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Frost DPS | 4.2 Against All Odds


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#501 Chuni

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Posted 07 August 2011 - 04:02 PM

Hi
I have a problem with my 85 frost death knight in that the gear is good talents in right places and rotation is good however during rotation there are periods where i have no runes available or ruinic power to cast anything at all.
Another dk guild member tried me out on dummys using his rotation he uses and came across the same problem, has anyone come across this problem before and/or know what it is i am doing wrong and the solution?

Every Frost DW DK has this problem sometimes, the simple reason is RNG. You can mitigate these RNG problems with more haste, but you can't negate it completely. Well, at least not right now, perhaps in the content yet to come :)

#502 CodeNameSly

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Posted 07 August 2011 - 06:12 PM

Hi
I have a problem with my 85 frost death knight in that the gear is good talents in right places and rotation is good however during rotation there are periods where i have no runes available or ruinic power to cast anything at all.
Another dk guild member tried me out on dummys using his rotation he uses and came across the same problem, has anyone come across this problem before and/or know what it is i am doing wrong and the solution?


Make sure you're keeping Horn of Winter on CD whenever you don't have anything else to do. Also be sure to use Blood Tap often. Beyond that, you'll still be sitting around sometimes, though.

#503 Apøtheøsisx

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Posted 07 August 2011 - 06:30 PM

Hi
I have a problem with my 85 frost death knight in that the gear is good talents in right places and rotation is good however during rotation there are periods where i have no runes available or ruinic power to cast anything at all.
Another dk guild member tried me out on dummys using his rotation he uses and came across the same problem, has anyone come across this problem before and/or know what it is i am doing wrong and the solution?



Also - try taking the time to think about what you're doing... because we are going to have periods where we sit, with RP and Runes on CD - it's okay to sit on a KM proc, and make sure it goes to an Oblit (I know there has been some discussion on this already, about waiting, or just using it on FS) - If I have a KM proc, with Oblit runes on CD, and I'm at full RP - then I'll use the KM proc on my FS - because if I use the KM proc on Oblit, then I'm not getting the RP from it that I would have if I wasn't RP capped...

So - if you're not RP capped, and your oblit runes are on CD, and you have a KM proc - just sit on it - use HoW - make sure diseases are rolling correctly - etc - and then use KM on Oblit - since you'll be sitting later anyways with nothing to do, it's okay to sit on that KM proc for a second or two... Until it comes to a point where your playstyle/gear allows for nearly 0 downtime... (and RNG for that matter)...

#504 Guest_-highwind-_*

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Posted 07 August 2011 - 11:05 PM

The DW normal BiS list contains a reforging error at .
With the given statsweights:
If you reforging Hit to Haste (as suggested) you get (80x1.06+230x1.16+53x1.47) = 429.5 EP from Ratings
If you instead reforge the Crit to Haste you get (133x1.06+138x1.16+92x1.47) = 436.3 EP from Ratings
Not a game-breaking amount but still.

#505 CodeNameSly

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Posted 08 August 2011 - 03:11 AM

So - if you're not RP capped, and your oblit runes are on CD, and you have a KM proc - just sit on it - use HoW - make sure diseases are rolling correctly - etc - and then use KM on Oblit - since you'll be sitting later anyways with nothing to do, it's okay to sit on that KM proc for a second or two... Until it comes to a point where your playstyle/gear allows for nearly 0 downtime... (and RNG for that matter)...


Just wanted to emphasize this. Two seconds is the most I would wait, and even then it's a bit long. The thing is, FS can proc RE, allowing you to Oblit sooner which can proc Rime. Sitting on KM too much will lead to fewer overall attacks and may be a DPS loss. I would only really sit on a KM proc if Oblit is coming off CD in ~1 second.

#506 DaveA50

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Posted 08 August 2011 - 06:35 AM

Just wanted to emphasize this. Two seconds is the most I would wait, and even then it's a bit long. The thing is, FS can proc RE, allowing you to Oblit sooner which can proc Rime. Sitting on KM too much will lead to fewer overall attacks and may be a DPS loss. I would only really sit on a KM proc if Oblit is coming off CD in ~1 second.


2s is way too long to waste. At most I never wait more then .5s. It is better to always be doing something, because like you said, using abilities procs for more abilities to become usable.

Also engineers can use bombs if you can't do anything. Saronites are still off the gcd, but the bolt gun isn't.

#507 Pintofbrew

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Posted 08 August 2011 - 08:43 AM

There is one exception to waiting: if you Obliterate, Rime some times takes a second to register, just like the extra tunic power from chill of the grave. If you immediately proc KM and have runes for an obliterate, wait half a sec to ensure Rime didn't proc. If it did, and no single Rune colour is fully used, you must consider a KM-FS that can't proc a rune versus a KM-OB and a lost HB.

