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4.2 Changes Discussion


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#41 nextormento

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 02:40 AM

New round of datamined items. We can now make a complete set with pieces for every slot, pre-Heroic that is (only missing a 278 main hand for combat); note that the reputation ring is of heroic ilvl. Given the number of bosses I very much doubt we'll see many more different pieces.

[table="head"]Item|slot|ilvl|Agi|Stam|Crit|Hit|Exp|Mastery|Haste|Sockets|Socket bonus|dps/speed
Flamesign Necklace|neck|378|227|341|156|144| | | | | | |
Flamebinder Bracers|wrists|378|227|341|148| |154| | | | | |
Flamebinding Girdle|waist|378|282|454| |167| | |211|1blue|10agi| |
Firestone Seal|finger|378|227|341|140| | |158| | | | |
Viridian Signet of the Avengers|finger|391|236|384| | | |134|181|1red|10agi| |
Morningstar Shard|thrown|378|128|192| |88|81| | | | |744.1 / 2.0|
[/table]

EDIT:
This should clear the previous doubts we had on the set bonus:
The Fire damage-over-time effects from some set bonuses work like Ignite, and will accumulate and refresh damage just as it does.
The rogue 4-piece bonus never picks hit or expertise, and never picks the same rating twice in a row.
source

#42 Halbarad

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 09:51 PM

As per the edit in above, we got a slight tier info update.

Tier 12 Set Bonuses - Feedback - Forums - World of Warcraft

The ones related (or hopefuly related) to us are below.

•The rogue 4-piece bonus never picks hit or expertise, and never picks the same rating twice in a row.

•The Fire damage-over-time effects from some set bonuses work like Ignite, and will accumulate and refresh damage just as it does.

With the news that the proc never picks the same in a row, I would assume its slighly more profitable for tricks+trinket stacking (50% chance instead of 33%). it at least lets us know what we won't get based on what we just had.

#43 Chult86

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 04:01 AM

This should increase the EP value of crit for all specs significantly I would think. Getting crit up to the point where it would be hard to go 4secs without a melee crit (Poisons won't count for it).

#44 Ikutaba

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 09:20 PM

This should increase the EP value of crit for all specs significantly I would think. Getting crit up to the point where it would be hard to go 4secs without a melee crit (Poisons won't count for it).


No? And why would it matter if the 2pc had 100% uptime?

This would (roughly) increase the value of crit by 6%, leaving crit still below 1EP. 4pc proc doesn't change that.

#45 Chult86

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 04:28 AM

It's like Ignite, stacking and rolling? Keeping that stack up the entire fight would be huge compared to letting it drop a few times.

#46 VoidStar

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 08:58 AM

It's like Ignite, stacking and rolling? Keeping that stack up the entire fight would be huge compared to letting it drop a few times.


I think you're misunderstanding the intent of the reference to Ignite. The way "Ignite-like" DoTs work is that a further proc will add its damage to what was left of any currently running DoT and refreshes its duration, it does not (and this is the important bit) make any difference if you refresh the DoT or if it falls off and you apply a new one: the total damage done is the same. The pre-TBC behaviour of Ignite did indeed promote rolling the DoT, but when Blizzard references Ignite now, I think its safe to assume they're talking about the modern behaviour.

Ignite-like DoTs are specifically designed to work equally when in scenarios where they're refreshed or where they fall off: there's supposed to be no benefit and no penalty for clipping or rolling and "stacking" is meaningless. Ignite has some well-known bugs that sometimes affect whether this design aim is achieved of course, but we can hope that the T12 bonuses will avoid them!

#47 Chult86

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 03:21 PM

Yep, I was thinking of the way back Ignite.

#48 Zellyn

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 07:27 PM

Since it is a proc for ranged weapons I'm not sure it was meant with rogues in mind at all. Probably more to give hunters a high end proc "enchant" in line with landslide, windwalk and power torrent. That said, we may have use of it during phases where only ranged can reach the boss, but I see the dps loss of using it at any other time being not worth it.


As combat, maybe. I would be very surprised if that was a better ranged attack option for Mutilate than just keeping DP stacked up and proccing IP a la Atramedes or P2 Nef. That said, Blizzard has been pretty good about avoiding situations where we have literally nothing to do but plink away with a ranged weapon so it seems pretty minor either way.
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#49 Jodou

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Posted 19 May 2011 - 03:45 PM

New set of items released today and as always updated here. The 2.0 speed dagger is reintroduced but only to be overshadowed by its 365 iLvl. We're also starting to see items to compare with T12 and our tier chest is absolutely crushed by over 150 EP (for Assassination) if the current stats see release. Previously, tier differences never amounted to more than 30 EP by comparison so this is quite foretelling as to how insane iLvl will affect future gearing decisions.

#50 Grimwolf

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Posted 19 May 2011 - 06:06 PM

New set of items released today and as always updated here. The 2.0 speed dagger is reintroduced but only to be overshadowed by its 365 iLvl. We're also starting to see items to compare with T12 and our tier chest is absolutely crushed by over 150 EP (for Assassination) if the current stats see release. Previously, tier differences never amounted to more than 30 EP by comparison so this is quite foretelling as to how insane iLvl will affect future gearing decisions.


