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[Feral-Cat] 4.2 Fire Cat funtimes (OLD)


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#41 Vaccine

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Posted 14 July 2011 - 11:00 AM

I'm not saying running out of energy is a bad thing and I'm not talking about coming out of berserk with energy. I'm trying to determine the best use of berserk while it is active. Here are a couple quick dummy tests I did only for the duration of berserk:

What exactly are you seeing that says the Berserk glyph it the way to go now? I don't really see a difference in the dps between glyphed and non-glyphed berserk here. I understand from the 4.1 forums that Glyph of Tiger's Fury and Glyph of Berserk were close. I was using Tiger's Fury prior to 4.2. If we should be using Berserk now, but I'm running out of energy at ~10 seconds, it's basically just like the non-glyphed berserk. From the glyphed tests, it does seem that the shred spam is too unpredictable as well.


As Melthu points out, your 10 minutes of target dummy testing mean nothing. We're lucky as cats to have a very good simulator, Mew, available to us to test just this sort of thing, I'd suggest you grab it and throw in your stats and test swapping Berserk and TF glyphs till you're satisfied.

Even if you run out of energy 10 seconds before Berserk ends, its not 'basically like non-glyphed berserk'. You still get 50% ability costs for that duration. You're still able to do double the attacks during that period you'd do if you didn't glyph Berserk. I don't understand your comment about 'spamming shred is too unpredictable' either. The best use of Berserk as you ask, is just keep up your normal rotation. Keep your bleeds ticking along, the difference is you get to spam more filler, and as a result generate a lot more CP that lets you easily throw in FBs without risking SR/Rip downtime.

I think most switched to Berserk after 4.1 hit. TF glyph desyncs it with Rake/Synapse Springs which can cause some issues and make it a lot more fiddly to use, having to judge if its a gain when TF comes up to overwrite your existing Rake. 4.2 buffed it even more with the addition of an extra 5 seconds on the end (which is still a few extra Shreds) not to mention the impending 4 piece T12 which some may even have already if they lucked out in BH.
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#42 TheJinchuuriki

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Posted 16 July 2011 - 12:00 AM

Non-glyphed Berserk Tests
Test 1. Mangle->Rake->SR->TF->Berserk, Shred spam and refreshed rake once
21,442 dps

Test 2. Mangle->Rake->SR->TF->Berserk (non-glyphed), Keep 5cp Rip and Rake. Shred for combo
18,826 dps

Glyphed Berserk Tests
Test 1 through 5. Mangle->Rake->SR->TF->Berserk, Shred spam and refreshed rake once
18,631, 20,545, 15,797, 13,911, 19694 dps

Test 6-8. Test 2. Mangle->Rake->SR->TF->Berserk (non-glyphed), Keep 5cp Rip and Rake. Shred for combo
18,376, 18,836 and 18,301

I think that open is lacking ravage. My ideal open is as follows:

Faerie Fire-->Feral Charge-->Mangle-->Rake-->Savage Roar-->Tiger's Fury-->Shred-->Ravage-->Berserk+Shred-->Rip-->Shred spam maintaining timers.
With Glyph of Berserk I often times find myself NOT at 0 energy at the conclusion of berserk, and if heroism is used off the pull in conjunction with this open I use Ferocious Bite during the berserk-ed shred spam constantly while still hovering above 30 energy.

To be honest I lack faith in the decision of Shred>Ferocious Bite during normal berserk; it seems that if Ferocious Bite has more DpE than shred it should be the better choice vs shredding past 5, even if it causes you to run shy on energy(so long as you can maintain other timers); unless the extra energy consumed by Ferocious bite isn't halved by berserk causing shred to have a higher DpE during berserk. Can anyone shed some light on this?

If shred has more damage per energy than ferocious bite during berserk, than shred spam would be the best dpE way to spend your berserk, and therefor the best choice supposing you are limited by energy during your berserk. However, if you are NOT limited on energy during your berserk(either due to clear-casting procs, heroism, on use haste, etc.) ferocious bite is more damage per second, and therefore the best choice supposing you are limited by time ie the berserk duration.



