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World of Logs Analysis (Help me not suck thread)


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#181 Kitmajere

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 08:58 PM

Gnafronne -- I'm not sure why he is dying. I've had similar issues there, and my inclination is to believe it's an issue with hand of sacrifice, since it has a damage cap.
However, you do have a few options to help him live.
1. He should be pre-shielding himself with an avenging wrath+WoG when at full health via the guarded by the light talent (which he actually does not take, and should). I even glyphed WoG for prenerf work.
2. Your ret pally can sac him there on top of the holy pally hand of sac.
3. He's logged out in ret gear, so I'm not sure what his gearing strat is, but it is viable to gem straight stam here if impales are an issue. It's more important than block cap if that's what's killing you.
4. If you want to be realllly failsafe, one of your hunters could also take out a turtle pet and have it intervene him for this one impale :-p.

I'm sorry for not answering your actual question.

#182 Grigorim

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 09:34 PM

20% aspect buff


What? The buffs are 20% health, 20% attack/casting speed, 20% increased healing, and 20% increased damage. Taking out that buff brings you up to 275k damage taken. This doesn't fully explain your numbers, but it's a start.

#183 lîte

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 12:02 AM

What? The buffs are 20% health, 20% attack/casting speed, 20% increased healing, and 20% increased damage. Taking out that buff brings you up to 275k damage taken. This doesn't fully explain your numbers, but it's a start.


The Aspects buff only reduces the boss's HP and damage done. It does not increase your casting speed, healing nor damage, Power of the Aspects. Its not the same buff that we got in ICC back in the day.

In regards to the original question, you could have a hunter pet intervene to absorb some of the damage as well. That's what we did when we first killed HM Madness. Another things that might work is having a warrior use Rallying Cry and help offset that health that your tank is missing.

#184 Gnafronne

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 10:31 AM

Thanks for useful advices and suggestions (even if I am not sure that we can have both ret and holy Hand of Sacrifice on the tank working together - can anyone confirm?) but my main point is understanding the numbers from the death log and underlying mechanics, because our team tends to change very often so I need a correct awareness of what happens to be able to adapt our strategies safely. As I am not a native english speaker maybe some details would help troubleshooting.

The tank damage taken including overkill and absorbs is 489888, matching a 0.8*0.9*0.9*0.9*840000. Then it seems like the belt + Stay of execution absorbs 56980+ 14568 before the hand of sacrifice absorbs 125502 for a 197050 total absorb matching the death log. (14568 belt absorb is guessed from observed Hand of Sacrifice damage to holy paladin and total absorb, although the tooltip says "absorbs 16200 to 19800 damage")

So what makes me confused is the apparent lack of two 20% damage reduction effects, probably from Ardent Defender and unglyphed Divine Protection because Power of the Aspects was up for sure. However these two protections were gained by the tank according to the log above. So I am certainly missing something but I can't find out what were wrong.

[21:44:42.406] Pilliniãté gains Ardent défenseur from Pilliniãté
[21:44:42.406] Pilliniãté casts Ardent défenseur
[21:44:44.046] Corruption mutée's Empaler fades from Pilliniãté
[21:44:44.390] Pilliniãté gains Protection divine from Pilliniãté
[21:44:44.390] Pilliniãté casts Protection divine
[21:44:44.781] Pilliniãté's Protection divine fades from Pilliniãté
[21:44:44.781] Pilliniãté's Ardent défenseur fades from Pilliniãté
[21:44:44.781] Corruption mutée Empaler Pilliniãté 223745 (O: 69093, A: 197050)

#185 Plide

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 01:52 PM

We're still progressing spine so i don't know how Heroic Madness works but afaik Ardent Defender should save him like Guardian Spirit. Or am i wrong and on Heroic this mechanic doesn't work?

#186 Gnafronne

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 02:11 PM

Ardent Defender "return to life" effect doesn't apply in Heroic Madness. Its damage reduction should still apply however.

