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[Feral] Simple Questions + WoL Feedback


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#21 a civilian

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 05:03 PM

It's worth delaying rip by up to 2 seconds, possibly 3, to synchronize with TF. At 3 seconds you'll lose 3/22 = 13.6% (or 3/24 = 12.5%, if bug applies) of rip damage, not accounting for the small amount of energy saved, and gain 15%. If you do this you'll also lose at most 1 shred during TF, or 15% shred damage which is approximately 2.5% rip damage.

This means in most cases it will be worth using rip after TF in the opener. The same isn't true of rake; a similar analysis (which also takes into account the saved energy, which is significant for rake) indicates that it's only worth delaying rake by 1-2 seconds to synchronize with TF. Better to open with rake.

#22 Petitourson

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Posted 22 May 2011 - 01:09 PM

It's worth delaying rip by up to 2 seconds, possibly 3, to synchronize with TF. At 3 seconds you'll lose 3/22 = 13.6% (or 3/24 = 12.5%, if bug applies) of rip damage, not accounting for the small amount of energy saved, and gain 15%. If you do this you'll also lose at most 1 shred during TF, or 15% shred damage which is approximately 2.5% rip damage.


Whenever you delay refreshing Rip beyond the last tick, which is carried over to the next Rip cycle if refreshed in time, you generate downtime equal to the time it takes you to re-cast Rip plus your latency and you open up the possibility of getting dodged or missing, adding another GCD (or more if out of luck) worth of downtime. Furthermore if you get an OOC proc right before TF comes off cooldown you may not be able to get your energy low enough so you don't waste any of KotJ's 60 energy. I trust you also have lightning-fast reflexes and can press both your TF key and Rip almost simultaneously as soon as TF is available. All these seconds and fractions add up and that's why this has been tested out as dps-neutral or a slight loss over the course of a fight and not worth the hassle of refreshing Rip outside of the secure post-penultimate tick refresh path. Do not delay the Rip refresh especially if you have high latency. I will not mention other possible priority conflicts like clipping Rake during TF.

#23 silentscream

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Posted 22 May 2011 - 09:03 PM

Greetings all, I have a question regarding gemming for bear tanking. Recently, i have built up my tank set for our progression group (kitty dps being my main spec) and was wondering at when and IF to gem for straight dodge. I.E. would gemming 67 Dodge chimera eyes be more beneficial than gemming the 67 agility chim? Forgive me if this has already been discussed, but i have yet to find the topic. Thank you much.

#24 a civilian

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Posted 22 May 2011 - 09:50 PM

Whenever you delay refreshing Rip beyond the last tick, which is carried over to the next Rip cycle if refreshed in time, you generate downtime equal to the time it takes you to re-cast Rip plus your latency and you open up the possibility of getting dodged or missing, adding another GCD (or more if out of luck) worth of downtime. Furthermore if you get an OOC proc right before TF comes off cooldown you may not be able to get your energy low enough so you don't waste any of KotJ's 60 energy. I trust you also have lightning-fast reflexes and can press both your TF key and Rip almost simultaneously as soon as TF is available. All these seconds and fractions add up and that's why this has been tested out as dps-neutral or a slight loss over the course of a fight and not worth the hassle of refreshing Rip outside of the secure post-penultimate tick refresh path. Do not delay the Rip refresh especially if you have high latency. I will not mention other possible priority conflicts like clipping Rake during TF.


Regarding the claim that it's been tested, I will remark that a simulator result is only as good as the script behind it. For a long time simulator results concluded that it was never a damage gain to refresh rip during TF. This ran directly counter to simple estimates; my position was the same then, and is now pretty much vindicated.

I won't claim to be correct here; I'm not planning to go through this argument again. I only wish to recommend keeping in mind the first sentence when reading simulator results. It's easy to find simulator results that only apply to the particular parameters of the simulation or script.

#25 BOHIC

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Posted 25 May 2011 - 06:19 PM

This is the opening rotation that I *try* to maintain...although, circumstances can change things:
0. Fairie Fire
1. Feral Charge to Target after pull
2. Rake
3. Mangle
4. Shred
---typically at this point in time, unless I got a OoC proc, I'll be very low on energy ---
5. Tiger's Fury
6. If at 5 CP, Rip, if not, Ravage!, then Rip, then Ravage! (if I didn't use it earlier)
7. Shred if I have energy
8. Beserk
9. Savage Roar, if I had been able to do Shred, otherwise Shred
10 (and on). Shred, Shred, Shred, keep rake up, keep rip up, keep savage roar up, use TF on CD, use Beserk on CD

I have to be very careful with this rotation though, because it is very easy to pull aggro off the tank....


