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Frost DPS | 4.2 Against All Odds


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#21 Royksopp

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 09:46 PM

They hotfixed in the... fix.... for death runes. No more spamming obliterates.

#22 Lithan

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 09:52 PM

What should we aim for as a hit cap? I know the hit cap is 27/24%, but that seems a little unreal to hit. I also know expertise is very crucial.... So, at what percentage would be best to balance both?


you will still be aiming for 8% hit in order to hit the spell-cap (17%, we gain 9% spell hit through our runic empowerment). after that you will aim for 26 expertise. do this and you will never miss (provided you are not standing in front of the boss).

#23 Krabà t

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 10:17 PM

Nice update for Frost finally.
For your Lines about Simularcum.
There are some nice possibilitys to use it, when there is something like Mind Control involved.
Just Debuff a Shadowpriest and tell him to cast Devouring Plague (Devouring Plague - Spell - World of Warcraft).
24 Seconds with an additonal Disease is worth those 20 RP.

#24 Inquizitor

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 10:46 PM

so I've done some testing with the old spec, in frost pres/ and unholy, I I guess it's because of me having 71.72% haste unbuffed, in unholy pres, that I am finding myself sitting idle for a period of time, where as in frost I don't. the numbers are better in frost pres also seeing myself doing about 1-2k more dps there as appose to say 15kish in unholy. Anyone have some thoughts, this is with the 4/31/6 spec ( new spec unholy pres is indeed better! ) was doing way more sustained dps, but sad thing is we are still really RNG based and spike alot, but this spec does help reduce it quiet a decent amount, ( procs are everything =(

#25 Mynou

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Posted 27 April 2011 - 02:25 AM

Neck [Caelestrasz's Will] 1x [Bold Inferno Ruby] Dodge to Hit None H BWD; Nefarian

Should be Dodge to Haste.

#26 nergal119

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Posted 27 April 2011 - 12:09 PM

Target dummy tests (no, not very accurate I know) last night have led me to wonder as to if our current priority system is still accurate. I am running a 2h frost build and had a benchmark of at least 10 million damage done for my tests, with cooldowns ignored (since they would affect either test equally) and performed on the boss dummy in Acherus to eliminate aoe damage.
What I was testing was if I should use those two death runes for an extra obliterate or for a pair of howling blasts. My results, once recount was working again, were that my dps was higher (by about 500) if I ignored blood plague (except for Outbreak) and only used Obliterate if I had an unholy rune free, otherwise frost/death runes would be used for Howling Blast, even if it meant using KM for frost strike.

Now I ask, aside from using the dummy, is there anything that I might be missing with this test? Also, would raid buffs push the Obliterate priority back up, likely due to sunder? Or would it remain similar due to the +Spell Dmg debuff?

#27 Viggers

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Posted 27 April 2011 - 01:39 PM

"Engineering is the top profession given its stackable 480 strength bonus to gloves for 10 seconds every minute (80 strength average passive). Jewelcrafting follows as a second pick with its Bold Chimera gems replacing Bold Inferno Rubies netting 81 additonal strength. Alchemy, Blacksmithing, Leatherworking, Inscription are on par bringing up the rear."

im confused about why engineering is said to be the top proffession given that it is listed here as an 80 strength passive, when JC gives plus 81 STR permanantly. i know +1 STR from JC is nothing massive, but were all here to min-max arent we, and surely JC is better, and engineering on par with BS etc with a +80 STR bonus

#28 Illu

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Posted 27 April 2011 - 01:57 PM

Regarding professions, remember engineering brings other things to the table as well, such as bombs which can be very handy for bursting down adds - really prevalent in this raid tier too - or just on cooldown. It should probably be clarified though.

#29 sp00n

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Posted 27 April 2011 - 02:02 PM

The stat weights for DW seem a bit wonky. Expertise is set to 1.18 and Haste to 1.23, yet the stat priorities are Hit > Expertise > Haste.
If you aim to cap Expertise first, it should be better than any other stat per se, until you reach said cap. Having Haste better than Expertise, but still going for the Expertise cap doesn't make much sense. Especially when you're not GCD capped.


