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World of Logs Analysis (Help me not suck thread)


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#21 eternalwhitemoon

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Posted 03 July 2011 - 04:36 PM

This is not for me, but for my guildie, a prot paladin.

You see, he's just...terrible at threat. His threat is just so weak (especially AOE/add threat, but beginning threat is janky too). This presents kind of a big problem when we have a warrior and a DK in the raid--there really just aren't enough Salvs to go around.

I don't really have a huge issue with healing him, though he does seem to take a little more damage than our bear. I'm concerned about his chronic lack of decent threat. He says he reads Paladin forums and such, but I just don't see how Paladin threat could be this bad.

Rogosh @ Cho'gall - Game - World of Warcraft Here is his Armory.

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis Here are our logs. This is a chronic issue, so I didn't feel it was appropriate to link just one report.

My guildies have been discussing the situation and we think it might be a rotation issue, but none of us can figure out exactly what he's doing wrong or what he should be doing.

We did notice he likes to burn DP/Inq/AW a few to several seconds before the pull, wasting time on those CDs. We already chide him about that.

Thanks in advance for anything you can provide!

#22 Charybdis

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Posted 04 July 2011 - 02:36 AM

This is not for me, but for my guildie, a prot paladin.

You see, he's just...terrible at threat. His threat is just so weak (especially AOE/add threat, but beginning threat is janky too). This presents kind of a big problem when we have a warrior and a DK in the raid--there really just aren't enough Salvs to go around.

I don't really have a huge issue with healing him, though he does seem to take a little more damage than our bear. I'm concerned about his chronic lack of decent threat. He says he reads Paladin forums and such, but I just don't see how Paladin threat could be this bad.

Rogosh @ Cho'gall - Game - World of Warcraft Here is his Armory.

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis Here are our logs. This is a chronic issue, so I didn't feel it was appropriate to link just one report.

My guildies have been discussing the situation and we think it might be a rotation issue, but none of us can figure out exactly what he's doing wrong or what he should be doing.

We did notice he likes to burn DP/Inq/AW a few to several seconds before the pull, wasting time on those CDs. We already chide him about that.

Thanks in advance for anything you can provide!


First thing I'd say is take a look at Righteous Fury since it's easy to forget about as a pally. After that he should make sure he's constantly using abilities. Perhaps have him look at the prot thread then go over his rotation with him on a target dummy or something. Nowadays a tank's DPS is a decent indicator of threat, so having him work on the DPS part should help quite a bit.

#23 Meloree

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Posted 04 July 2011 - 04:14 AM

This is not for me, but for my guildie, a prot paladin.

You see, he's just...terrible at threat. His threat is just so weak (especially AOE/add threat, but beginning threat is janky too). This presents kind of a big problem when we have a warrior and a DK in the raid--there really just aren't enough Salvs to go around.

Rogosh @ Cho'gall - Game - World of Warcraft Here is his Armory.

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis Here are our logs. This is a chronic issue, so I didn't feel it was appropriate to link just one report.

My guildies have been discussing the situation and we think it might be a rotation issue, but none of us can figure out exactly what he's doing wrong or what he should be doing.


It's definitely a rotation issue. I took a look at his logs and compared them to mine on a couple of fights - not for DPS, but for ability usage. His autoattack abilities (autoattack, Seal of Truth procs, and Censure ticks) comprise 36.6% of his damage done on a recent Atramedes fight. By comparison, mine were at 28%. His CS usage, especially, is low, accounting for ~20% of damage done on that parse, when it should be ~30% in general. Essentially, your prot paladin needs to learn to be pushing CS on every other button press, and not getting distracted by Grand Crusader procs. It has a follow-on effect on all his other damage.

From that Atramedes kill (6:12) compared to my most recent (4:55), I had 64 CS uses, and Rogash had 46. I had 23 ShoR hit/crits, Rogash had 20. I used WoG once, Rogash did not (just for more reference on HP opportunity cost). The times don't directly correlate, obviously, there'll be an extra air phase in there for your kill. But on a longer kill, his ability usage should have been greater than mine to some degree, regardless. I don't claim to have played perfectly on that kill, either - it was just the most recent, and I picked Atramedes primarily because it's solotanked, and therefore easy to pick numbers out of.

EDIT: Glyph of CS is more damage than Glyph of Judgement. It's minor, the real problem is in rotation. But I thought I should at least look at the armory.

#24 adamb10

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 04:33 PM

Ok time for me to bite at this. I basically got kicked from 1 guild due to performance and declined from another due to DPS. I know Im doing something wrong.