With 4t11, I assume you Mangle instead of Shred before the initial Rip. Do you Mangle 3x before the initial Rip or is it better to just Rip with 1x or 2x Mangle if you've already hit 5CP?

edit: More generally, what's the priority for starting (or renewing after it's dropped) the 4t11 bonus? My intuition says that getting the Rip rolling is more important, but I guess it comes down to the value of one tick of Rip vs. 1-3% extra damage across the whole Rip + 1-3% extra damage on a couple of white hits?

#26 Petitourson

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Posted 27 May 2011 - 10:30 AM

And the answer to your question is obviously to have Rip rolling as soon as possible, since a 1-sec delay to refresh Rip with Tiger's Fury is barely worthwhile and we're talking here about a 15% increase, so let alone adding only 1%.
As for re-stacking Strength of the Panther at the expense of more Shreds, it depends on how long the boss has to live.

#27 Ilmatar

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Posted 27 May 2011 - 06:34 PM

I am having a strange issue with Rawr. I am consistently getting results in which the 'Current' result in the optimizer is greater than the 'Optimized' result. For example, I am looking at: "Current: 22024.24 Optimized: 21727.83" and three gear items show up on the list, but none have different gems or reforges.

Since this is only about 1% difference, should I interpret this result as, "This is as good as it gets with the input values given"?

My method:
1) Clear cache.
2) Load from Battle.Net, force-reload
3) Select 'Fully Buffed Cat'
4) Optimize with Ctrl+Click (For 10x thoroughness)

Armory Link: Annunaki - Feathermoon

#28 Ainarsong

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Posted 14 June 2011 - 11:37 PM

This isn't strictly speaking a game mechanics question and I don't want to provoke several replies of "Well, I do it this way", so if it's not an appropriate question for this venue I understand and will not have a problem with it being deleted.

I prefer to set my action bars up in such a way that important abilities are accessible in all situations. For example, on my warrior I like to set it up so that i can quickly and easily switch from berserker stance to defensive, equip a shield, and shield wall with a semi natural setup just through keybinds and without the help of a spammable macro that does this.

However, on my druid I am having a hard time setting my action bars up in such a way that I can have access to all the abilities I might need. I have too many cat form abilities to fit on one main bar, so some spill over onto my secondary bars, but I also need those slots for bear form abilities. And when that bar is full of cat and bear abilities, I start to run out of room for other important things, such as innervate, rebirth and any other things I might need to cast on the fly. Not to mention key binding for these bars so that I can use one bind for multiple abilities in each respective form seems impossible to manage.

With the addon Dominos, I can set up my bars so that when I am in x form, bars can replace each other, but it seems like every time I put abilities onto a seemingly empty bar, those spells show up on some other form's bar.

I am not totally convinced that this is a fixable issue, but I would really like to hear from some top level druid players on whether this is a problem for them, and if so how they address it.

#29 BOHIC

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Posted 15 June 2011 - 05:54 PM

This isn't strictly speaking a game mechanics question and I don't want to provoke several replies of "Well, I do it this way", so if it's not an appropriate question for this venue I understand and will not have a problem with it being deleted.

I prefer to set my action bars up in such a way that important abilities are accessible in all situations. For example, on my warrior I like to set it up so that i can quickly and easily switch from berserker stance to defensive, equip a shield, and shield wall with a semi natural setup just through keybinds and without the help of a spammable macro that does this.

However, on my druid I am having a hard time setting my action bars up in such a way that I can have access to all the abilities I might need. I have too many cat form abilities to fit on one main bar, so some spill over onto my secondary bars, but I also need those slots for bear form abilities. And when that bar is full of cat and bear abilities, I start to run out of room for other important things, such as innervate, rebirth and any other things I might need to cast on the fly. Not to mention key binding for these bars so that I can use one bind for multiple abilities in each respective form seems impossible to manage.

With the addon Dominos, I can set up my bars so that when I am in x form, bars can replace each other, but it seems like every time I put abilities onto a seemingly empty bar, those spells show up on some other form's bar.

I am not totally convinced that this is a fixable issue, but I would really like to hear from some top level druid players on whether this is a problem for them, and if so how they address it.


I use three bars for buttons that I'll press in combat. The center bar has bindings for 1 to 9, the top bar has bindings for buttons Alt+1 to Alt+9 and the bottom bar has bindings for Shift+1 to Shift+9. The bottom two bars will page depending on whether I'm in normal, cat, or bear form. The top bar has spells/macros/whatever that I might want in any form.

It sounds like your biggest issue might be that you haven't completely configured Dominos correctly. Get into normal form, unhide all of your bars, and work on redoing your form-paging bars so that they make sense to you. Then just re-hide the bars for bear/cat form and any extraneous bars you might have.