SimCraft shows me similar EP results for my gear, and ironically even with those EP stats I'm still ending up reforging to the Expertise cap - simply because it's the best reforge combination available. But that doesn't mean that I should go for it if there actually were other options (i.e. Haste already present on almost every piece of gear).
So it is more of an coincidence to reach the Expertise cap, and not due to a priority over Haste.



was a bit puzzled on the BiS trinket choices. why exactly is DMC:H no longer BiS? is it because the hit > haste reforging on License to Slay overtakes the DMC:H procs? would like the clarification here.


I second that. Switching out my DMC:H for License to Slay is a DPS decrease for me according to SimCraft (-100).

Stopped Playing


#30 Tsuyah

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Posted 27 April 2011 - 02:06 PM

The reason engineering would be favored is because it cooldown exactly aligns with PoF, so every time you use it, it is worth an extra 96 strength. So instead of 480 str, consider it being worth 576 every minute for 10 seconds. Effectively an average of 96 strength (I know, a terrible way to look at it but that isn't the point). Whereas JC benefits from PoF for only 20 seconds every minute which makes it average out to merely 86.4 str.

#31 Thargos

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Posted 27 April 2011 - 02:48 PM

Including Pillar of Frost to professions calculation would lead to:

Engineering: 80 str -> 96 str
JC: 81 str -> 86,4 str (20% increase 1/3 of the time)
Other professions: 80 str -> 85,33 str (20% increase 1/3 of the time)

But before powerleveling Engineering (which of course one should do if min/maxing) keep in mind that patch 4.2 introduces new trinkets, the strongest of them coming with a 1 minute CD on-use strength increase. As synapse springs lock out your on-use trinkets, this will weaken engineering a lot, as you would definitely use the trinket together with PoF instead of the synapse springs.

So, before Blizz is changing the lock-out-behaviour, save your money

#32 EwokChilli

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Posted 27 April 2011 - 03:10 PM

With 11% haste from gear currently, while in Frost Presence I'm having to wait on runes whenever I miss more than 2 RE procs or HB procs. I feel that because of the reduction of necessary moves (1x OB vs 2x BS) that I'm no longer GCD capped even in FP anymore. I tried DW in UP and I found I was sitting around for 4-5 seconds at times. That is a lot of inactivity and I was a good 2k dps behind being in FP. Obviously anecdotal evidence, but a pretty massive indicator of something being different.

#33 Viggers

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Posted 27 April 2011 - 03:56 PM

im surprised by how low down the trinket list impatience of youth is (the baradin warden one). is this ranking taking into account the on use lining up with PoF? meaning it really has a +1926 STR on use effect, and you can reforge the mastery to haste

#34 Mikedawg

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Posted 27 April 2011 - 04:34 PM

im surprised by how low down the trinket list impatience of youth is (the baradin warden one). is this ranking taking into account the on use lining up with PoF? meaning it really has a +1926 STR on use effect, and you can reforge the mastery to haste


This justification doesn't really apply in the same way that the profession discussion does because other trinkets have procs or aren't proc or strength reliant. The on-use for IOY is horribly underbudget for a 359, and that's why it ranks poorly.

#35 Viggers

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Posted 27 April 2011 - 04:45 PM

i see what you mean. having looked at the other trinkets more closely i see that now. the 346 on the list has a slightly lower +STR bonus but it will proc much more often that once every 2 minutes i assume. suggestion to OP - add a (rough) proc per minute section to the trinkets table?

#36 Titus Pullo

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Posted 27 April 2011 - 05:51 PM

Clearly I need to re-evaluate DM: Hurricane. As well, I've gotten several PMs about the epidemic build. It is only marginally less DPS than a IBT build to the point that the player performance is going to make a much bigger difference than the difference of the two specs. So I'll add on a section about the Epidemic build illustrating the differences between the two.

I do agree with Mhobius that Blizzard does not intend DW to play in UP and we'll likely see a change to fix it.

