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[Feral-Cat] 4.2 Fire Cat funtimes (OLD)


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#21 byjiang

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Posted 26 June 2011 - 02:54 PM

In conclusion, continue to refresh rake using TF to have it lineup for the a long-term dps gain (the rest of the encounter). Note the <9s rule was crafted simply because 6s (duration of TF) + 9s = 15s (duration of rake). From a perfect simulator's perspective, if your current rake is not TF-buffed, and you popped TF right now, then the latest you can refresh it is just under 9s, and it will have the buff.


I did not take into account the direct damage of rake, thanks for correcting that.

If I understand you correctly, you are using the TF glyph? Then what you're saying should be true.

In the case that the berserk glyph is used instead, rake and TF line up automatically and there is no need to pre-refresh rake. The only situation where you'll get the chance to refresh non-TF rake with TFed rake is when you are running around/disabled/have to do something else. In that case only the "short term" damage is considered, as the following rakes should line up with TF again.

Calculating the "short term" damage with 5ticks+direct damage, with updated shred/rake damage figures:
premade ilvl378, MotW only, non-crit damage
rake:5750 damage, 5750 per tick, 35 energy
shred:~12500, 40 energy
damage gained:5750+5750*5*0.15=10062.5
equivalent to 32.2 energy if spent to shred
The first tick of rake is preserved even if rake is pressed twice, thus it would be a dps gain to clip non-TF rake with TFed rake anytime.

Hopefully I did not forget something again.

According to your diagram the last tick of a refreshed rake with TF get no benefits from the TF, but that's false.


From my testings, the damage of the direct hit and the following ticks all depend on the stats at the moment you rake. Therefore I believe Robosaurus is correct.

#22 Farronski

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Posted 26 June 2011 - 03:15 PM

From my testings, the damage of the direct hit and the following ticks all depend on the stats at the moment you rake. Therefore I believe Robosaurus is correct.


Robosaurus sheet says if you refresh rake with TF aktiv only the first to sixth tick gain the damage bonus from TF, but the seventh tick also gain the dmg bonus.

Edit: So actually I agree whit you (we both say multiplier is fixed for the whole Rake), and we both disagree with Robosaurus...

#23 byjiang

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Posted 26 June 2011 - 06:02 PM

Robosaurus sheet says if you refresh rake with TF aktiv only the first to sixth tick gain the damage bonus from TF, but the seventh tick also gain the dmg bonus.

Edit: So actually I agree whit you (we both say multiplier is fixed for the whole Rake), and we both disagree with Robosaurus...


The last tick is again overwritten by the next rake (non-TF). Unless you let rake drop off and then reapply it, which at best is a very minor dps increase, and you risk letting rake fall off. Hope you and I are talking about the same thing.

#24 Farronski

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Posted 26 June 2011 - 07:44 PM

You have 450ms per rake application to get a DPS increase. If you are able to refresh rake after 225ms, which isn't really a problem (with ~25ms latency), you increase your Rake damage by 7.5%.

#25 Felics

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 12:11 PM

You have 450ms per rake application to get a DPS increase. If you are able to refresh rake after 225ms, which isn't really a problem (with ~25ms latency), you increase your Rake damage by 7.5%.


So your saying its when you have refreshed a rake with TF that you should let it fall off and instantly reapply so that the last tick is still affected by the 15% inc damage?

and can someone clarify if it is worth using FB above 25% so long as you keep SR and Rip up pls?

#26 Vaccine

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 07:23 AM

4T12 is more interesting, particularly now that Glyph of Berserk gives us a base 25 second Berserk. This is the one situation above 25% boss health where it's a definite advantage to use Ferocious Bite, though of course Rip and Savage Roar are still more important if they are about to fall off. There is currently discussion on whether or not it's better to cancel Berserk after 30 seconds so that Tiger's Fury isn't delayed. Updated information here would be appreciated.


Leafkiller passed on Yawning's testing on this point on TFD, and said it was a 300-400 DPS loss to cancel Berserk to TF.
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#27 MessiQ

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 10:35 AM

I'm still not convinced on the logic and math behind the Hit/Exp capping being as good as stack Mastery or stack Haste. I assume when you brought it up (someone a few posts up) you're referring to to Konungr's math? Some of his conclusions seem a bit flawed, theres a thread on TFD with some good analysis of it but the sims I'm running still seem to like Mastery more. The buff to Rake really did a number for it. It might start to fade out more once 4xT12 comes into play but that seems to favour Haste still and not really Exp/Hit capping. You should also consider Leafkillers Atramedes script when considering Mastery or no, as hit/exp/haste will not have any impact when time is spent away from the boss, wheras Mastery and Crit will, so the fights must be taken into account as well.

