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BIS DPS Warrior Discussion


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#41 FBMWhite

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Posted 20 July 2011 - 03:12 PM

It's a BIS list. If the H Al'Akir cloaks aren't on there because they are hard to get you should probably get rid of the H Sulfuras because I think those will be even harder to get your hands on.

#42 Runtime

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Posted 20 July 2011 - 04:49 PM

Im going to be updating to chardev profiles since they finally updated. This will make it easier to run several tests without the worry of making a typographical error. As for the Cloudburst cloak, That was an oversight on my part. When I update the profiles ill run some of my own tests to check your results.

#43 Fjeenzy

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Posted 21 July 2011 - 01:51 AM

Many warriors who plays in high end guilds, or any guild who killed al'akir on heroic a few times has a rather decent chance of having the cloak. If it's BiS, the list should contain the best items possible. Guess two lists could be made possible with the right reforging around, or something.

Also, I suspect HoR is stronger than the heroic Apparatus.

#44 iddqd84

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Posted 22 July 2011 - 09:16 PM

Landsoul and also Verdisha from Paragon play with "Essence of the Eternal Flame" and i can't imagine why. This trinket is so much weaker than any of the other available STR trinkets. The only reason i could consider it to use it, is the on-use effect, that can be lined up with DW/Reck but as the cooldowns of this and DW aren't fitting (1 min and 2,4 min) it shouldn't be a very good trinket... oh well, is that really enough to bypass H:HoR?

#45 reichardt

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Posted 23 July 2011 - 02:21 AM

Obviously I don't know either guilds ragnaros heroic strat. But the 1 minute cooldown makes it strong for Sons/Molten Seeds phase. Where you really need to kill the adds fast.

#46 Grimraven

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Posted 23 July 2011 - 04:40 PM

I was comparing with to see if is really a dps gain.

I loaded landsoul's profile into a simcraft using chardev and ran a simulation. Average dps comes out to be 28730 with his current gear setup.

I then changed with and reforged his gear to compensate for missing expertise.

Ran simulation again. Average dps comes out to be 28554, which is basically a 176dps loss.
I read that simcraft does not include trinket procs into simulations. However even if you compare the 2 trinkets solely based on their stats which are 363expertise versus 383str, 383str should theoretically result in more dps.

I would like to hear other thoughts on this.

P.S. I realize that this topic has already been discussed, but I just don't see enough proof that is indeed better than

other thoughts: if was in fact better, wouldn't you think Landsoul was already using it instead of ?

#47 Zimeron

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Posted 23 July 2011 - 06:31 PM

I read that simcraft does not include trinket procs into simulations.

I have no idea where you read this, but it's wrong. Not including trinket procs in our simulations would leave us with a gaping hole in the results.

#48 Gulvak

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Posted 23 July 2011 - 08:03 PM

I have no idea where you read this, but it's wrong. Not including trinket procs in our simulations would leave us with a gaping hole in the results.

However I remember in the last BiS thread there being a discussion as to how it lines up procs. Since it always rated FoA very very low. Maybe he just misinterpreted someone telling him that?

#49 Runtime

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Posted 24 July 2011 - 04:22 PM

After some testing using 1 set of gear, the high hit tg build is coming out on top. I ran some differant trinkets as well and the apparatus and heart of rage are roughly even. Heart of rage was slightly higher (~10dps) but with cooldown stacking I think the apparatus will come out on top. I will get the OP updated later today. The was a substantial dps loss. All my tests have been with TG and I will test out the various trinkets for SMF in the near future.

#50 Runtime

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Posted 25 July 2011 - 02:10 AM

Ran both (Earthshaker 372-version) and and even though i was able to get the exact expertise cap with the cloudburst cloak it resulted in no dps gain or loss. I will make note of this in the OP when i update it. Almost finished with the TG tests and then will proceed to thoroughly test SMF.

#51 landsoul

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Posted 25 July 2011 - 06:48 PM

The reason Apparatus is funky is because it's a crit - on use. It doesnt work as well as strength with effect stacks. It doesn't mix with recklessness. Do you want 14% more crit on top of your already 75-85% crit on your abilities? What really is the chance to get another crit within the precious 6s CS window? It's better to use around a CS that's not covered by Recklessness and that means you have to adjust the trinket timings a bit.

From my experience I've always found that if the trinket has a periodic proc, it better be Strength/AP, period. The only exception would be if nothing comparable was available. Procs that increase the strike size have the greatest potential to boost your damage because you could have crit them all if you were lucky.

