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Frost DPS | 4.2 Against All Odds


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#41 Navvarro

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Posted 27 April 2011 - 09:16 PM

After seeing that License to Slay was ranked much higher than DMC: Hurricane on the new BiS list for DW, I along with many others was quite skeptical. I spent about an hour at the dummy swapping out the two trinkets and after running multiple trials, (using the recommended IBT spec, stat priorities, rotation, etc) I found that I consistently had about 700-1000 more dps while using DMC.

Has anyone else tried this as well, and if so what results have you seen? I think the best rationale for the DMC outperforming LtS would be attributed to Haste stacking as well as the attack speed buff from UP, thereby increasing the nature damage procs.

#42 Machaera

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Posted 27 April 2011 - 09:48 PM

I spent about an hour at the dummy[...]


Lost me, and hopefully everyone else, right there. Personal experience isn't a valid source for justifications on gear choice.
Math via simcraft, or analysis of logs however..

On an unrelated note, it seems that 4.1 has indeed fixed rune pushback, which means that we will have haste 'caps' that correspond to levels where our rune cooldowns line up with a GCD. Does anyone have any math about this, such as where those points are and what crit and mastery would look like near and between points?

#43 Fulgore0

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Posted 27 April 2011 - 09:52 PM

I'm rather curious about how Lava Spine didn't make it into the normal DW BiS list. It would give more haste(and a little crit) at the loss of some Mastery (after reforging some crit and mastery to hit). Unless we just don't want to stack haste all the time to keep stat divergence from maximizing and losing the synergetic values.

#44 Jander

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Posted 27 April 2011 - 10:08 PM

A week or two ago I made a post with evidence suggesting that DMC:Hurricane was undervalued for a 2H Setup.

I was a bit skeptical of trying a DW setup in UH presence. After raiding with it last night, I disliked the free globals but it wasn’t nearly as bad as I thought. Of course, I had my trusty DMC equipped on the raid (still no Heart of Rage/Crushing Weight). My data from last night suggests that you have severely undervalued DMC:H for a DW setup.

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

I didn’t have a great night. I pulled agro off our brand new 346 tank a lot and had some mistakes to boot. Nevertheless I had anywhere from 2.86-5.46 PPM with my DMC:H. In particular the 5.46 PPM encounter renewed my interest in the trinket.

In order to compare the DMC:H to the patchwork style modeling of SimCraft I employed the following methodology.

Over the course of the entire parse from last night (trash + wipes + bosses ie everything) I had 238 procs. I then totaled up the Hits and Crits for FS, OB, White Hits, PS, BS and DS (I had the bright idea of switching my BS bind to DS so I ended up throwing a few BS out). These totaled up to 6,355. Calculating the observe proc percentage and the 95% CI we come up with the following:

Worst Case: 3.2918%
Observed: 3.7451%
Best Case: 4.2415%

Next I used the frequencies from the SimCraft:Parse here:

http://elitistjerks....y_life/p19/#460


Theoritically when tunneling attacks you would expect 159.51 Opportunities to proc per minute. Using our percentages from above this calculates to:

5.25 – 5.97 – 6.77 PPM

Using an average proc of 5,900 (the avg from my Cho’Gal attempt. I didn’t want to take the night average because of the dmg mod on Al’Akir) and the stat weights for 359 DW from this guide:

1450-1521-1599 DPS

Compared to the other trinkets in the list:

HoS – 1352
CW – 1408
HoR – 1500
H.CW – 1592
H. HoR – 1696

Using the worst possible proc %, the DMC:H is better than HoS and CW. Using the best it is 2nd BiS.

I believe you are slightly undervaluing the trinket for 2H, but probably not by much. I may run a 2H setup tonight. If I do I will update the post for 2H.

#45 Navvarro

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Posted 27 April 2011 - 10:14 PM

Lost me, and hopefully everyone else, right there. Personal experience isn't a valid source for justifications on gear choice.
Math via simcraft, or analysis of logs however..