Heres a log for a ragnaros kill (ignore that it says its a wipe, it isnt): World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
Heres another for a Shannox kill: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

I'm not sure what Im doing wrong. I know my gear is properly gemmed and I use a reforge calculator to make sure I'm good on my stats. I also use CLCRet for the rotation. I'm not a clicker (for the rotation anyway). I'm really just not sure anymore. Can anyone me put my DPS where it needs to be?

Thanks. :)

#25 Calefax

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 07:43 PM

I don't see any issue with your gear, gemming, enchanting, or reforging. That all seems good. I'm sure you know Landslide is a better choice than Avalanche, but maybe you don't want to spend the extra gold on a weapon that will presumably be replaced very soon. Your dps will suffer for it, but not enough to warrant a gkick.

One small issue I see is with your prime glyphs. If you have so much expertise that you can't make use of the seal of truth glyph, then crusader strike is a much better choice than judgment. That's a very easy thing to fix.

As for your parses, I took a good look at your Shannox parse, as that one has less funny business going on than Ragnaros. There are a few things that I noticed:

Use your cds as often as possible
Your kill was 7 mins 24 seconds, and in that time you used AW + zealotry 3 times each and goak once. In a 7:24 fight, you should be able to use AW/zealotry 4x each, and goak twice. That is quite a bit of extra damage you missed out on. Remember that it's better to use your cds as often as possible and NOT line them up with bloodlust if doing so means that you can use them an extra time.

Hit the boss more!
I compared your Shannox kill to my most recent one (World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis), and the thing that immediately stuck out was usage of exorcism. In my 6:07 kill, I had 24 casts of exorcism to your 13. At first I thought you just had bad RNG, but then I looked at your melee swings. In my kill I had 8 MORE melee swings than you did, despite my kill being 1 min 17 seconds FASTER than yours. Obviously that alone is a decent dps difference, but it's compounded by the fact that melee swings proc art of war, which is at least part of the reason why I have so many more exo casts than you. There is probably a haste disparity here between you and I, but I can't see it being significant enough to explain the numbers here.

This issue is further confirmed by our holy power gains from CS. I had 109 hp gained to your 94, again despite dpsing the boss for over a minute less. CS should pretty much always be the first button you press when it's available, unless you already have a full hp bar or you need to refresh inq.

Try not to rely on Divine Shield
I noticed you use divine shield twice during your kill. While it's great for getting you out of sticky situations, don't forget that using it comes with a 50% damage reduction while it's active. You really shouldn't have needed to use it on Shannox at all, let alone twice.

I'm not sure what you are doing that is causing you to not be dpsing for a significant amount of time, but I would say that is your #1 issue from what I see here.

#26 adamb10

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Posted 16 July 2011 - 12:35 AM

Yeah I've had bad RNG on weapons.

As for the boss I mostly stuck to the two doggies and only switched to the boss when the doggies were trapped. I dont know if thats reason for the difference. (I unfortunately cannot get WoL to show only my damage on Shannox and not the doggies or vice versa).

I did bubble when the dog that attacks random people (rageface I think?) got on me since we were sometimes having issues with dps dying on him.

I did look at CLCRet though and changed the rotation around in it. My limited theorycrafting on a test dummy showed a 1200 DPS gain with the CLCRet change. I do have other logs for Baleroc but I died @ 30% so it's not really a good boss to use.

I think I need to hit up Firelands with the change I made to CLCret and see the difference in a raid.

Thanks. :)

#27 Guest_AggelosSWC_*

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 03:50 PM

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

My Armory - Aggelos @ Area 52 - Game - World of Warcraft

Here is a log of my guilds Rag kill last week. Now my problem is I am consistently down near the end of the list dps wise and it is making me sad. What am I doing wrong? At the start of fights I am normally in the top 5 during my cooldown bursts but i normally end around the 18-21k range. Most others are ending in the 23-30k range (yes I know hunters,mages,dks, etc but how cna I close the gap?)

According to stateofdps.com, ret dps is still middle of the road but the average is posted below.

Paladin - Retribution 26313 24086 1242 87 2339

So if the average dps is 26k and the median is 24k why am I only breaking the 20k barrier on most fights? Any help would be greatly appreciated!

#28 GlacialRet

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Posted 21 July 2011 - 05:57 PM

I am casual raiding guild (1-2 nights a week) and my DPS is on par with others in my guild but probably not where it should be. I use this site to stay updated, use CLCRet for my rotation, use WoWreforge.com, and use AW/Zeal/IoY together (macro).