#37 Dopameany

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Posted 27 April 2011 - 06:29 PM

Just to make sure I'm clear, as I read the priority list, the only time I should be HB'ing is to refresh frost fever, or on a Rime proc. Otherwise it's simply OB or FS, with the refreshment of BP as necessary due to PS. Seems weird that's the only time we would HB, but I guess that's accurate.

The epidemic build option - that's the 4/31/6 w/ 1 point in butchery and 1 in epidemic correct? How viable is a DW spec of 3/31/7, with 2/3 in epidemic and 2/3 in morbidity? Would give some aoe help and seems the 1 unholy wouldn't be much of a waste as long as the boss doesn't move out of it. Just curious.

Great new thread btw.

#38 cbrigaitis

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Posted 27 April 2011 - 06:48 PM

Nice update for Frost finally.
For your Lines about Simularcum.
There are some nice possibilitys to use it, when there is something like Mind Control involved.
Just Debuff a Shadowpriest and tell him to cast Devouring Plague (Devouring Plague - Spell - World of Warcraft).
24 Seconds with an additonal Disease is worth those 20 RP.



I know this use would be limited, infact its probably the only time in a raid you will ever be able to use Simularcum, but, if you were able to pull it off, would the additional disease add to your attacks that do +% dmg per disease that you have? and if so, could you Festering Strike to keep it active?

And for people who read this at a glance and are like me at first "you cant cast that on a friendly target" it's only real application would be on a fight like cho'gall, and in the event that it just so happened that a S Priest got MC'd, and it just so happened that you got to him first, Simularcum, then break him out.

#39 NeuroMedivh

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Posted 27 April 2011 - 06:50 PM

The problem with the IBT build is that it doesn't line up properly. With Epidemic you refresh Blood Plague approximately twice a minute; without, you would do it three times per minute. Assuming Outbreak fills the need for one of those (since we are not GCD capped, it is no loss of DPS to use a GCD on Outbreak), then with the Epidemic build, you would need to cast Plague Strike once every sixty seconds, which lines up with Blood Tap just fine. With IBT build, you'd need to cast Plague Strike twice every sixty seconds, but not 30 seconds apart. You would need to cast it at the 20 and 40 second marks, and IBT would not be off cooldown thus you aren't getting the savings.

You could use one Blood Tap on PS and another on Pillar of Frost, which would maximize your runic savings, but this requires a high degree of micromanagement to be effective, as you would need to link the timing of Pillar to your Diseases and your Blood Tap.

Also, someone mentioned IFP not working properly, I can confirm it. In Unholy or Blood Presence, it is giving no extra RP, therefore as of right now it is worthless if you are using UH Presence.

#40 Tsuyah

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Posted 27 April 2011 - 07:29 PM

The problem with the IBT build is that it doesn't line up properly. With Epidemic you refresh Blood Plague approximately twice a minute; without, you would do it three times per minute. Assuming Outbreak fills the need for one of those (since we are not GCD capped, it is no loss of DPS to use a GCD on Outbreak), then with the Epidemic build, you would need to cast Plague Strike once every sixty seconds, which lines up with Blood Tap just fine. With IBT build, you'd need to cast Plague Strike twice every sixty seconds, but not 30 seconds apart. You would need to cast it at the 20 and 40 second marks, and IBT would not be off cooldown thus you aren't getting the savings.

You could use one Blood Tap on PS and another on Pillar of Frost, which would maximize your runic savings, but this requires a high degree of micromanagement to be effective, as you would need to link the timing of Pillar to your Diseases and your Blood Tap.


You don't have to be using the BT on the PS in order to "cash in" on the savings, so long as you are able to keep your death runes on cooldown so the BT isn't wasted it shouldn't matter at all what you use it for. With the Perma death runes the likelihood of you having no runes available to refresh PS is fairly remote, and with just a little foresight you should be able to at least plan to have one up in the 3 seconds or so before it wears off. In reality, you'll almost never actually use the BT on refreshing PS, its just the easiest analog to compare it to because of the tradeoff - having to use 1 extra PS per minute over an epidemic build.

My only complaint about IBT so far is it is exceedingly hard to actually use those death runes at the right time if you're trying to maximize KM OB because of storing death runes.




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