On an unrelated note, it seems that 4.1 has indeed fixed rune pushback, which means that we will have haste 'caps' that correspond to levels where our rune cooldowns line up with a GCD. Does anyone have any math about this, such as where those points are and what crit and mastery would look like near and between points?


Calm down tiger. Never meant to draw conclusions, only wanted to bring it up as an item of discussion. Its a new patch with lots of changes so alot of the sims may not be accurate. As a matter of fact didn't the sims use to tell us mastery was our best stat for DW Frost, when it turned out haste was superior before the patch dropped?

#46 Asphyxialol

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Posted 27 April 2011 - 10:23 PM

Calm down tiger. Never meant to draw conclusions, only wanted to bring it up as an item of discussion. Its a new patch with lots of changes so alot of the sims may not be accurate. As a matter of fact didn't the sims use to tell us mastery was our best stat for DW Frost, when it turned out haste was superior before the patch dropped?

No, that was largely Consider, who had results that varied from a few people (who all posted in the thread). On all of the SimC and Kahories sims I ran with my personal gear I always got Haste > Crit > Mastery for results, and in game supported this. Up until a certain threshold I noticed FP was superior to UP even with a haste oriented setup (but it was such a low value that anyone in full epics would basically hit it if I remember right).

Consider based his logic on the usage of Frost Presence, where Crushing Weight procs, Bloodlust, etc. would GCD cap us, which is why he strongly recommended the usage of Mastery and Crit over Haste. If I remember correctly he felt Haste would cap us too much in Frost Presence, but not enough to make Unholy Presence viable.

#47 Plok

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Posted 27 April 2011 - 11:27 PM

I get that the recommendations are based on simulations, not conceptual arguments, but can anyone explain why the 4.1 changes should lead to unholy presence overtaking frost for DW? My understanding pre-patch was that unholy was only better for 2h because of the extra RP from MotFW; since it was nearly GCD locked already in frost presence without MotFW, most of the extra RP from picking up MotFW would be wasted without the faster GCD of unholy presence.

Now with the 4.1 changes to DW, it should actually become less GCD locked by freeing up one GCD per rune cycle with an extra obliterate replacing two blood strikes. So assuming a frost presence build really was superior before the patch, I don't see why that should change with 4.1.

#48 Kaejin

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Posted 27 April 2011 - 11:53 PM

Most of the talk about IBT in the last page has basically rediscussed the reasons 4/31/6 gained popularity after the Virulence change in the first place. IBT may sim better and math out better on paper, but in practice it tends to be difficult to utilize to optimum effect due to various conditions.

I'd also like to echo that DW switching to UP just doesn't make any sense since it actually gained free GCDs. Haste stacking rather than mastery stacking isn't going to bring you up to being GCD capped and warrant UP.
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#49 Skraal

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Posted 28 April 2011 - 12:34 AM

Most of the talk about IBT in the last page has basically rediscussed the reasons 4/31/6 gained popularity after the Virulence change in the first place. IBT may sim better and math out better on paper, but in practice it tends to be difficult to utilize to optimum effect due to various conditions.

I'd also like to echo that DW switching to UP just doesn't make any sense since it actually gained free GCDs. Haste stacking rather than mastery stacking isn't going to bring you up to being GCD capped and warrant UP.


Frost testing myself just self buffed I can already feel the constraints of Dw being gcd capped in frost presence. Though we may have freed up a gcd with no blood strikes, instead we get more rime procs and even greater runic generation from using more oblits over blood strikes. So I find they tend to chew up the free gcd we gain and I can only imagine how much worse it will be once a hero kicks in and you are unable to burn through runic without gimping runes and vice versa.

#50 keLston

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Posted 28 April 2011 - 02:40 AM

I'm finding that in some instances of using Army of the Dead, it seems to break the Blood of the North passive and turn the Death Runes back into Blood Runes with apparently no way to turn them back without respeccing back and forth.

#51 Dopameany

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Posted 28 April 2011 - 02:59 AM

I'm finding that in some instances of using Army of the Dead, it seems to break the Blood of the North passive and turn the Death Runes back into Blood Runes with apparently no way to turn them back without respeccing back and forth.