Has anyone done a breakdown of new trinkets compared to previous BiS?

#43 Vaccine

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Posted 16 July 2011 - 10:55 AM

Your first 3 paragraphs could be answered from either reading the OP, the Feral Q+A thread, the discussion in this meaty 2 page thread or spending 10 seconds on a target dummy.

The trinket discussion, I don't think thats been brought up on EJ this time around so this is what I've simmed using Mew and assuming a regular 4xT11 Mastery stacking setup.
1)
2)
3)
4)
5)
6)
7)
8)
9) *

*Assuming the Equip effet of Rickets is just fluff and not a combat ability.

The proc on Unheeded is incredibly strong especially after the weapon % buffs we got on abilities in 4.2, which is why its still up there as a 359. I've read a lot of complaints about Ferals in arena recently and lots seem to hinge around this trinket so I wouldn't be suprised if it took a major hit shortly, but for now its above the 378 trinkets.


Now moving into a 4pt12, hit/exp capped, haste stacking setup I simmed as roughly BIS:
1)
2)
3)
4)
5)
6)
7)
8) *
9)

Reasonings for those changes in the bottom half, the rep one becomes more devalued due to losing the 2xT11 bonus. The other changes are all due to the profile I used where I probably had a slight bit too much haste compared to crit, so crit was better. Evening these out a little would likely see Prestors>EotC>Ricketts again but there was so little difference, about 50 dps between 8th and 6th in this profile, its going to make very little difference. Also if you're using 4xT12 you've probably got access to UW+ one of the others already.
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#44 david0925

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Posted 16 July 2011 - 05:21 PM

I have been playing with various simulators and have noticed that my haste values changes dramatically on various settings (from close to half of Agility value to less than 10%). However, there isn't any feral haste "Breakpoint" that I am aware of. Is there any mechanic that I am ignorant about?

#45 Torzak

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Posted 16 July 2011 - 05:23 PM

I just went over simulationcraft's (420-1 & 420-2) priority list for Feral Cat.

This line (K) seems to me that it does not belong:

K ferocious_bite,if=buff.combo_points.stack>=5&dot.rip.remains>5.0&buff.savage_roar.remains>=3.0

When the only conditions being checked are Rip's duration and Savage Roar's duration, I don't think there's ever a time you want to Ferocious Bite when Rip has 5secs and Roar has 3secs remaining.

There is another priority lower down (Q) that is pretty much the same thing except the duration numbers for Rip and Roar look a lot more accurate.

Q ferocious_bite,if=buff.combo_points.stack>=5&dot.rip.remains>=14.0&buff.savage_roar.remains>=10.0


#46 Zimeron

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Posted 16 July 2011 - 08:57 PM

I just went over simulationcraft's (420-1 & 420-2) priority list for Feral Cat.

This line (K) seems to me that it does not belong:

K ferocious_bite,if=buff.combo_points.stack>=5&dot.rip.remains>5.0&buff.savage_roar.remains>=3.0

When the only conditions being checked are Rip's duration and Savage Roar's duration, I don't think there's ever a time you want to Ferocious Bite when Rip has 5secs and Roar has 3secs remaining.

There is another priority lower down (Q) that is pretty much the same thing except the duration numbers for Rip and Roar look a lot more accurate.

Q ferocious_bite,if=buff.combo_points.stack>=5&dot.rip.remains>=14.0&buff.savage_roar.remains>=10.0

Action K should have had the conditional of buff.berserk.up on it as well. This results in roughly a 300 dps gain for T12H. Thanks for pointing this out.

#47 Torzak

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Posted 17 July 2011 - 12:16 AM

I assume you'd want another condition to check for 4pc T12 in conjunction to the buff.berserk.up?