My armory Glacial @ Blade's Edge - Game - World of Warcraft
Here is our last raid log. World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

This was our guild first Nef kill and also guild first TAC kill so I haven't had access to a lot of BiS gear. I won the shoulders from Halfus (finally) this week so I still used my ilvl 353 ZA shoulders for the first two fights. Once we kill Cho'gall we plan to move on to Firelands so I want to ensure I am doing optimized DPS.

Thanks in advance for any assistance you can provide.

#29 Fancy_pants

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Posted 21 July 2011 - 10:05 PM

I need some help healing in phase 2 on heroic beth'tilac. Top parses show that the majority of healing in phase 2 comes from holy radiance. Here is the current highest HPS paladin parse, selecting only phase 2: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Here is my best phase 2 parse so far: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

His armory: Zodiacc @ Ysera - Game - World of Warcraft
My armory: Fancypants @ Stonemaul - Game - World of Warcraft

You'll notice that while our overall phase 2 HPS is close (his is just under 35000, mine is 32320), he is making more efficient use of his healing spells, relying much less on Divine Light. Here is a breakdown of our spell usage.

I'm most interested in trying to figure out how his holy radiances did about 600k more healing than mine when he cast the spell just one more time than me (7 as opposed to 6). He had one thousand more ticks than me, yet I have more haste than him.

Any comments are greatly appreciated.

#30 aggixx

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Posted 24 July 2011 - 07:46 AM

I'm most interested in trying to figure out how his holy radiances did about 600k more healing than mine when he cast the spell just one more time than me (7 as opposed to 6). He had one thousand more ticks than me, yet I have more haste than him.

Any comments are greatly appreciated.

Especially in a scenario like Beth'tilac with consistent long-term AoE damage, Glyph of Divine Favor should significantly increase your healing done by Holy Radiance because it affects a full 2 HRs if you active them together.

#31 Calefax

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Posted 25 July 2011 - 10:12 PM

@Aggelos:

Looking at your armory, I noticed you are missing two enchants, but I presume that's because you recently upgraded those pieces and at this point I'm guessing you didn't even have your current gloves/bracers when the rag kill happened. I also noticed you are using 2pc T11 and 1pc T12. I don't have any heard math to back this claim up, but personally I feel like it's not worth losing 4pc T11 until you have at least 2pc T12. Maybe you still used 4pc T11 for your Rag kill and this point is irrelevant.

As for the log itself, I think there are two major sources of your dps slightly lacking for you gear level:

CD Usage
You easily could have had an extra round of AW/Zealotry. 4 casts of each in a 9:52 fight is not optimal.

AOE Usage
This is 100% specific to Ragnaros, but when your raid collapses in order to deal with the seeds/adds in p2, it is definitely worth swapping to Seal of Righteousness given the number of adds present (especially in 25m). If you do it right, then you can swap to SoR, divine storm all of the adds 3 times (depending on your raid's dps), and swap back to SoT without ever letting censure drop off of Rag. Having the mana for consecration at this part is super useful as well. I noticed in your log that you kept SoT the whole time and only divine stormed 3x in total. This doesn't seem optimal to me.

One last thing...as far as I'm aware, stateofdps only tracks the people who RANK on world of logs (meaning, top 200 of each spec). The average of the top 200 players is not necessarily going to be what your personal average is, especially considering that many of those top 200 are probably more geared than you are.

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Posted 26 July 2011 - 06:41 PM

@Calefax

Yes I did just get them at the end of our raid week and I just didn't get a chance to get them enchanted. That has been rectified as of last night so I am ready for this weeks round of raiding.

I do still have all my old set because I wasn't 100% sure on this fact either but I figured the sheer increase in stats from the ilvl 359 to 378 would compensate a little more.

Do you normally pop cool downs every time that they are up? I always try to use both AW and Zeal together as Extemplar recommends but I seem to never be able to use HoW during that time seeing as it is mostly CS > TV > CS >TV. Should I take an extra second and stick with the CS > filler > filler > CS? Even if it makes me miss a CS? I always try to hit CS anytime it is up no matter what unless I already have 3 HP. Is that incorrect? From reading the ret thread it seems the CS filler filler is optimum but seems weird to me to wait on something to come off cooldown to use as a filler.

Well if that is the case it is still sad since even the ranked characters do not seem to be able to compete with what is the average dps of some other classes so I end up sitting more then I would like because Im not pulling the dps of hunters/mages/dks.

#33 Calefax

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Posted 26 July 2011 - 09:38 PM

I'm not 100% sure on the T11 thing, as it's hard to quantify the dps increase of 4pc T11. Personally I am not going to drop my 4pc until I get 2pc T12, at which point I will also swap in the Ruthless gloves (don't have access to 391 stuff yet). Regardless this is a different discussion, as it did not apply to you when your log was taken.