This also happens when /reload ui'ing sometimes. A spec back and forth or a logout and back in is the way to go. I submitted a ticket - awaiting response.

#52 Shalance

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Posted 28 April 2011 - 04:41 AM

This also happens when /reload ui'ing sometimes. A spec back and forth or a logout and back in is the way to go. I submitted a ticket - awaiting response.


I talked with a GM about this issue. He stated that the Dev team is aware of the issue and is close to a solution. Take that for what it's worth.

#53 optional22

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Posted 28 April 2011 - 05:20 AM

I got a weird bug today mid raid where all my runes magically reset to full bars. I looked at ERW, and it was still up. I could use the runes like normal (they did not regenerate via Frost Strikes when I wasn't looking, that's for sure). It happens once on V&T. Our WoL reports bugged out and got cleared, so I can't even look in the logs.

Anyone have the same issue?

#54 phete

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Posted 28 April 2011 - 08:09 AM

Target dummy tests (no, not very accurate I know) last night have led me to wonder as to if our current priority system is still accurate. I am running a 2h frost build and had a benchmark of at least 10 million damage done for my tests, with cooldowns ignored (since they would affect either test equally) and performed on the boss dummy in Acherus to eliminate aoe damage.
What I was testing was if I should use those two death runes for an extra obliterate or for a pair of howling blasts. My results, once recount was working again, were that my dps was higher (by about 500) if I ignored blood plague (except for Outbreak) and only used Obliterate if I had an unholy rune free, otherwise frost/death runes would be used for Howling Blast, even if it meant using KM for frost strike.

Now I ask, aside from using the dummy, is there anything that I might be missing with this test? Also, would raid buffs push the Obliterate priority back up, likely due to sunder? Or would it remain similar due to the +Spell Dmg debuff?


World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Tried the rotation you mentioned and these are the results from the fights where I used it.
Seems to work pretty well IMO. To the point where I sometimes couldn't see a clear difference in DPS compared to the regular rotation (which would mean more flexibility).

It's better on Chimaeron due to standing in front of him during feud and not relying on that many obliterates (parry).
Maloriak is an aoe fight, sure, but still worked extremely well during single target. Again, during red phase you attack the boss from the front which means HB is better than OB.

On one of our Chimaeron wipes I was even topping the meters down to ~30% (above our crazy troll hunters that usually destroy the meters).

It's weird how big numbers on HB I saw yesterday though. Got regular crits of 60k+ easily on single target.

#55 Lamperouqe

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Posted 28 April 2011 - 08:57 AM

Most of the talk about IBT in the last page has basically rediscussed the reasons 4/31/6 gained popularity after the Virulence change in the first place. IBT may sim better and math out better on paper, but in practice it tends to be difficult to utilize to optimum effect due to various conditions.


This. Especially with the 2H build I rarely find myself having space to use BT the moment it comes off CD due to the spec having very little free globals at my haste levels in my personal experience. Epidemic also gains value on fights including target switching and/or tab PSing like twin dragons and Maloriak for example. Epidemic is also only marginally less DPS than IBT on single target in a perfect world. That said I'm against it being listed as mandatory, and would like to see it listed as optional along with Epidemic.

Yesterday while raiding I grew quite skeptical about DW outperforming 2H. My guildie (Ponppa) was DW Frost while I was 2H because I lack 1H weapons, and Ponppa was constantly complaining about having nothing to hit while DPSing as DW, while I found myself being almost GCD locked. The effects were also seen while comparing our DPS, since while running with just about the same level of gear (nearly BiS) and skill, the results were *click*...

After the raid we looked at the logs to see the differences;

2H:
159 FS's (62 crits 1 Do 1 Pa), 110 OB's (40 crits 1 Pa), 57 HB's (4 crits).
Avg FS hit 17420.3 crit 34869.6, OB hit 24505.7 crit 48643.3, HB hit 18268.0 crit 36848.5.
MotFW generated 1030 RP.
Rime x59, KM x77, FC uptime 94.6%.
28668.4 DPS

DW:
116 MH FS's (33 crits 1 Pa which means 1 more OH hit), 101 MH OB's (35 crits), 35 HB's (6 crits).
Avg FS hit 18584.7 crit 40397.3, OB hit 24726 crit 50189, HB hit 20326.0 crit 38940.5.
DW did 108257 more melee damage.
Rime x37, KM x64, FC uptime 76.2%.
24478.8 DPS

Sure, the RNG gods might have favored me here, but the difference is quite large nonetheless. Need to make some other parses to confirm, since because of patch day lag, bugs, disconnects and so on this was the only comparable log we produced.