#508 spreizi

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Posted 08 August 2011 - 09:38 AM

Heart of Rage [hc] and Essence of the Ehernal Flame [hc] are the two trinkets with the hightest value, right?
But why is Vessel of Acceleration [hc] BiS instead of Heroicis essence of Ethernal Flame [hc] ?


Essence of the Eternal Flame would be BiS if it was reforged to Hit but for the most part we aren't reforging much to Hit due to the amount on our gear, especially in such large amounts. DW already has more hit then they can reforge away is some situations at 391 ilvl. H-Heart of Rage, H-Essence of the Eternal Flame, and H-Vessel of Acceleration are all very close and really comes down to what caps you need to hit.


For [DW No Restrictions] the values are:
[Heart of Rage] Heroic 2072-2214
[Vessel of Acceleration] Heroic 2026
[Essence of the Eternal Flame] Heroic 2100-2184

Why are [Heart of Rage] Heroic & [Vessel of Acceleration] Heroic BiS? Even if you reforge the mastery to haste, the value for [Essence of the Eternal Flame] Heroic would be 2100. And 2100 > 2026 !

#509 Krabà t

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Posted 08 August 2011 - 10:48 AM

For [DW No Restrictions] the values are:
[Heart of Rage] Heroic 2072-2214
[Vessel of Acceleration] Heroic 2026
[Essence of the Eternal Flame] Heroic 2100-2184

Why are [Heart of Rage] Heroic & [Vessel of Acceleration] Heroic BiS? Even if you reforge the mastery to haste, the value for [Essence of the Eternal Flame] Heroic would be 2100. And 2100 > 2026 !



Do you mind posting your math about that? I don't like the thought about a crit procc, but it still ends up beeing BiS.
Anyway at the moment there is no heroic version of essence available.

#510 spreizi

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Posted 08 August 2011 - 11:55 AM

Last Updated 6/27/2011 By Titus Pullo

A More In Depth Look at Trinkets

This table takes into account things such as Pillar of Frost and how well it will line up with certain trinket procs, reforging to Hit to gain the most value and reforging to Haste to gain the least amount of value (while ignoring reforges to Mastery or Crit) to give a range of values for each trinket and each spec. Darkmoon Card: Hurricane's damage proc makes it difficult to compare in these terms so it is not listed here. Trinkets that don't have ranges don't have any stats to reforge. Trinkets using procs with internal cooldowns (Heart of Rage and Heart of Solace) are calculated using max uptime and are likely rated slightly higher than they will perform actually. This does not currently take Rune of the Fallen Crusader's 15% strength proc into consideration.

[table="head"]Trinkets Value Range | DW 378 | DW 391 | 2H 378 | 2H 391

Heroic | 1833 | 2007 | 1578 | 1689

| 1621 | 1774 | 1395 | 1494

Heroic | 1946-2121 | 2072-2214 | 1742-1866 | 1888-2016

| 1721-1824 | 1833-1966 | 1540-1596 | 1642-1715

| 1878-1984 | 1954-2018 | 1616-1709 | 1734-1840

| 1566-1712 | 1644-1771 | 1386-1497 | 1474-1601

| 1435-1499 | 1511-1549 | 1229-1285 | 1300-1365

| 1345-1457 | 1438-1531 | 1157-1252 | 1235-1342

Heroic | 1543-1636 | 1667-1723 | 1325-1407 | 1411-1506

Heroic | 1927 | 2026 | 1712 | 1824

| 1705 | 1792 | 1515 | 1613

Heroic | 1744 | 1858 | 1494 | 1582 Still not sure on proc
| 1725 | 1864 | 1481 | 1578

Heroic | 1969-2111 | 2100-2184 | 1692-1817 | 1804-1947

| 1744-1869 | 1859-1934 | 1499-1609 | 1597-1725
| 1354 | 1414 | 1186 |1256


I took Titus Pullo´s math for BiS. I have heard that you can upgrade some Items by right-klicking on it with the upgradeshard which drops from HC Bosses (0,5% dropchance). Other Items can upgrade to HC-version at the Vendor.

#511 Tsuyah

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Posted 08 August 2011 - 01:53 PM

You can't upgrade rep items, or most of the valor items (except ranged slot) via the firestones. There is no heroic Essence of the Eternal Flame.

#512 Nelzon

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Posted 08 August 2011 - 04:01 PM

I am still abit confused by the Apparatus maths. To me it do look like it should be higher rated then it actually is. What is it that I am not seeing?c

#513 Dreager_ex

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Posted 08 August 2011 - 05:04 PM

I took Titus Pullo´s math for BiS. I have heard that you can upgrade some Items by right-klicking on it with the upgradeshard which drops from HC Bosses (0,5% dropchance). Other Items can upgrade to HC-version at the Vendor.


