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[Feral-Bear] Thrashing around 4.2 (OLD)


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#21 Melthu

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Posted 05 July 2011 - 08:55 PM

Are you thinking of the 4.2 change to Rake?

#22 ac90b671

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Posted 06 July 2011 - 02:47 AM

I'm still somewhat lost over stam vs agi. I'm getting conflicting opinions. My bear is US>BLACKROCK>EWALL . He's configured almost exactly how rawr suggests and it's almost entirely stacked stam, but above I'm reading stuff like survive 2.5 hits then gem agi. I think with about 200k health that's more than 2.5 hits, but it doesn't seem like I'm missing out on that much mitigation. In rawr if I optimize for only mitigation, I gain very little mitigation and lose a whole bunch of survivability. Stacked stam, I'm sitting at about 37% dodge and 86% total mitigation if I remember right. I keep hearing that getting to agi gems is the way to go but I honestly don't see why. Could it be that mitigation in general is a good idea but agi gemming gets very little mitigation gain at a high survivability cost? I feel like I should trust rawr over someones opinion because it's crunching numbers to draw conclusions but a program is only as good as the user using it and it's programmer. Is there something I'm missing? Does rawr devalue survivability at some gear point beyond where I'm at? Please feel free to critique my bear. I feel like I'm doing something wrong, but I can't find solid answers doing it any other way. As it is, I had to do some serious convincing to get into a pug for Lord Rhyolith because the pug leader kept saying I was "stam stacked" and that I'm an idiot fail tank. I eventually got in and felt I did well, but would I have done better geared differently? Thanks in advance.

#23 Xaoc

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Posted 06 July 2011 - 04:40 AM

It's crunching numbers based on the parameters you've given it. If you are giving it the incorrect parameters for the content you're progressing in, it'll tell you something thats not correct. Remember, its just a calculator that spits out something when given an input. I can program something that makes 2+2=5, but we all know thats not correct.

#24 Perseverence

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Posted 06 July 2011 - 06:32 AM

Wasn't there a change that the initial damage was treated as periodical damage some time ago? If not, I stand corrected. Can't find it right now, so I guess I've been remembering it wrong, sorry for that.

(e) Melthu probably hit the nail on the head and I was thinking of rake. Sorry again!


I looked around for something like that but couldn't find it. I did go to a training dummy and was able to proc a SD off of Lacerate's initial hit, so it settled it for me.

#25 RareBeast

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Posted 06 July 2011 - 08:25 AM

I feel like I should trust rawr over someones opinion because it's crunching numbers to draw conclusions but a program is only as good as the user using it and it's programmer. Is there something I'm missing?


I loaded your toon up into Rawr, went into the options-Boss Handler and changed the content to Tier 12 - 10man normal, then selected 'The Average Boss' and it comes up showing Agi as far superior to stamina. Make sure you have all your buffs selected as well.

#26 Epicniss

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Posted 06 July 2011 - 06:12 PM

I'm still somewhat lost over stam vs agi. I'm getting conflicting opinions. My bear is US>BLACKROCK>EWALL . He's configured almost exactly how rawr suggests and it's almost entirely stacked stam, but above I'm reading stuff like survive 2.5 hits then gem agi. I think with about 200k health that's more than 2.5 hits, but it doesn't seem like I'm missing out on that much mitigation. In rawr if I optimize for only mitigation, I gain very little mitigation and lose a whole bunch of survivability. Stacked stam, I'm sitting at about 37% dodge and 86% total mitigation if I remember right. I keep hearing that getting to agi gems is the way to go but I honestly don't see why. Could it be that mitigation in general is a good idea but agi gemming gets very little mitigation gain at a high survivability cost?


In response to the "why" portion, there are a number of benefits that agility gives that stamina cannot contend with:

* Agility increases the critical strike percentage and thus gives us a greater chance of activating savage defense
* Agility increases our attack power and thus increases the amount of damage absorbed by savage defense
* Agility increases our chance to dodge (243.58 agility=1% dodge)

Essentially one stat improves our threat, mitigation, and avoidance which stamina cannot hold a candle to after you're able to survive the basic fight mechanics (Note that surviving the fight mechanics is also dependent on the capabilities of your healers - if they need more space then give it to them).

#27 Jackaran

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Posted 06 July 2011 - 07:37 PM

In response to the "why" portion, there are a number of benefits that agility gives that stamina cannot contend with:

* Agility increases the critical strike percentage and thus gives us a greater chance of activating savage defense
* Agility increases our attack power and thus increases the amount of damage absorbed by savage defense
* Agility increases our chance to dodge (243.58 agility=1% dodge)

Essentially one stat improves our threat, mitigation, and avoidance which stamina cannot hold a candle to after you're able to survive the basic fight mechanics (Note that surviving the fight mechanics is also dependent on the capabilities of your healers - if they need more space then give it to them).