#56 Krabath

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Posted 28 April 2011 - 09:36 AM

Yesterday while raiding I grew quite skeptical about DW outperforming 2H.


Simcraft and Testdummy reported me quite good DPS numbers for the DW-build while using the U-Presence.
This was contrary to my experience in dungeons and the raid yesterday.

It seems as if DW suffers badly while moving around and there is a state of "rune starved" below a haste rating of ~ 2200, depending on latency and personal skill. 2H Frost feels much more stable and constant below this haste rating.

I think the following stat weight will produce better results in a "life/real enviroment" than calculated by simulations till reaching a certain ilvl of ~372 and haste value of ~2200; statw.: crit > mastery > haste.


Reason for this conclusion:
Crit and Mastery are not effected by any idle time which is not properly refelcted with simulations.
Haste value weight is reduced by a hughe margin the less % "Mob uptime" a character has.

#57 Viggers

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Posted 28 April 2011 - 12:11 PM

Simcraft and Dumym reported me quite good DPS numbers for the DW build while using the U-Presence.
This was contrary to my experience in dungeons and the raid yesterday.

It seems as if dw suffers badly while moving around and there is a state of "rune starved" below a haste rating of ~ 2200, depending on latency and personal skill. Furthermore dw suffers a lot from moving around and much more than 2hand.

2H Frost feels much more stable and constant below this haste rating.

I wonder if the following stat wight might produce better results in a "life/real enviroment" than calculated by simulations till reaching a certain ilvl of ~372 and haste value of ~2200; statw.: crit > mastery > haste.


Reason for this conclusion:
Crit and Mastery are not effected by any idle time which is not properly refelcted with simulations.
Haste value weight is reduced by a hughe margin the less % "Mob uptime" a character has.


i understand what your saying about hastes reduced value in real life, and can see that it could easily be correct. but why have you also changed crit/mastery's relative weights? even if we were to say haste is bottom choice due to the reasons you mentioned, i see no reason to not stack mastery followed by crit. especially if what was said above about howling blast spam over OB on certain bosses is correct, and taking into account crits value being diminished by KM procs

#58 Krabath

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Posted 28 April 2011 - 12:25 PM

It looks as if Mastery and Crit are very close in most fights with Mastery in the lead upon certain conditions like aoe fights.

KM and crit do not get along each other very well but we lost "blood strike". Instead we do use more frost strikes and obliterates with the same amount of KM-procs as before the patch. This changes the obliterate and frost strike KMratio because we do have way more of both "special strikes" which are not affected by a KM proc.


Before Patch:
Crit Chance of Obliterate ~ 29% (including KM)

After Patch:
Crit Chance of Obliterate ~ 24% (including KM)

Both numbers can vary on your Performance, Skill and Crit Value.


Still, you might be correct and i should state it as Mastery >= Crit.

I need a lot of testing to get more accurate numbers. My point was haste & UP presence is not performing as good as simulated in life conditions and i do try to find the optimal "lifeserver biggest DPS spec" for dw frost instead of a "simulation biggest DPS" spec

#59 Lamperouqe

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Posted 28 April 2011 - 01:15 PM

Adding a thing that came to mind on IBT vs. Epidemic; there is a higher chance on having a situation where a Rime hasn't procced before your FF is falling off the target without Epidemic, forcing you to use a rune on HB unless Outbreak is available.

#60 Mynou

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Posted 28 April 2011 - 06:43 PM

Tested dw and 2h and after that I clearly can say 2h Frost is way better. The other thing is, is got so many free gcds in dw and 2h.. anyone else got that problem?




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