#187 Kitmajere

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 02:11 PM

Thanks for useful advices and suggestions (even if I am not sure that we can have both ret and holy Hand of Sacrifice on the tank working together - can anyone confirm?) but my main point is understanding the numbers from the death log and underlying mechanics, because our team tends to change very often so I need a correct awareness of what happens to be able to adapt our strategies safely. As I am not a native english speaker maybe some details would help troubleshooting.

The tank damage taken including overkill and absorbs is 489888, matching a 0.8*0.9*0.9*0.9*840000. Then it seems like the belt + Stay of execution absorbs 56980+ 14568 before the hand of sacrifice absorbs 125502 for a 197050 total absorb matching the death log. (14568 belt absorb is guessed from observed Hand of Sacrifice damage to holy paladin and total absorb, although the tooltip says "absorbs 16200 to 19800 damage")

So what makes me confused is the apparent lack of two 20% damage reduction effects, probably from Ardent Defender and unglyphed Divine Protection because Power of the Aspects was up for sure. However these two protections were gained by the tank according to the log above. So I am certainly missing something but I can't find out what were wrong.

[21:44:42.406] Pilliniãté gains Ardent défenseur from Pilliniãté
[21:44:42.406] Pilliniãté casts Ardent défenseur
[21:44:44.046] Corruption mutée's Empaler fades from Pilliniãté
[21:44:44.390] Pilliniãté gains Protection divine from Pilliniãté
[21:44:44.390] Pilliniãté casts Protection divine
[21:44:44.781] Pilliniãté's Protection divine fades from Pilliniãté
[21:44:44.781] Pilliniãté's Ardent défenseur fades from Pilliniãté
[21:44:44.781] Corruption mutée Empaler Pilliniãté 223745 (O: 69093, A: 197050)



You can have two hands of sacrifice on you. Just one paladin can not have more than one hand on a single person.

I was confused by the casting of DP after Impale fell off, and figured he may have hit it so late that it didn't register as being before the cast, and therefore didn't mitigate it. That still doesn't explain the final missing 0.8.

The difference between belt absorb and tooltip is caused by a tick of burning blood he has right before the impale.

Edit: As a fifth suggestion to help him live, your holy pally can pre-shield him with his mastery by just spamming him during the lull in raid damage prior to the corruption. If cds were somehow messed up, our holy pally used to just LoH me pre-impale for a large shield.

#188 lîte

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 03:45 PM

Thanks for useful advices and suggestions (even if I am not sure that we can have both ret and holy Hand of Sacrifice on the tank working together - can anyone confirm?) but my main point is understanding the numbers from the death log and underlying mechanics, because our team tends to change very often so I need a correct awareness of what happens to be able to adapt our strategies safely. As I am not a native english speaker maybe some details would help troubleshooting.

The tank damage taken including overkill and absorbs is 489888, matching a 0.8*0.9*0.9*0.9*840000. Then it seems like the belt + Stay of execution absorbs 56980+ 14568 before the hand of sacrifice absorbs 125502 for a 197050 total absorb matching the death log. (14568 belt absorb is guessed from observed Hand of Sacrifice damage to holy paladin and total absorb, although the tooltip says "absorbs 16200 to 19800 damage")

So what makes me confused is the apparent lack of two 20% damage reduction effects, probably from Ardent Defender and unglyphed Divine Protection because Power of the Aspects was up for sure. However these two protections were gained by the tank according to the log above. So I am certainly missing something but I can't find out what were wrong.

[21:44:42.406] Pilliniãté gains Ardent défenseur from Pilliniãté
[21:44:42.406] Pilliniãté casts Ardent défenseur
[21:44:44.046] Corruption mutée's Empaler fades from Pilliniãté
[21:44:44.390] Pilliniãté gains Protection divine from Pilliniãté
[21:44:44.390] Pilliniãté casts Protection divine
[21:44:44.781] Pilliniãté's Protection divine fades from Pilliniãté
[21:44:44.781] Pilliniãté's Ardent défenseur fades from Pilliniãté
[21:44:44.781] Corruption mutée Empaler Pilliniãté 223745 (O: 69093, A: 197050)


The way it looks here is that his CDs faded before the Impale even went off. Could be me not reading it right as it is really early. The typical CD rotation I've used while tanking is typically DP on every platform and rest in this order:

1st: Dream, DP
2nd: Guardian, DP
3rd: AD, DP, Rallying Cry
4th: Guardian, DP, Hunter Pet Intervene

The list above has worked for us on the 10 kills we have on HM Madness.

