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4.2 Changes Discussion


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#21 Pathal

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Posted 05 May 2011 - 06:47 PM

So you want it nerfed to be comparable to our current set bonus?


Not quite. My thought process was that, as you also observed, that this is one of the strongest bonuses we've had. The consequence of being distinctly stronger is that it is more likely to be toned down, just as things that are distinctly weaker are more likely to be buffed.

Then there's the consideration of how spec's are balanced. I'm fairly sure that specs are balanced with their tier bonuses in mind, since it's typical for all specs to try and aim for 4p. So if Rogue DPS is and has been balanced with mediocre bonuses, one would expect the future bonuses to also be of similar level of potency.

It may be pessimistic, but it does have some rational behind it. There's many reasons why this could remain at 25% to a random stat for 30s every 30s, but there are still a number of reasons why it would be also be reduced in power. Both of them have reasoning behind them, but without being a part of the Dev team it's hard to say what their goal for Rogues is precisely.

All of this, of course, doesn't even consider the issue of how the EP value would scale past t12 content.

#22 Aldriana

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Posted 05 May 2011 - 07:06 PM

I think that last point is possibly the most interesting. This set bonus is going to scale very, very well as we continue to go up in tier. Every gear upgrade we get will directly increase the average rating granted by the bonus, in addition to the fact that the stats themselves become more powerful with time (i.e. 1 point of rating will be worth more damage in T12 than it is in T11, and even more still in T13). Its probably not a large enough increase that we'll wind up using the set bonus indefinitely - the raw agi you gain by going up a tier is not to be trifled with - but it is worth keeping in mind that this set bonus will scale very, very, well.

#23 Inthedârk

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Posted 05 May 2011 - 09:17 PM

Regarding Hurricane: 450 Haste, even for combat, it maybe 700 EP; 33% uptime on a 25% buff increases that to about 760, which is still quite a bit less than the 1000 avalanche gives.

As for waiting on trinkets: taking a second look at those buffs, I suspect that they'll update dynamically: that is, they're a buff that gives a 25% boost to (say) haste, not a buff that gives temporary haste equal to 25% of your current total. So my guess would be that even if your trinket procced after the buff, it would still get the increase, which would make waiting unnecessary.

That said: if that's not the case, it might be worth waiting a few seconds on... but not very many. Keep in mind that you're creating downtime where you have *no* buff, *and* delaying the damage bonus on your target, in exchange for a 33% chance of a larger buff. There is some amount of time that its worth waiting for that, but its not going to be more than a few seconds.

Mh right, the buff scales with the stat valu you have in that sec. not you have when the buff comes.

#24 Antiarc

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Posted 05 May 2011 - 11:09 PM

Aldriana, for Shadowcraft, how would you recommend I approach implementing the 6pc? Just multiply those three ratings by 1.0825? I'd like to have this ready for practical testing ASAP. :)
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#25 Aldriana

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Posted 05 May 2011 - 11:34 PM

That'll do for short-term estimation. I'll try to find time to update the model more thoroughly sometime in the next week or so.

#26 nextormento

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Posted 05 May 2011 - 11:57 PM

I believe we'd need to update the engine and add an item to the GearBuffs in stats:
class GearBuffs(object):
    allowed_buffs = frozenset([
        'rogue_t12_4pc',
    ])

    def rogue_t12_4pc_stats_bonus(self):
        if self.rogue_t12_4pc:
            return 1 + (.25 / 3)
        else:
            return 1

Then call it from the modeler (as we need to check for tricks actually going off and that is done in the settings), possibly from set_constants().
for stat in self.base_stats:
    if stat in ['haste', 'mastery', 'crit'] and self.tricks_on_cooldown:
        stat *= stats.rogue_t12_4pc_stats_bonus()
or something along those lines.

That would average it nicely but, as Aldriana mentioned, there's an amount of events under which the buff could be significantly boosted by other trinket procs. Averaging it would certainly 'flatten' out the outcome (as the boost would utimately be averaged with any trinket uptime) but since those events are not many (a 5 minutes fight has the tier buff switching 10 times, the probability of it aligning with the corresponding haste/mastery/crit proc is not trivial), we could be getting into some fancy modeling.

#27 Isebel

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Posted 08 May 2011 - 05:59 PM

I'd agree with Aldriana in that trinket procs would probably update into the extra buff from the 4pc since it's buffing the total amount of X stat you're getting. I would imagine that it would recalculate your total stat value before the 4pc buff and then add 25% or add 25% of whatever your proc is IF it does in fact reroll after trinkets and other procs.

If it goes off the stat value at the tricks cast then I imagine it'd only be better to wait if you have ICDs on trinkets and procs coming up at the same or near the same time as your tricks cooldown.

#28 Ikutaba

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Posted 09 May 2011 - 01:18 PM

If it goes off the stat value at the tricks cast then I imagine it'd only be better to wait if you have ICDs on trinkets and procs coming up at the same or near the same time as your tricks cooldown.


The stat buff you get is random, and the buff lasts 30secs. The CD on Tricks is 30secs. In practice, it would never be worth waiting for the CD on a trinket.

#29 Crevan

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Posted 10 May 2011 - 07:45 PM

Our tier armour set has been datamined in the upcoming PTR build:

[TABLE]Item|Agi|Stam|Crit|Hit|Exp|Mastery|Haste|Sockets|Socket bonus
Dark Phoenix Tunic|368|611|230| |263| | |1 red 1 blue|20 agi
Dark Phoenix Gloves|282|454|133| | | |230 |1 red|10 haste
Dark Phoenix Helmet|348|611| |233| | |249 |1 meta 1 yellow|30 agi
Dark Phoenix Legguards|368|611|218|280| | | |1 red 1 blue|20 agi
Dark Phoenix Spaulders|282|454| | | |197|185|1 red|10 agi
[/TABLE]

So far the stats look decent for both raiding specs, with only the chest piece being less desirable for assassination. The set bonus is probably not implemented yet, and obviously this being the ptr, the numbers might change a bit.