#30 Duilliath

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Posted 15 June 2011 - 05:58 PM

Bear form (and other forms) use specific bars already, same as Warrior stances. If you'd page through the various action bars, you'd find your abilities there already.

What I did to fix myself some space is to simply macro abilities together, e.g. Bear Swipe and Cat Swipe, Bear Charge and Cat Charge etc. These sit on a non-paging bar, the rest of the form abilities have a paging bar.
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#31 Xenoborg

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Posted 15 June 2011 - 08:42 PM

I too got fed up with the limits of paging, to the point where one day I converted all my buttons to macros on static bars. For example the macro for my "t" key:
#showtooltip
/cast [stealth] Pounce; [stance:1] Growl; [stance:3] Savage Roar(Cat Form); Hibernate
It will show up as and cast Pounce when in stealth, taunt while in bear, roar while in cat, and hibernate while in moonkin/resto

This will make the button seem to page the same as normal paging bars, but gives allot more control since you are not restricted to a single bar. It also take a lot longer to setup and move where skills are so your mileage may vary.

#32 Blakhoof

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Posted 18 June 2011 - 06:43 PM

Just use the build in bar option, turn on the extra 5 bars, so you can have all 6 of your bars up at once, bar 1 will swap with form, so put bear, cat, boomkin specific abilities on that one, put buffs, defensive CD's like barkskin and such that can be used in any form on the other ones.

I tried using some of the other bar add ons, but found that they would glitch badly on some fights, with the stock bar setup, no issues. There are nicer cleaner setups, but if your having issues the stock interface can be set up to work fine.

#33 Astinea

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Posted 21 June 2011 - 03:22 AM

Call me new, but i have been playing around with my haste and haste rating. What should i be aiming for? Currently i have just under 9% haste.

#34 Psychowolf

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 05:42 PM

Quick question about Thick Hide cause I don't want to misunderstand it. Am I right to assume the 78% boost to Armor (3/3 Thick Hide) is a boost to ALL armor, including Armor on Trinkets and from Potions? I have neither of these at the moment as I'm just starting on getting more tank focused trinkets (currently using full Cat gear/gem/enchants for normal mode tanking and it's been working fine with a tank spec), and curious if this 78% (not the 10% to Cloth/Leather) is similar to the original Thick Hide boost back in BC.

#35 Ilmatar

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 05:56 PM

Am I right to assume the 78% boost to Armor (3/3 Thick Hide) is a boost to ALL armor, including Armor on Trinkets and from Potions?.

This is not correct. Thick Hide applies only to armor, not (what is called) "bonus armor". Any armor which comes from a cloth or leather item (ignoring enchants) gains the Thick Hide benefit. This does include cloaks, but does not include rings, trinkets, necklaces etc. I do not know about potions, but my guess is no. I just tested it, potions are considered bonus armor.

#36 Psychowolf

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 11:32 PM

This is not correct. Thick Hide applies only to armor, not (what is called) "bonus armor". Any armor which comes from a cloth or leather item (ignoring enchants) gains the Thick Hide benefit. This does include cloaks, but does not include rings, trinkets, necklaces etc. I do not know about potions, but my guess is no.


Alright thanks. The wording confused me cause it says both 10% to armor from cloth/leather, and 78% increase to "armor" while in bear form.

#37 Iceypoi

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Posted 08 July 2011 - 03:47 AM

Just a simple question: What amount of dmg does Ferocious Bite do when it is used with a clearcasting proc? The same as 25 energy, 50 energy or something in between?

#38 Nelkanor

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Posted 08 July 2011 - 10:50 AM

It depends on your energy state at time of use. It will use the Clearcasting proc to give you a free FB with regards to its initial cost, namely the first 25 energy will be free. From there on, it will use whatever energy you have (up to 25) for additional damage. So, for any energy state over 25, a Clearcasting FB equals to a max energy FB, but costs only 25.

#39 Guest_Aceswild_*

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Posted 11 July 2011 - 02:27 AM

I was talking to a rogue and is there a soft cap for crit rating? I am sitting at a crit rating of 1809. I was wondering if should reforge some of the crit i forged from haste

#40 kalja

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Posted 11 July 2011 - 07:02 AM

Ok i haven't seen anything on this so i will ask. I know for bear tanking you want the highest iLvL you can get with agi on it. would this include replacing some 353/359 pve items for some 371 pvp items till you can replace them with the pve upgreades? i am new to bear tanking and still learning so any and all advice would be great (my toon is US>Steemwheedle Cartel>Kalzan) Also how important is Exp/Hit i know with pally tanking you reforge everything out once you don't have problems with threat is it the same for bears or do you want to cap both since you are needing the hits to land for your procs?




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