We're not talking vast differences mind but I still don't think its time to throw out all your mastery and go cap hit and exp just yet, and I don't think "to put bleeds up easier" is a good gearing method, you get a decent grace period on reapplication already.


By that logic though any fight could have a tweaked set of gear that is optimal for it. Since most info is coming from simmed results which assume ideal circumstances, this is why hit/exp is showing just as good as Haste and mastery. Remove the need to hit (as you say in a fight like Atramedes whenever you are off direct dmg to the boss then hit/exp are useless and mastery/crit will always win out as this improves your bleed dmg while you are running around. However the converse is also true, take a fight where you can't be behind the boss and then hit/Exp become so much better to have capped (or close to) making it easier to keep bleeds up but also benefitting from the direct dmg increase too. Other fights will fal in between these two options and so a compromise is most likely better (or just ignoring it and going with what you feel more comfortable with). Don't forget theoretical dps doesn't mean it's possible in a real fight, so you do have to adapt things to the current situation.

I just think this is Blizz's way of trying to make mastery stacking at the expense of everything else a thing of the past. I have noticed a few other classes are seeing their DoT's reduced at the gain of more direct damage....so i'm guessing this is a game-wide decision to not allow maximal dps while running away and avoiding fight mechanics.

#28 Robosaurus

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 12:01 PM

You have 450ms per rake application to get a DPS increase. If you are able to refresh rake after 225ms, which isn't really a problem (with ~25ms latency), you increase your Rake damage by 7.5%.


I agree with this, but would like to mention that if you let rake fall off you no longer have 3 GCD luxury to refresh rake (could affect your execution if you are on low hit/expertise). The point of the post was to show that even with direct damage / bleed damage rebalancing you should still be using TF line ups.
DoC for life. Because Wrath spam is too hard.

#29 Robosaurus

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 06:39 PM

UPDATED 20/8/11

Alysrazor 25 Caster Interrupts Heroic
Spoiler


Beth'tilak 25H Upstairs
Spoiler


Lord Rhyolith 25H
Spoiler


Shannox 25H
Spoiler


Baleroc 25
Spoiler


Majordomo Staghelm 25N
Spoiler


Ragnaros 25N
Spoiler


Ragnaros 25H
Spoiler

DoC for life. Because Wrath spam is too hard.

#30 Mihir

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 11:40 PM

On Majordomo it's possible to stand right in the middle of the scorpion, so you can both Shred and still get hit by the Flame Scythe.

#31 Chainfire

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Posted 05 July 2011 - 10:20 AM

On Majordomo it's possible to stand right in the middle of the scorpion, so you can both Shred and still get hit by the Flame Scythe.

It's a very narrow band, but it is possible.

During Cat Phase you should use swipe as a finisher for adds when Majordomo is in range.

What?

I think this is a typo. Either way, im managing to keep rake/rip up on the boss while taking down adds with mangle/shred and using combo points on FB. It's quite a tough fight to heal actually :)

Edit: Received a warning for spelling. Updated.

#32 Ilmatar

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Posted 05 July 2011 - 06:12 PM

On Majordomo, it's also possible to stand at the claw, and shred, and still be hit by the cleave. It's a bit easier to get to than fiddling around in the middle.

#33 Chainfire

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Posted 07 July 2011 - 09:55 AM

I am currently solo'ing beth'tilac's small spiders using a warlocks aoe stun ability and im doing stupidly high amounts of damage while completely trivializing a large part of the encounter.

I'm not sure if this has been thought through by blizz but TF + glyph means i can use 2xSwipe, TF, 3xSwipe and hold 30k dps doing this every 30s ie: every tiny spider spawn. If you happen to be running as feral for Beth'tilac definitely request that your RL let you try it out. Check up Puffin on Worldoflogs for a parse.

#34 Robosaurus

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 07:34 AM

Quick summary of PvP Gear

Using Mew, I found Agi ~ 3.6, secondary stats = 1.20~1.22. (Depends on gear setup. When you drop 2t11, mastery comes in line with all the other secondary stats) Agility is approximately 3x the value of secondary stats.
The 4set bonus (+movement speed) is active in Firelands since it is an outdoors instance!

Using some quick napkin math,(shoulder offset) 4x384 PvP >> 4x359 PvE (691.2dps) Subtract ~300dps for 4t11
4x371 PvP > 4x359 PVE by 174DPS with no bonus. 371 PvP gear is worse than PvE gear with a 4 piece.