Stamina vs Agility

* Stamina increases health (more damage is soaked up)
* Stamina increases the healing received from Leader of the Pack (100 stamina = 1,000 HP, 1,000 HP = +40 healing from LotP)
* Stamina increases Vengeance cap (more Threat and DPS output, 10% of a tank with 175K HP is 17,500 AP gain, which adds to your 12K AP from Agility. 200K HP = 20K AP)

I'm a stamina stacker and felt it necessary to post the benefits of Stamina vs Agility. Ultimately I feel like a balance between Agility and Stamina is the answer. I trust gear, enchants can buff agility while gems and trinkets can buff Stamina or Agility (Depending on the fight, universal trinkets are 100% recommended for any tank characters.)

I mix between Stamina / Agility gems, reforge -> Dodge (priority being Expertise 20-26 > 5% hit > Mastery > Haste > Crit)

Problem with Crit is that you can have as MUCH crit as you want but you cannot change the fact that savage defense has a 50% chance that Savage Defense will occur whenever you crit. This is some what my problem with Savage defense as a reliable damage mitegation. I've actually stacked crit on a Chimaeron fight and watched how many crits actually gave me Savage defense, which is was little less than half proc'd Savage defense. (Experience is exceptable to change for higher damage absorption because its random)

My point is that this is why stacking Crit is null. It's sweet to have for Threat, a healthy amount is good but, it's not 50% + your crit chance to make SD proc. Pulverize + whatever crit you gain from gear + Leader of the Pack = enough to do your job. (Blasphemy! I know.)

Glyphs and Survivability.
Someone stated that there is only one useful glyphs for survivability. I would argue that Berserk is being overlooked, and arguably, Maul as well with this point below.

Glyph of Frenzied Regeneration is a survival glyph but also
Glyph of Berserk is a survival glyph because it places mangle on a 1(or .5) sec GCD which allows you to get in at most 4 Leader of the pack healing proc's within that 25 second window. If you have 175K HP, you'll receive 7000*4 within 25 seconds.

This does not include if you are keeping a consistant proc of 1 LotP per 6 seconds. (which you should be doing along with trying to manage SD)

#28 kalbear

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Posted 06 July 2011 - 08:02 PM

Problem with Crit is that you can have as MUCH crit as you want but you cannot change the fact that savage defense has a 50% chance that Savage Defense will occur whenever you crit. This is some what my problem with Savage defense as a reliable damage mitegation.

This is all true, but at the same time it's a good argument against stamina too. If stamina's main benefits outside of being able to suck up more damage is that it increases your SD shields, well, that's just as random as crit. Furthermore, as you get more crit SD becomes more statistically reliable and thus you will take less spiky damage; the difference is whether or not you want bigger shields less often (and thus more spike) or more shields that are smaller (and thus less spike). The latter is superior for most healing models to manage.

The benefit for crit/AP for agility is mostly for damage and a small amount for survival. The big benefit is the avoidance. similarly, the main benefit for stamina isn't the AP boost from vengeance (which is fraught with issues too), but the benefit you get in being able to take a lot of hits before you die. That being said, there is never a time when taking less damage is useless. there is a time when being able to take huge amounts of damage becomes pointless.

Glyph of Frenzied Regeneration is a survival glyph but also
Glyph of Berserk is a survival glyph because it places mangle on a 1(or .5) sec GCD which allows you to get in at most 4 Leader of the pack healing proc's within that 25 second window. If you have 175K HP, you'll receive 7000*4 within 25 seconds.

This does not include if you are keeping a consistant proc of 1 LotP per 6 seconds. (which you should be doing along with trying to manage SD)

This doesn't make any sense.

First of all, berserk takes the CD off of mangle. Bears still have a 1.5 second GCD (1 second for FF if you're pedantic).

Secondly, the most procs you can get for LotP no matter what is one every 6 seconds. Berserk doesn't help this at all; it doesn't increase the number of LotP procs you can get.

Third, bears are GCD-bound. Meaning that bears have something to do on every single GCD. They aren't normally rage-bound. Thus, they will get a proc of LotP every 6 seconds because they'll always be doing something - 4 actions - in that time. What those 4 actions ARE changes with berserk, but LotP doesn't care about that; it only cares about taking actions at all.

#29 Jackaran

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Posted 06 July 2011 - 08:24 PM

Agreed with your first response Kalbear. A balance of Agi and Stamina I strongly suggest. Blizzard did good in allowing Druids to decide how we want to "game" with that.

Regarding the second part, Mangle - above all other abilities, should be your #1 DPS ability, moreover; Mangle should have a higher crit chance than any of your other abilities (I don't know why, honestly), Maybe it rivals Lacerate. Now if you say that's all poppy-cock and baulder-dash.