#189 Capstone

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 12:00 AM

I am fairly certain that Ancestral Fortitude and Justification do not apply to Impale (they affect only white damage). It also seems likely that he pressed Divine Protection too late and the damage reduction did not actually apply in time. Hand of Sacrifice absorb is capped at caster's health as well, so it isn't simply 30%. Applying the appropriate damage reductions:

20% aspect buff
20% ardent defender
10% sanctuary

840K * .8 * .8 * .9 = 484K before Hand of Sacrifice and other absorbs kick in, which agrees pretty closely with what you saw. Hope this understanding of the mechanics helps in addition with the numerous suggestions given by the other posters.

#190 Gnafronne

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 10:36 AM

It seems to me that Ancestral Fortitude and Justification do apply to Impale. They affect only physical damage, not only white. In this other example (from try 3) where our pally did not hit any protection cooldown for some reason we got a perfect match : 840000*0.8*0.9*0.9*0.9 = 221173 + 262257+6458. In many logs that kind of maths allows us to predict exact damage.

[21:35:59.781] Pilliniãté gains Jugement reporté from Pilliniãté (Remaining: 6458)
[21:36:00.156] Corruption mutée casts Empaler on Pilliniãté
[21:36:00.171] Pilliniãté gains Robustesse ancestrale from Moïrah
[21:36:04.562] Corruption mutée's Justification is refreshed by Pilliniãté
[21:36:04.984] Pilliniãté's Jugement reporté fades from Pilliniãté (Remaining: 0)
[21:36:04.984] Moïrah's Robustesse ancestrale fades from Pilliniãté
[21:36:04.984] Corruption mutée Empaler Pilliniãté 221173 (O: 262257, A: 6458)

Maybe there were something bad that night with latency issues because there were two examples of Ardent Defender not applying 20% reduction properly (try2, try4). However Ardent Defender provided expected reduction in some logs as for Divinix here.

#191 Ozzmar

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 01:26 PM

Hey guys,

I'm actually posting this on behalf of my wife (who doesn't have her own account). We just finished Heroic Madness (25) last night, and she finished the evening around 50k DPS. Our raid leader wasn't dissatisfied with that, but she wants to improve as we have others pushing 70k and up in some cases.

I tried providing general tips like lining up cooldowns with when DW begins casting Cataclysm, using Judgement to travel between mobs faster, etc, but I'm quite ignorant when it comes to the nitty-gritty of Paladin DPS.

Would anyone mind giving this log a quick once-over and see if there's anything glaringly wrong here?

Log: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Armory: Pozita @ Magtheridon - Game Guide - World of Warcraft

Thanks in advance guys!

#192 Gnafronne

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 04:16 PM

Ozzmar, Looking at her Madness log and her Yor'sahj one:

- Pozita's inquisition uptime tends to be very low (resp 29 and 55%), and that should be a huge loss. Top paladins manage to keep it in the 90-100% uptime. Maybe some mod (can use something like NeedToKnow) to properly track it would help a lot.

- Cooldowns are not used as often as they should. In a fight like Madness it is possible that the Raid Leader asks dps to hold their colldowns for specific targets, so take this point carefully. However there is no reason to use only one GotaK (5min cooldown), or to spend more than 5 minutes without any use of the AW/Zeal/trinket combo (2 min cooldown) during a 14.5 minutes fight like she did. Once the fight is well-knwown, it is generally possible to plan how to maximize their use (using them more often and / or at the best time).