384 PvP is worse than 372PvE (4piece) gear

The recommended strategy if you cannot get a 4piece is to pick up a 2x384 PvP bonus. Having a quick look at general guild progression, I doubt that many players will be unable to obtain tier pieces.

Have a look at PvP gear for filler slots if you are in a less-progressed guild. PvE bonuses are quite strong going into t12, and quite easy to obtain (VP cap).
DoC for life. Because Wrath spam is too hard.

#35 Ogbar

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Posted 11 July 2011 - 08:01 PM

This board tends to focus on 25, but for Shannox 10 (non-optimal configurations) stampede can be very useful for popping rageface off of someone being face raged. Glyphed feral charge is almost always off cooldown for face rage and you can close the distance and ravage in a single GCD. This is also very nice because then you are the one he focuses, and bark skin, NI, and SI can help a stressed raid healer quite a bit. It might be more of a statement on the other players in my guild, but I was breaking 95% percent of the face rages during our kill because of how quickly I could get that 30k hit onto him.

#36 Sabrelord

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Posted 12 July 2011 - 10:21 AM

I haven't seen any posts on the cat berserk rotation in awhile and curious what others are doing. With the glyphed Berserk now, I can't seem to find a good balance where I can keep enough energy to last through it. By only spamming shred and keeping SR up, I find myself running out of energy at ~10 seconds left. Pooling ~15 energy after each shred seems to be wasted time. Doing a normal rotation (SR, 5cp rip, rake, etc.) during berserk might be the way to go, but I just do not have any logs to look at due to my work schedule.

#37 Vaccine

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Posted 12 July 2011 - 10:52 AM

On Shannox (I assume heroic) we tried a bit with me breaking them but it was too much effort, especially given the large distances between Shannox and the Riplimb tank. We settled on having an Arcane Mage stay on Rageface the whole fight. If you're on normal you're probably burning him down first anyway so your normal shreds should break it without issue.

As for the above Berserk question. I don't see why you think running out of energy is a bad thing. If you're coming out of Berserk with energy then you're doing it wrong. When you say "By only spamming shred and keeping SR up" does that mean you're letting bleeds drop during Berserk?
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#38 Melthu

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Posted 12 July 2011 - 11:38 AM

There's no reason to change your rotation during Berserk aside from exercising a bit more freedom to Ferocious Bite. But you absolutely need to be keeping up Rip, SR, and Rake, and like Vaccine said you definitely want to drain your energy. Unlike Adrenaline Rush, where unspent energy at the end stays, the "energy gain" from Berserk only applies when you use your abilities, so ideally you want to get your energy as low as possible before it wears off.

#39 Sabrelord

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Posted 13 July 2011 - 01:37 PM

As for the above Berserk question. I don't see why you think running out of energy is a bad thing. If you're coming out of Berserk with energy then you're doing it wrong. When you say "By only spamming shred and keeping SR up" does that mean you're letting bleeds drop during Berserk?


I'm not saying running out of energy is a bad thing and I'm not talking about coming out of berserk with energy. I'm trying to determine the best use of berserk while it is active. Here are a couple quick dummy tests I did only for the duration of berserk:

Non-glyphed Berserk Tests
Test 1. Mangle->Rake->SR->TF->Berserk, Shred spam and refreshed rake once
21,442 dps

Test 2. Mangle->Rake->SR->TF->Berserk (non-glyphed), Keep 5cp Rip and Rake. Shred for combo
18,826 dps

Glyphed Berserk Tests
Test 1 through 5. Mangle->Rake->SR->TF->Berserk, Shred spam and refreshed rake once
18,631, 20,545, 15,797, 13,911, 19694 dps

Test 6-8. Test 2. Mangle->Rake->SR->TF->Berserk (non-glyphed), Keep 5cp Rip and Rake. Shred for combo
18,376, 18,836 and 18,301

What exactly are you seeing that says the Berserk glyph it the way to go now? I don't really see a difference in the dps between glyphed and non-glyphed berserk here. I understand from the 4.1 forums that Glyph of Tiger's Fury and Glyph of Berserk were close. I was using Tiger's Fury prior to 4.2. If we should be using Berserk now, but I'm running out of energy at ~10 seconds, it's basically just like the non-glyphed berserk. From the glyphed tests, it does seem that the shred spam is too unpredictable as well.

#40 Melthu

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Posted 13 July 2011 - 04:55 PM

For a variety of reasons, a very small sample of tests on a target dummy with no raid buffs or debuffs cannot give you accurate feedback. Look at your results: in just 5 runs your dps swung by nearly 50% between the high and the low parse. Testing things like glyphs or slight rotation tweeks requires many thousands of run in a simulator to even think of using the results as a guide.




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