And the chest isn't always going to be the best off-piece. If you find yourself with a lot of hit, then the legs will be the better off-piece. At least with stats as they're weighted now.

#51 Jodou

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Posted 19 May 2011 - 06:36 PM

And the chest isn't always going to be the best off-piece. If you find yourself with a lot of hit, then the legs will be the better off-piece. At least with stats as they're weighted now.

The flaw in that logic is that we would need to be over spell hit cap with no way to shed hit (via reforge or dumping hit gems for straight agility), which I don't see happening this tier. You must always value pieces as a stand alone until they impact the overall score, especially when balancing set bonuses.

#52 Crevan

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Posted 20 May 2011 - 02:55 PM

Last year, there was an announcement that Cataclysm raid bosses will require increasing amounts of hit rating as we progress through tiers. The last blue post on the topic I remember was back in September, and after that I didn't find any additional info. So now that we've got Firelands on the ptr, has anyone done any testing of how hit scaling actually works, or whether it's implemented at all?

#53 ieatpaperbag

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Posted 20 May 2011 - 03:35 PM

Last year, there was an announcement that Cataclysm raid bosses will require increasing amounts of hit rating as we progress through tiers. The last blue post on the topic I remember was back in September, and after that I didn't find any additional info. So now that we've got Firelands on the ptr, has anyone done any testing of how hit scaling actually works, or whether it's implemented at all?

I cannot say with absolute confidence but it does not appear to be implemented at the moment. Raiding on the PTR with no mods, I have not noticed any yellow misses pop up from missed poisons though, I am not specifically looking for them. While Blizzard to my knowledge has said nothing about it since this discussion, it is the PTR and things are in constant flux so we may need to just sit and wait.

#54 Sethur

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Posted 22 May 2011 - 10:16 PM

"Darkmoon Card: Hurricane damage done when triggered has been increased by 40%, however, it can no longer deal critical strikes and no longer receives any modifiers to its damage from the equipping player."

Just posted to MMO-Champion today. Most likely this change is just to keep it in line with where the proc is now and later into Firelands and later tiers it will fall away as just an entry level raiding trinket.


I may have missed the discussion, but this seems to need a bit more attention. As far as I can tell, this is a pretty significant buff to DMC:H. A raw 40% damage increase would seem to outweigh the removal of any crit damage we might receive. Even at 40% crit raid-buffed, the removal of critical strikes from the trinket should only be a 20% reduction.

40% crit chance * 50% damage bonus from crits = 20% crit damage

So in the end the change looks like a 20% buff, clearly enough to be worth talking about. But perhaps there's something I'm missing here - any thoughts?

#55 wuffles

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Posted 22 May 2011 - 10:24 PM

Going to go out on a limb here and suggest that this is why its not getting any attention:

"... no longer receives any modifiers to its damage from the equipping player."
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

#56 Crevan

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Posted 22 May 2011 - 10:34 PM

As far as I remember, the "modifiers to its damage" bit refers to classes with +elemental damage mastery/talents, which in this case is enhancement shamans and survival hunters. This part of the change was never relevant to rogues.

#57 Sethur

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Posted 22 May 2011 - 11:52 PM

I'm pretty certain that's correct, which is why I didn't feel the need to address that part of the change. Rogues lack any damage modifier that would affect DMC:H's damage.

But upon further consideration I think I made a pretty stupid mistake in the way I structured my first calculation. The trinket's base damage has to be used as a starting point, which I didn't do. This would make the pre-4.2 trinket with critical strike bonuses a 120% output (assuming 40% crit chance) and the post-4.2 trinket a 140% output:

1.4/1.2 = 1.166 or 116.6%

So the actual difference would be closer to a 16.6% damage increase rather than 20% as I first guessed. Still pretty significant nevertheless.

#58 Sakuratei

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Posted 23 May 2011 - 01:53 AM

Using the EP value given for DMC:H in the Combat thread (1333.7) and the EP value for Agility set at 2.7, the EP value for the proc on live is 467. Adding 16.6% damage increase to the EP bumps it up by 77.5, giving the final trinket a value of 1411 in 4.2 for combat, putting it ahead of normal Machination and heroic Cyclone, but still below Fluid Death and heroic Machination.

For Assassination, the values 1180.97 and 2.6 are given. Proc component is 346, EP buff is 57.4, final value in 4.2 is 1238, closely following heroic Tia's Grace and still below normal Machination, heroic Cyclone, Fluid Death and heroic Machination.

However, 4.2 will bring new trinkets which will probably be better than our current best in slot trinkets. Overall, assuming these values are correct it's a neat buff for the card in relevance of the first tier, and a decent investment for new Combat players at least.

#59 Ryazan

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Posted 23 May 2011 - 06:12 AM

There will be a new reputation faction called Avengers of Hyjal in 4.2 and it offers you some of the items posted earlier by nextormento:

Exalted:
Viridian Signet of the Avengers

Revered:
Ancient Petrified Seed

Honored:
Flamebinding Girdle

Currently there isn't anything for dps using agility on friendly but I guess it's only a matter of time since MMO lists two plate dps cloaks on their news post.
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#60 ieatpaperbag

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Posted 23 May 2011 - 12:13 PM

With friendly reputation, you can purchase Matoclaw's Band (359 agility ring), this is the vendor.




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