Then I present this scientific explanation, Mangle is your #1 Threat Generator and should always be on Cool Down. Now if you reduce that ability to a 1.5 sec GCD via Berserk and spam that instead of Maul, Lacerate, Swipe, Thrash, Pulverize, you have a greater chance to have one of those hits crit because you aren't using any other ability.

Mangle is the first and foremost important ability for Feral Druid threat and placing yourself in a position where that is really the only thing you spam, is not only great for threat and damage output, but also survivability.

Did that help at all?

To clarify as well, within those 25 seconds, you should refresh Lacerate once or twice, depending when you popped Berserk.

#30 Latas

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Posted 06 July 2011 - 10:00 PM

You would still spam maul during berserk, they are independent of each other.

#31 Jackaran

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Posted 06 July 2011 - 10:14 PM

You would still spam maul during berserk, they are independent of each other.


As of 4.2, I would be on the fence with spamming Maul. It depends on the tanks rage situation. Maul is now just a pure Rage dump, the threat / damage from it is crap even with Thrash and Lacerate on the target,

So yeah, if you want to dump rage because you just have too much of it. Talking about spamming Maul, not throwing it in when below 50 rage or so. Mangle > Maul in every way and if you're going to waste rage on Maul instead of Mangle, it's rather foolish. And by Waste, I mean literally throw away rage just to Maul instead of Mangle and Lacerate or Mangle and Swipe.

You shouldn't assume a Tank is popping Berserk with Full rage. It's ideal and was common before Maul costing 30 rage. But you'll see that Maul can quickly consume your rage if you let it.

#32 Melthu

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Posted 06 July 2011 - 11:06 PM

To clear up a couple things in the above posts:

Stamina is strictly inferior to Agility in terms of increasing AP and thus the size of your Savage Defense shields. This is after accounting for the fact that Stamina is cheaper in terms of itemization points. Specifically, your vengeance cap is Stamina + 0.1*Base_Health, not 0.1*Total_Health.

Mangle does not have a higher crit chance than your other abilities. There are plenty of reasons to spam it during Berserk, but higher Savage Defense proc rate is not one of them.

As far as Stamina vs. Agility goes, my view is that the best option is to gear in whatever way gives you the best chance of surviving the encounter. That sounds obvious, but most posts on the subject approach it too narrowly I feel. Considering that the highest level of raiding has been accomplished with bear tanks using both full Stamina stacking and full Agility stacking, the idea that a single correct answer exists is strange to me. My suggestion is to understand the pros and cons to both stats and work with your healers to find a mix that works best for your raid group.

#33 Xaoc

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Posted 08 July 2011 - 05:58 PM

As of 4.2, I would be on the fence with spamming Maul. It depends on the tanks rage situation. Maul is now just a pure Rage dump, the threat / damage from it is crap even with Thrash and Lacerate on the target,

So yeah, if you want to dump rage because you just have too much of it. Talking about spamming Maul, not throwing it in when below 50 rage or so. Mangle > Maul in every way and if you're going to waste rage on Maul instead of Mangle, it's rather foolish. And by Waste, I mean literally throw away rage just to Maul instead of Mangle and Lacerate or Mangle and Swipe.

You shouldn't assume a Tank is popping Berserk with Full rage. It's ideal and was common before Maul costing 30 rage. But you'll see that Maul can quickly consume your rage if you let it.


Using Maul has always been a rage dump since the change to it in 4.0. Just because the damage from Maul is lower than Mangle shouldn't be the deciding factor in whether or not you use the ability. It also has a threat component to it, as well as the fact that it still -does- do damage. I cant remember the last time I've had rage issues tanking a raid boss, so it should always be used to CD when doing so. In 5mans, sure, you might have issues, but the discussion at hand isn't relating to 5mans, so that point is moot.

#34 Gosin

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 06:51 AM

So I'm looking at some opinions something I've been thinking about. I'm mainly looking at mitigation. Threat is not an issue for this simulation(not sure if that is the right wording).

For gemming for socket bonuses, that are anything but haste, reds and yellows having and blues having .

gives the AP/Crit/Dodge but I'm wondering is the dodge from the gem worth it with the diminishing returns.

I'm not asking for hand outs just at what point do people think you are getting more mitigation from the then the ? When is the diminishing returns too much?

#35 Melthu

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 03:14 PM

As far as I'm aware agility is always better than dodge rating in terms of overall damage mitigation. You do get slightly more chance to dodge from dodge rating, but the benefit to AP and crit (and therefore Savage Defense shields and proc rate) outweigh that small difference, unless you are gearing for a specific boss ability that you need to dodge as much as possible.

Do note that despite having "diminishing returns" dodge actually gets better in terms of reducing damage intake as you get more of it.