Why say that Essence of Eternal Flame is bad? It's short cooldown and duration allows almost half of it's uptime to be covered by CS, which is a 40% boost in itself. In my spreadsheet, I couldn't get Apparatus to be even close to Essence as TG using the new Custom Event Matrix. The CEM allows you to stack any cooldown at any time in any combination the game will allow. Comparing Apparatus to HoR was no contest.

Don't let stat combinations on trinkets fool you. It's more about their proc and how they scale with things like CS/DW/Reck and how often.

As far as trinkets go this is how I would rank them:
Vessel
Apparatus (H)
HoR (H)
Essence (TG) / Lisence (SMF)
Apparatus

Apparatus will be an expensive paperweight in your bank. The flat STR is good but it's crit proc doesnt scale at all.
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#52 Runtime

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Posted 25 July 2011 - 07:23 PM

I do realize that cooldown stacking is not taken into account with SimC; but with a 1 min cooldown, Essence of the Eternal Flame will line up with every 3rd CS in the simulation without outside tampering. I might have exaggerated a bit on a substantial dps loss though. It was about an 800 dps loss from (H)HoR and the (H)Apparatus when it was reforged for crit. I did think that it would be higher damage compaired to normal mode trinkets though I ranked higher even though the ICD in SimC is incorrect. (Its listed as having a 100 second ICD when it has a 45 second ICD)

These are the sets I used to test the trinkets.

(H)Apparatus
Essence of the Eternal Flame
(H)HoR
Dwyer's Caber

#53 Fjeenzy

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Posted 26 July 2011 - 02:23 AM

Vessel
Apparatus (H)
HoR (H)
Essence (TG) / Liscence (SMF)
Apparatus


I agree with your discussion, I would however rate HoR (H) as the stronger trinket over Apparatus (H) on most encounters. The on use-trinkets (essence/apparatus) can be better on fights where certain phases needs more dps than others, as internal cooldowns are hard, if not impossible to time.

#54 Elmor

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Posted 26 July 2011 - 06:49 AM

The main problem with HoR, is stacking cooldowns within first 30 sec of the fight. In 1 out of 10(sometimes even more often) it takes 20+seconds to proc, after pre-pot falls off, sometimes if you're "lucky" Avalanche, which will very likely proc within first 10 seconds, will also fall off.
So the algorithm of popping cooldowns becomes very tricky. Shoud you press Death Wish as soon as you hit the boss, to align it with pre-pot, and assuming that one of CS'S during DW will very likely be covered by the HoR proc+Recklessness? Or should you wait till the HoR procs to toggle DW on, so that 20 seconds of DW will be covered by the +Str buff?
From this point, Apparatus seems very good, as you don't bother when to use DW or Reck. You just pop it at once in the beginning, and use trinket for the 2nd CS. Thus you have DW fully covered by the +crit buffs, with no rage issues due to high Flurry uptime.

#55 neekko

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Posted 26 July 2011 - 01:50 PM

Well, tbh I personally had a little issue with hor. While moving on from t11 to t12, I found myself overly capped in expertise, thus forced to reforge out of it. As a result, I got stuck with a lot of haste that I would otherwise had reforged into crit, dropping the value of hor ,since it was "forcing" me to non optimal reforges.

#56 Relcan

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Posted 26 July 2011 - 04:17 PM

As far as trinkets go this is how I would rank them:
Vessel
Apparatus (H)
HoR (H)
Essence (TG) / Lisence (SMF)
Apparatus

Apparatus will be an expensive paperweight in your bank. The flat STR is good but it's crit proc doesnt scale at all.


Ok Would it be possible to get a ranking for trinkets on the OP of this post?

Also could we breakdown the rankings to include the trinkets 365+? (and any lesser trinkets that outperform better like the LtS.) I just unlocked and it would be great to see where that trinket falls considering it will be an easily obtainable trinket by all.

Based on posts above the current ranking is:

#1 Heroic
#2
#3 Heroic
#4 Heroic
#5 TG SMF
#6


Unranked trinkets that should be added:


Heroic

#57 FBMWhite

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Posted 26 July 2011 - 05:59 PM

No one like Fury of Angerforge?

#58 landsoul

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Posted 26 July 2011 - 11:38 PM

This is the best in slot thread, and most of the trinkets listed are very easy to obtain, no reason to list any others.
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#59 Sinnermighty

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 05:56 AM

Should add JC/BS professions to the chardev profile to get the proper stats.

#60 Runtime

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 06:14 AM

I'd prefer to keep the discussion about gear and not about professions.




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