- In every aoe situation, spellweave does more damage than anything. Try to trigger as much as possible of it using Divine Storm and Holy Wrath. Note that consecration does not trigger spellweave effect and can only be used as usual for its direct damages. Even a single target attack having about 1/3 chance to hit 9 things for 20k is 60k average extra-damage so it is pretty unsure that consecration(~1.3K damage per second per target * 10s in your log) is better depending of how long you expect the bloods to live and stay in your zone.

- Try to get the more benefit of the cataclysms. If possible twist a little your rotation just before it in order not to have to refresh your inquisition during its duration, just like we should do before AW/Zeal. If AW/Zeal were not needed for other targets, be sure to use them at this time.

- If extra dps is not especially needed on the first mutated corruption, cooldowns should be used during the prepot, even if the trinket has no stacks yet.

#193 Calefax

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 09:46 PM

You can have two hands of sacrifice on you. Just one paladin can not have more than one hand on a single person.


This is not true in the case of sac. If you have one paladin cast sac on a target and then a 2nd paladin casts sac on that same target shortly after, then the old sac will be removed before the new one is applied. We specifically tested for this in my guild when figuring out our tank cds for H-Madness:

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#194 Sweettnes

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 07:36 PM

Hey guys,

I'm a retribution pally (have been since tbc) and I'm just looking to see if there is anything I can do to improve my dps output, if there is anything I'm doing wrong, etc.

WoW armory: Sweettnes @ Aggramar - Game Guide - World of Warcraft

WoL parse: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

I decided to link a parse from a 25 man H-Ultrax run, considering that is the fight with the least amount of movement in DS.


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#195 Exemplar

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 08:57 PM

I'm a retribution pally (have been since tbc) and I'm just looking to see if there is anything I can do to improve my dps output, if there is anything I'm doing wrong, etc.


Remember the OP - What do you think is wrong with which we can assist?

Coming at this from a completely blind approach, since you don't specify:
Your hit and expertise are further over cap than is necessary with reforging. Since you appear to prefer Crit>Haste, a quick run through wowreforge.com's default settings for paladin shows you could get precisely 961 Hit and be only 1 over cap at 482 Expertise. It also looks like it can transfer some of your Crit and Haste to further Mastery. Juggling useless (over cap) stats to useful ones are free DPS.

You're also missing the socket bonus (20 Str) on your belt.

Ultraxion cannot be hit by ground effects such as Consecration. Skip it. This should also mean you don't need to use DP twice on that fight as without Cons mana should be a complete non-issue. It's unlikely this was preventing the cast of other attacks, but you could earn back fractions of a second if they were clipping another ability - or I could be wrong and you get 3 more real attacks in the fight.

I was going to question Inquisition up-time, same with Battle Shout (it and Horn of Winter only account for ~89% up-time for some reason), but I suspect I found an issue when looking at your Heroic Will. According to the log you had 63.4% up-time on Heroic Will. Nearly 2/3 of the fight you were phased out?!?

No, not really. This is because the log often did not see it wear off, so tracked the buff as active until it did see it expire much later. I believe someone other than you captured the log, therefore actions which took place while you were under Heroic Will and they were not (and vice versa) are not captured by the log. The log won't see what's happening in whichever realm (twilight or normal) the logger is not present. As such portions of the fight are not accurately captured. Missing info means some of you 'doing things right' are almost guaranteed to be lost, and it's possible that possible instances of 'you're doing it wrong' (if there are any) are also lost.

That said, CS recorded seems reasonable - 4 less than possible if there was no Haste involved. One or two missed by the log and a few lost/delayed due to Fading Light/Hour of Twilight would reconcile the numbers. You still might be able to juice out a few more, and thus more HP.

Judgement may be a bit low - or, again, may have not been recorded. In a 340 second fight you could (theoretically) cast 42.5 Judgement. You only cast 25. AW+Hero means single filler and that filler is always TV, so you naturally lose a few here, but that's only 20 seconds of the fight - so 3-4 lost. A few may have been invisible to the log. Remember with 4 piece Judgement generates HP (more TV!), so this is a big loss. Say you lost only 12 Judge during the fight (the rest being present but not captured by the log or due to Hero-AW-Zeal phase) - that's still 4 extra TV. Napkin math of averaging over 50k per TV means about 200k lost, which in 340 seconds is 588 DPS!