This is false, I've already gotten a Firestone and no option was available to me by right-clicking the Firestone to upgrade my item.

#514 dkkarma

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Posted 08 August 2011 - 08:47 PM

I was looking at the trinkets on the bis list and i currently have no heroics available so i was wondering which 2 i should use from the list I have. License to Slay, Darkmoon Card: Hurricane, Apparatus of Khoz'Garoth, and Fury of Angerforge are my current trinkets(all are normal). My question is i'm way over hit cap from the gear i have so would not using License to Slay be a big dps loss. Any help would be appreciate on what 2 to use. Thanks.

#515 Syréène

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Posted 09 August 2011 - 10:06 AM

I was looking at the trinkets on the bis list and i currently have no heroics available so i was wondering which 2 i should use from the list I have. License to Slay, Darkmoon Card: Hurricane, Apparatus of Khoz'Garoth, and Fury of Angerforge are my current trinkets(all are normal). My question is i'm way over hit cap from the gear i have so would not using License to Slay be a big dps loss. Any help would be appreciate on what 2 to use. Thanks.


If you're way over hitcap und only have those few trinkets to chose from I'd probably go with DMC: Hurricane and the Apparatus. If you could get rid of some hit elsewhere then LTS would still be the best choice for you though.
On a sidenote: you can look that up in the OP list easily or run a simulator.

#516 Chummie

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Posted 09 August 2011 - 10:21 AM

I was looking at the trinkets on the bis list and i currently have no heroics available so i was wondering which 2 i should use from the list I have. License to Slay, Darkmoon Card: Hurricane, Apparatus of Khoz'Garoth, and Fury of Angerforge are my current trinkets(all are normal). My question is i'm way over hit cap from the gear i have so would not using License to Slay be a big dps loss. Any help would be appreciate on what 2 to use. Thanks.


This is a difficult question to answer without having seen your profile or even knowing if you're DW or 2H Frost (seeing as Hit over cap still gives DW some dps gains, while 2H Frost gains nothing from it). On a side note, I wanted to try adding DMC: H to the OP's In-Depth Trinket list. Yes, the proc makes it a little hard to model, but not that hard.

Taking PoF into consideration DMC: H provides a passive 342.4 str. Using DW 378 iLv stat weights this gives 1061.44 dps. Easy part done. Now, regarding the proc. The OP states 3 PPM (estimating 250 dps? Should be 350 dps using the median of 7000), but as shown here:

A week or two ago I made a post with evidence suggesting that DMC:Hurricane was undervalued for a 2H Setup.

I was a bit skeptical of trying a DW setup in UH presence. After raiding with it last night, I disliked the free globals but it wasn’t nearly as bad as I thought. Of course, I had my trusty DMC equipped on the raid (still no Heart of Rage/Crushing Weight). My data from last night suggests that you have severely undervalued DMC:H for a DW setup.

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

I didn’t have a great night. I pulled agro off our brand new 346 tank a lot and had some mistakes to boot. Nevertheless I had anywhere from 2.86-5.46 PPM with my DMC:H. In particular the 5.46 PPM encounter renewed my interest in the trinket.

In order to compare the DMC:H to the patchwork style modeling of SimCraft I employed the following methodology.

Over the course of the entire parse from last night (trash + wipes + bosses ie everything) I had 238 procs. I then totaled up the Hits and Crits for FS, OB, White Hits, PS, BS and DS (I had the bright idea of switching my BS bind to DS so I ended up throwing a few BS out). These totaled up to 6,355. Calculating the observe proc percentage and the 95% CI we come up with the following:

Worst Case: 3.2918%
Observed: 3.7451%
Best Case: 4.2415%

Next I used the frequencies from the SimCraft:Parse here:

http://elitistjerks....y_life/p19/#460


Theoritically when tunneling attacks you would expect 159.51 Opportunities to proc per minute. Using our percentages from above this calculates to:

5.25 – 5.97 – 6.77 PPM

Using an average proc of 5,900 (the avg from my Cho’Gal attempt. I didn’t want to take the night average because of the dmg mod on Al’Akir) and the stat weights for 359 DW from this guide:

1450-1521-1599 DPS

Compared to the other trinkets in the list:

HoS – 1352
CW – 1408
HoR – 1500
H.CW – 1592
H. HoR – 1696

Using the worst possible proc %, the DMC:H is better than HoS and CW. Using the best it is 2nd BiS.

I believe you are slightly undervaluing the trinket for 2H, but probably not by much. I may run a 2H setup tonight. If I do I will update the post for 2H.


the trinket procs more often than that. So let's say that DMC: H has 3-7 PPM, giving it an estimated dps of 1411-1878. The median of that is 1644 dps, which puts it a little in front of FoA (median 1639 dps).




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