I absolutely pop my cds whenever they up under almost all circumstances. The only time you should save them is if doing so will allow you to use them during some sort of burn phase (for example, when Alysrazor is lying on the ground). Ideally you also want to have your cds available for bloodlust, but it's a dps loss to do so if it means that you'll miss out on an extra round of AW/zealotry later in the fight because of it.

The CS --> Filler --> Filler --> CS is definitely the optimal rule, but there are exceptions to the rule. If you have no fillers available and need to wait for CS to come off cd anyway, that doesn't mean that you ALSO wait for a filler to come off cd and hit the filler first so that you can stick to CS --> filler --> filler. In a case like that you would instead be doing CS --> filler --> wait --> CS. Don't think of it as a rotation that you always follow. Think of it as a priority system, with CS being top priority (unless you have 3hp).

So yes, you should always be hitting CS first unless you already have 3HP, but that doesn't mean that you wait for CS to come off cd all of the time either. During zealotry this usually ends up resulting in CS --> TV --> HoW --> CS --> TV --> filler, but you absolutely should be able to get some HoW off. If you're switching to CS --> TV --> CS --> TV during zealotry and skipping HoW all together, then that is another issue. There is nothing about zealotry that suddenly makes CS a 3 sec cd.

#34 Hommus

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 08:13 AM

Hey guys, I'm a holy Paladin in a raiding guild who want to progress faster and at the moment, I'm the weak link on our 10 man healing team. Please give me any advice you can offer as to what spells I should be using more/less as well as gemming and other miscellaneous tips. I've done the research on theory of playing holy so maybe you guys can help me hone putting it into practice.

What my problem may be is that I'm using the wrong spells and being too thrifty with mana and cooldowns. I'll let the more experienced players be the judge of that.

Here's my gear: Hommus @ Saurfang - Game - World of Warcraft
Logs: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

I'll be updating after tonight's raid has been logged. Hopefully some of the research I've been doing will pay off. By the way, any helpful links to resources would be good.

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 12:55 PM

@Calefax

Thanks for the advice! I will try to be a little more liberal with my CD usage perhaps that will help! I will also be able to get my 2pc t12 this week (which will likely cause me to have to switch back to my t11 372 gloves to keep my t11 2pc but I know that needs to stick around till I get the 4pc. Thanks again!

#36 climaximus

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 03:21 PM

Hi - I was hoping that someone could give me some advice on my rotation and if I'm doing anything wrong.

Here is my World of Logs analysis for Majordomo: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Here's a link to my profile: Climaximus @ Cho'gall - Game - World of Warcraft

I use CLCRET to help with my rotation but something seems a bit off to me. Should I be using HoW more often? When I pop wings and I'm using Inq with Zealotry, it seems I never get off as many HoW as I should because TV is always taking priority over it. Is this correct? The same goes for Exo procs. It seems like I'm doing more DPS from TV but am I losing out on DPS by not using all of my HoW? Any input would be greatly appreciated.

#37 Exemplar

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 04:50 PM

Hey guys, I'm a holy Paladin in a raiding guild who want to progress faster and at the moment, I'm the weak link on our 10 man healing team.

My offspec is Holy and I don't raid it nearly as frequently as Ret, so take this advice with a grain of salt. I know one of my own issues is mana conservation - I tend to be extremely conservative and while I dip low multiple times I'll often end a fight at 50% or more mana.

The goal is to end a fight just when you hit zero mana. If you're regularly running OOM and unable to heal, you're overusing and should go more for efficiency. If you end with more than 20-30% max mana then you're too conservative.

On Baleroc you used 15 Judgement in a 5:45 fight. Judge more. A lot more. It should be your biggest source of mana return. More mana = more healing. Only 38 Holy Shock, max possible would have been around 57. That's a lot of HP not generated. HP means either LoD (or for Baleroc WoG), both zero mana heals. Baleroc specific, even 1 HP WoG on Torment victims means more Vital Spark stacks just for the GCD. As long as your Torment folks don't die because you used a GCD on a small heal, it's useful.

On Rhyolith - less WoG, more LoD. Judge more.

Hi - I was hoping that someone could give me some advice on my rotation and if I'm doing anything wrong.

Your numbers all look reasonable and respectable. No long delays in CS usage or other huge flaws.

Recall that hitting Domo from the front incurs some parries - you lost 6 CS, which is at least 2 TV (more if he parries during Zealotry). Unless you gear past the normal expertise cap this is going to happen and not something about which you should worry.