You had a string of AoW refreshes during your second (non-Hero) Zealotry. During these 20 seconds (7:54:44 to 7:55:04) you did not cast a single HoW or Exo. Unless under Hero and pushed to a sub-3 second CS, you should still be using CS, Filler, Filler (which is actually CS, TV, Filler). I see several DP procs, but not sufficient to produce absolutely no HoW or Exo casts. Make sure you fill the empty GCD. Even if it's not a full 1.5 seconds available, use an ability and delay the next CS by a fraction of a second.

I will say at 10 Fading Light you got extremely unlucky (especially compared to Ahora with only 3). Lost time is lost DPS, even if it's out of your control.

Not to be insulting to your raid members, but other people dying does not help your DPS. Shorter fights have higher DPS - at the very least because a higher percentage of the fight occurs during buffs such as Hero. Especially on 25man server lag can be a great issue - trying to wait until the last fraction of Fading Light/Hour of Twilight for one extra attack and extra DPS can lead to death, which is no DPS. Recommend your friends click at least 1 second in advance - possibly even more based on their own experience. People with issues (generally lower end computers) should also crank down graphics to as low as possible on this fight - they may be amazed how much 'lag' disappears, making their role (healer, DPS, or tank) far easier.

If you can raise points where you think you may be playing below your capability, we can try to examine them for you.
Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

#196 omni101

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 02:21 PM

I have been playing ret paladin for all of DS. My gear ilvl is 400 atm and i feel i should be putting out more more dps/ damage done on boss fights. I think it may be my use of CD's during the fights but I would like a sanity check on my strat as a ret paladin.
Addons I use: CLC ret
World of logs link: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
WoW Armory link: Titusx @ Shandris - Game Guide - World of Warcraft
Raid bot link: Titusx - Epeen Bot - RaidBots - Web Tools for WoW Nerds
My toons name is titusx on US-Shandris with Chapter 13.
I have an older computer but a pretty good internet connection
My FPS is 60 at idle and only bogs down during Yorsha.
My ping is 60-90 ms.

I use wow reforger and will keep my hit as close as possible to 8% and will dump my extra points into exp if I cant put it in mastery, crit, haste.
I prepot at 2 sec's prior to each fight.

My strat for Heroic Morchak, Prepot, when he spilts i use GoAK, wait 10sec's then Zeoltry and AW. During his black phase I use exerosim and Judgement. If low on health i will bubble during a stomp but avoid it of possible. After each earth phase I will use AW and Zealotry if off CD. When we use Hero/time warp i will pot again.
Here is my raid bot link for Heroic Morchok: Titusx - Epeen Bot - RaidBots - Web Tools for WoW Nerds
Here is my World of log for Heroic Morchok: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis


My start for Heroic Yorsha, , Prepot, then right after teh pull i use judgment to make use of long arm of the law, followed by GoAK , AW and zealotry, I am used to kill the slimes and will stay in until the slime is almost at the outer edge of the pool of water in the center of the room.I will use AW and Zealotry after each slime is down, if the raid needs help with purple adds i will use whirlwind, concentration and holy wrath and keep Yorsha as my main target to use Templar's verdict when I have 3 holy power.
Here is my raid bot link: Titusx - Epeen Bot - RaidBots - Web Tools for WoW Nerds
Here is my World of logs link: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

My start for Heroic Warlord Zon. Prepot, then use judgement and GoAK, I dont use Zealotry or AW until the Black phase, My job during black phase is to kill 2 eye's and then the claw. Rinse and repeat.
Here is my raid bot link: Titusx - Epeen Bot - RaidBots - Web Tools for WoW Nerds
here is my World is logs link: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis


My strat for Heroic Hagra, Prepot, save my cd's until the first forst or lightning phase is over, then i use all 3 GoAK, AW, And zealotry, I do wait 10 second in between GoAK is first cast adn AW and Zealorty, I pot again during Hero/time warp. One not during frost phase i will not use XXX when i have 3 holy power and use crusader strike instead to get the ice down.
Here is my Raid bot link: Titusx - Epeen Bot - RaidBots - Web Tools for WoW Nerds
Here is my World of logs link: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

My strat for Heroic Ultra, Prepot, use Goak, wait 10 seconds use AW ans zealotry, the group wil hero/time warp right off the bat. I am in one of the groups to soak a twilight and typically have to stay in a total of 2 twilight during the fight. I use my Devin shield and Devin protection for the 2 i stay in for. I use my pot during time loop towards the end of the fight.
Here is my Raid bot link: Titusx - Epeen Bot - RaidBots - Web Tools for WoW Nerds
Here is my World of logs link: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

My start for Normal Madness, I Use GoAk and Zealotry and AW for the first mutated corruption along with hero/time warp and then use it each time it is off CD for the other mutated corruptions. I will use GoAk again during the last phase after the two elemental s are down and then we time warp again I use another pot. I was that I may be able to increase my dps if i use my CD's during cataclysm so ill give that a shot also.
Here is my raid bot link: Titusx - Epeen Bot - RaidBots - Web Tools for WoW Nerds
Here is my World of logs link: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

And help on my basic strat or strat on a specific fight would be appreciated.

#197 Swannie

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 06:32 AM

Hi all,

I recently got switched from raiding as holy into ret to fill in our roster needs. The mods I'm currently using are DBM and CLCRet. I am currently lacking in dps for the gear that I have compared to our other dps. I was hoping someone could point out a few things I am probably doing something terribly wrong. I am fairly certain I am misusing my CDs and some kinks in my rotation as well as picking the wrong times to conc. I picked up quite a few upgrades later on during the raid, I was about ilvl404.

My armory -Alesso @ Korgath - Game Guide - World of Warcraft

My logs for tonight's Yor'shaj World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Thanks for your help.

#198 Exemplar

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 12:57 PM

Honestly, Yor is an awful fight to try to use for improvement. Plenty of movement from boss to slimes and periods of single-target vs AOE on adds. Extra mechanics which mask important items. Movement will mess with average ability usage and Inq up-time comparisons. Single vs AOE mess up CS comparisons, as you could use DS when there are only 3 targets (no HP), or CS when there are 4+ - items very hard to determine from a log.

If you're actually struggling (you weren't lowest DPS and are very close to another Ret), then try to grab a fight like Ultrax which (barring the phase mechanic) is pretty Patchwerk. Just make sure you're the one to capture the log, otherwise when the logger goes inside and you're out they don't capture numbers (I've seen this skew Inq horribly).
Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

#199 omni101

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 01:18 AM

Hi all,

I recently got switched from raiding as holy into ret to fill in our roster needs. The mods I'm currently using are DBM and CLCRet. I am currently lacking in dps for the gear that I have compared to our other dps. I was hoping someone could point out a few things I am probably doing something terribly wrong. I am fairly certain I am misusing my CDs and some kinks in my rotation as well as picking the wrong times to conc. I picked up quite a few upgrades later on during the raid, I was about ilvl404.

My armory -Alesso @ Korgath - Game Guide - World of Warcraft

My logs for tonight's Yor'shaj World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Thanks for your help.


Alesso,
First I would reforge , looks like you can gain 21 point in cirt if you do.

Second as far as the Yor fight is looks great, but your dps can be improved by a better AOE.

When you need to AOE due to adds I would change your seal to seal of righteousness and cast DS keep Yor as your main target to cast TV when you get 3 HP.
Compare the 2 fights listed.
the first one has a DPS of 43.4 k (ilvl 400)
and the second one (yours) is a DPS 41.1k (ilvl404)
The major difference between the 2 is DS and seal of righteousness, both aoe abilities. It is actually a dps gain of ~4.6k.
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis (titusx)
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis (alesso)
You can do a side by side compression on raidbots.com
CompareBot! - RaidBots - Web Tools for WoW Nerds

Hope that helps.




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