#30 koaschten

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Posted 10 May 2011 - 07:59 PM

What is the chance of bosses having fire resistance above average in the firelands raid? Thinking of the set bonus there.
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#31 Tinwhisker

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Posted 10 May 2011 - 08:08 PM

What is the chance of bosses having fire resistance above average in the firelands raid? Thinking of the set bonus there.


I'm fairly sure there's little chance of that. Blizzard has stated int he past they had no intention of creating "resistance fights" which would require either gearing up with resistance or bosses who had resistance. Forcing mages to go frost or shaman to go resto isn't in line with their current model.

#32 Jodou

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Posted 10 May 2011 - 08:13 PM

Our T12 has been named, Dark Phoenix, and has been added to my gear list here.

EDIT: Crevan beat me to the punch as I typed/calculated. Please delete this post if necessary.

#33 Aldriana

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Posted 10 May 2011 - 08:16 PM

I seriously doubt that they'd give us a set bonus that was gimped for the content associated with the set. My sense is they've also largely abandoned the notion of bosses with resistances/immunities to particularly schools of magic and/or debuffs - while it makes sense thematically, screwing over *all* fire mages and nerfing enh shaman clearly has some issues from a design perspective. So my guess would be that all resistances will be more or less standard.

My immediate impression of the set is that, like the set bonuses, it favors Combat over Assassination - high haste, very little mastery. The high amount of crit is also not really ideal. From a Mutilate perspective the early leader for weakest piece (depending on what offset pieces are available) would appear to be the chest - neither crit nor expertise is notably good. For Combat I'd say the early leader is the legs, for similar reasons.

Also interesting is the socket bonus on the shoulders - usually a 2-gem socket bonus gives 20 of a stat, not 10. I would assume its just a bug, but it wouldn't be the first time we had an item with an unusual socket bonus.

#34 Crevan

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Posted 10 May 2011 - 08:56 PM

Also interesting is the socket bonus on the shoulders - usually a 2-gem socket bonus gives 20 of a stat, not 10. I would assume its just a bug, but it wouldn't be the first time we had an item with an unusual socket bonus.

Actually, that's just a typo by me - the shoulders have 1 red socket. I'll update the post.

Regarding resistances - a blue post recently confirmed that no encounters in Firelands will require fire resist gear, and no bosses will have fire immunities (sorry, can't find the source atm).

#35 Okeska

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 05:35 AM

What is the chance of bosses having fire resistance above average in the firelands raid? Thinking of the set bonus there.


From MMO-Champion:

You won't need fire resistance and bosses won't have any either.


Link: MMO-Champion - Cory Stockton interview on Buffed.de - Patch 4.2 Extra Information

#36 sp00n

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 11:00 AM

From a Mutilate perspective the early leader for weakest piece (depending on what offset pieces are available) would appear to be the chest - neither crit nor expertise is notably good.


Actually, the gloves seem to have received the short end of the stick. In their current implementation they're even worse (though only ever so slightly) than T11 heroic gloves. The chest is only marginally better though.

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#37 Zenflux

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 12:11 PM

Darkmoon Card: Hurricane damage done when triggered has been increased by 40%, however, it can no longer deal critical strikes and no longer receives any modifiers to its damage from the equipping player.


Just posted to MMO-Champion today. Most likely this change is just to keep it in line with where the proc is now and later into Firelands and later tiers it will fall away as just an entry level raiding trinket.

#38 koaschten

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 01:04 PM

Looking through the new 4.2 items I stumbled over a new scope.

Flintlocke's Woodchucker - Item - World of Warcraft

Considering that 300agi is quite a number and we usually dont have a different use for a scope (ranged crit or attack power anyone?) I could see making use of the proc from shooting and then engaging just for the sake of the chance of procc'ing?
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#39 Guest_AeonNightmare_*

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 01:36 PM

Looking through the new 4.2 items I stumbled over a new scope.

Flintlocke's Woodchucker - Item - World of Warcraft

Considering that 300agi is quite a number and we usually dont have a different use for a scope (ranged crit or attack power anyone?) I could see making use of the proc from shooting and then engaging just for the sake of the chance of procc'ing?


Since it is a proc for ranged weapons I'm not sure it was meant with rogues in mind at all. Probably more to give hunters a high end proc "enchant" in line with landslide, windwalk and power torrent. That said, we may have use of it during phases where only ranged can reach the boss, but I see the dps loss of using it at any other time being not worth it.

#40 Aldriana

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 04:44 PM

Actually, the gloves seem to have received the short end of the stick. In their current implementation they're even worse (though only ever so slightly) than T11 heroic gloves. The chest is only marginally better though.


Well, its worth noting that the T11 gloves are quite well itemized - more so than the T11 chest. Hence, the comparison says as much about T11 as T12 - once you get to the heroic pieces, they'll trump T11 regardless, so it doesn't really matter that much how the T11 heroic pieces stack up to the T12 regular.

Ultimately, of course, this all comes down to speculation - its going to be determined by what offset pieces are available in Firelands. Given the lower boss count, its conceivable that there won't be offset options available for all slots, and not all the options that do exist will be good.




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