In response to your question about HoW, in my experience each AW you should generally get off about 2 HoW. A reasonable number of your TV, HoW, and Exo are going to proc DivPurp. This means you will frequently wind up CS, TV, TV, even if HoW is off CD. Otherwise you would use CS, HoW, TV, TV - which delays CS an extra GCD and can lose you the last CS usage under Zealotry. Under Zealotry it's typically CS, TV, TV, or CS, TV, HoW, or CS, TV, Exo (if the HoW or Exo proc DivPurp you can hold it a few seconds to CS, TV, TV with no lost time). Judgement rarely gets a chance, much less HW or Cons.

You had 25 AoW procs, but only used 19. You might lose one or two due to priority during Zealotry, but losing 6 to Zealotry would be unusual RNG. Make sure to use these rapidly so as to not lose fresh procs.

You had 2 applications of Icy Talons and Rampage - even on movement or spread out phases, trying to be in the same general area as other melee could be beneficial. It's rare for a fight to require folks to be a full 40 yds away from others. One time your raid lost Rampage for a full 7 seconds. That's a long time for someone to be that far away from the raid, especially considering that 40 yds is also max healing range. The ideal fight has 0 applications, because you received the buff pre-pull and it remains the entirety of the fight.

On Cooldowns: you used 4 Zealotry, but only 3 AW. Why miss the AW? Until you get 4 T12, macro the two together to ensure no missed CD usage. Not that you have a click trinket at the moment, but the same macro would be the place to put one.

You're presently slightly below hitcap. I would recommend using something such as WoW Reforge Calculator & Optimizer to help correct this via reforging.

In general, you're doing quite well, bordering on great.
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#38 vacor

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 05:28 PM

I'm currently feeling I should be outputting more DPS that i currently am.

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis - Is our guild's logs from baleroc/ Alysrazor/ majordomo last night.

For the 1st Alysrazor fight I was in the flying group, next attempt I was on the ground as normal.

Im seeing my inquistion uptime above 90% for baleroc even 97%, But what else can I Do to be better? Should I prioitize Using divine purpose/art of war procs more?

#39 Exemplar

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 06:59 PM

But what else can I Do to be better? Should I prioitize Using divine purpose/art of war procs more?


Analysed Baleroc, since it's pretty Patchwerk-esque barring stepping left and right a bit.
CS usage good - average 4.28 seconds. This seems on par with CS, Filler, Filler since some filler will be spells and allow you earlier CS than a full 4.5 seconds from 3 melee GCD.

I question the use of Holy Radiance on Baleroc. On a fight with more/AOE raid damage, it can prove useful. On Baleroc only 1 person in your range should be taking damage at any time via Torment. I would like to hope that the very weak healing from your Ret HR isn't the difference between healers keeping a Torment victim alive or not. Skip HR except on fights where it's of great use. That generally gives you enough mana for another Cons. Not huge by any means, but the point is to squeeze out every DPS and one more Cons is more DPS.

Also there was only 1 use of DP. Drop those Cons early - if everything else is on CD don't skip it unless you lack the mana. Early Cons usage means you dip low on mana early, then pop DP in an empty GCD (or a GCD where you want to use Cons but lack mana). You'll then get at least 1 if not 2 more DP in the fight, again permitting more Cons.

There were a few times AoW refreshed before you cast Exo. These did not appear to fall during Zealotry periods, so it wasn't that you had more important buttons to press. Outside of Zealotry if you have 3 HP and AoW, Exo goes before TV. Only once was because you had DivPurp and were pressing TV (since you don't want the Exo to refresh an unused DivPurp).

Wrath totem only had 75% up time. So 25% of the time your spelldamage only had +6% instead of +10%. A Shaman was either dropping totems out of melee range or neglecting totems for a quarter of the fight. Moonkin aura was only 62% and don't see Mind Quickening or Wrath of Air Totem to make up the difference. 5% Spellhaste isn't just GCD reduction, but Censure and Cons ticks. Sounds like possibly your melee and ranged stack spots were further apart than they needed to be.

As you say, Inquisition time seems fine. 95-97% up time is fairly solid considering you have the fight start where you're generating the HP to first invoke it. A fight like Alysrazor with some stretches between druid adds it's not unreasonable for it to drop, but 85% still seems a bit low.

If you're not already, using something such as CLCret or Power Auras could help manage the Exo procs.

In general not seeing problems in managing your own abilities, but the overall raid's positioning and synergy buff uptime could be improved.
Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

#40 climaximus

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 08:48 PM

Thanks Exemplar. Great advice!




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