#36 Blackmere

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Posted 11 July 2011 - 06:35 PM

As for the Stamina vs Agility stacking argument, you should evaluate it on what you prefer your raid dynamic to be and what your raid leaders are looking for.

That being said, it is my firm belief that Stam stacking is required for 90% of heroic mode fights right now (6/7 actually so I guess it would be more like 85%). Every fight that you would be tanking as a bear has a large bleed, incredibly hard hitting mobs (alysrazor adds 100k instant enraged hits are fun) or consistent large spell damage hits that make stacking agi, while still viable, inferior to stamina stacking. And the fight that you are stacking agi (Baleroc) is only if you're OTing Decimation Blade hits, and it's not for the savage defense uptime, it's to squeeze out all of the dodge possible from your gear.

As we distance ourselves from the release of 4.2 and everyone gets the easily accessible gear, the pros for stamina stacking will wash away due to the inherent gain of HP and arguments for agi/stam and agi stacking will gain a lot of ground (especially as people hover around the 190-200k hp area).



While I'm posting, I'd also like to bounce my thoughts about savage defense off the people here. I'm sure that this is not a groundbreaking statement, but I think that SD is the worst mastery of the tanking classes. I believe that it pigeonholes bears into a permanent OTing/add role because of it's inferiority to block and massive death strike shields. The solution to this would be to revert one of the two changes that Blizzard made to SD from Wrath to Cata, either give us the chance to proc on periodic crits, or turn it up to 65% base. I prefer the former of these, as a more consistent shield would give us a more block-like mechanic, instead of the sudo-block that we have now. While i'm sure that the math on sims don't back up my feelings on the matter, and most bears have come to accept SD in all it's glorious inferiority, watching SD uptimes/absorbs compared to my warrior counterpart's blocks is pretty disheartening.

#37 Xaoc

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Posted 12 July 2011 - 05:13 AM

I dont necessarily think that increasing the proc chance will add a lot to the table. Yes it will potentially give us more consistent mitigation, but its still the only "block" that doesnt scale at all with content. Every other tank has their block value determined by the intake of damage. Bears, on the other hand, will always have a 20-25k "block". So far Blizzards only compensation has been to increase our passive mitigation via NR and Thick Hide.

#38 Lazaren

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Posted 12 July 2011 - 05:00 PM

That being said, it is my firm belief that Stam stacking is required for 90% of heroic mode fights right now (6/7 actually so I guess it would be more like 85%).

As we push into a new tier of heroic content it isn't surprising that EH could be a little low to start. The real question isn't whether we should stack agi or stamina for heroic content, it's how much EH do we actually need to survive heroic bosses?T Stacking agility is strictly superior once a sufficient level of EH has been acquired. Mindlessly stacking either stat due to gut instincts or without understanding why is something I would caution against.

#39 Jackaran

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Posted 12 July 2011 - 05:46 PM

To clear up a couple things in the above posts:

Stamina is strictly inferior to Agility in terms of increasing AP and thus the size of your Savage Defense shields. This is after accounting for the fact that Stamina is cheaper in terms of itemization points. Specifically, your vengeance cap is Stamina + 0.1*Base_Health, not 0.1*Total_Health.

Mangle does not have a higher crit chance than your other abilities. There are plenty of reasons to spam it during Berserk, but higher Savage Defense proc rate is not one of them.

As far as Stamina vs. Agility goes, my view is that the best option is to gear in whatever way gives you the best chance of surviving the encounter. That sounds obvious, but most posts on the subject approach it too narrowly I feel. Considering that the highest level of raiding has been accomplished with bear tanks using both full Stamina stacking and full Agility stacking, the idea that a single correct answer exists is strange to me. My suggestion is to understand the pros and cons to both stats and work with your healers to find a mix that works best for your raid group.


Melthu.

The testing I did with Rawr, comparing full Stam (Gems/enchants) vs full Agi (Gems/enchants), it showed that Stamina offers about 12K Vengeance average while agility offered 10K Vengeance average. I'm not sure if this is the "up time" on vengeance or ??

The difference, however, agility has about 100-200 AP lead, so you're definitely right about that. The point I was trying to make earlier regarding Vengeance cap was, the more stamina you have the higher your cap is. - If this isn't correct, I'd like some clarity on it. I didn't mean to say "total" health.

#40 Melthu

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Posted 12 July 2011 - 07:06 PM

You're correct that Stamina increases your Vengeance cap more than Agility because, well, Agility doesn't affect your Vengeance cap at all. But remember that Vengeance is just AP, actually just potential AP. You gain 2 AP directly from each point of Agility, compared to a 1 point higher Vengeance cap for each point of Stamina.

The point I was making is that while Stamina does indirectly increase your AP by increasing your Vengeance cap, this effect is strictly inferior to the direct AP increase you get from an equivalent amount of Agility, so counting this as a benefit of Stamina over Agility is misleading.




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