would say
- Stack haste as much as you can, with reforges and gem choices
- Higher ilvl is usually always better
- Set bonuses are good, try to get them when you can.




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