Without the 4pc T12 and under Berserk conditions, I think you would want to just continue to Shred until Rip wears off some 5 or less secs later.

#48 TheJinchuuriki

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Posted 17 July 2011 - 04:46 AM

To be honest I lack faith in the decision of Shred>Ferocious Bite during normal berserk; it seems that if Ferocious Bite has more DpE than shred it should be the better choice vs shredding past 5, even if it causes you to run shy on energy(so long as you can maintain other timers); unless the extra energy consumed by Ferocious bite isn't halved by berserk causing shred to have a higher DpE during berserk.

If shred has more damage per energy than ferocious bite during berserk, than shred spam would be the best dpE way to spend your berserk, and therefor the best choice supposing you are limited by energy during your berserk. However, if you are NOT limited on energy during your berserk(either due to clear-casting procs, heroism, on use haste, etc.) ferocious bite is more damage per second, and therefore the best choice supposing you are limited by time ie the berserk duration.


I have concluded that berserk halves ONLY the initial cost of ferocious bite, therefor reducing its highest possible energy cost from 50 to 37.5.
Note1: that while shred doubles in dpe during berserk a full energy ferocious bite only increases by 1.33

Note2: These calculations source from Simcraft t12 (no scale factors.)
W/O Berserk
[TABLE]Shred DPE: 636.5
No surplus energy
Ferocious Bite DPE: 846.6
Full energy
Ferocious Bite DPE: 846.6
[/TABLE]

With Berserk
[TABLE]Shred DPE: 1273.1
No surplus energy
Ferocious Bite DPE: 1693.2
Full energy
Ferocious Bite DPE: 1126.9
[/TABLE]

In short, full energy fb's should be avoided and replaced by small energy fb's whenever possible during berserk, outside of berserk the dpe of ferocious bite is consistent regardless of how much energy was spent. (the decision of how much energy for non-berserk ferocious bite would be based on the amount of surplus energy you speculate between rolling rip+rake)

Thanks to Lolich for assistance with computations

#49 Nelkanor

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 09:24 AM

Berserk reduction only applying to the ability cost of Ferocious Bite has ever been like this, or at least for the recent past that I know of. Also, according to the official patch notes (and anecdotal in-game experience):

"Ferocious Bite damage has been increased by 15%. In addition, its base cost has been reduced to 25 energy and it can use up to 25 energy, for up to a 100% damage increase."

Perhaps you are confusing the max energy consumed by FB with what it was while the ability was still tested on the PTR. So maybe you need to reconsider your calculations.

Edit: Looking at the in-game tooltip, it still states a maximum of 35 Energy converted. I tested it in-game on a dummy doing 5CP FB's from 100 Energy. Ended up at around 57-58, which seems normal for energy regenerated up from 50 in this time frame, namely the patch notes seem to be the correct ones. I have quite a high latency currently and will retest in the evening.

Edit2: After numerous tests on a dummy without any gear on (0% haste, latency at 91ms world), I never saw a number lower than 55 Energy at the end of an FB. Energy regeneration to the best that I could measure it is around 10-11 energy per second.

#50 Leafkiller

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 04:07 AM

Action K should have had the conditional of buff.berserk.up on it as well. This results in roughly a 300 dps gain for T12H. Thanks for pointing this out.


I posted on that when change 8900 was made on June 28th (r8900 - simulationcraft - World of Warcraft DPS Simulator - Google Project Hosting). At that time delmortis1 had just finished incorporating the rotation we were using in Mew, but he made a few mistakes including that one. Either he missed my comments or ignored them as no response was made to them. I posted on the most recent change (that fixes the FB logic) to point out the other mistakes are still there: r9059 - simulationcraft - World of Warcraft DPS Simulator - Google Project Hosting

On the subject of FB during Berserk vs. shred spamming. Prior to getting the 4 piece T12 set bonus simulations show it as a slight dps gain as gear improves, but it is trivial. Once you get the 4 piece T12 bonus, the aggressive FB conditional:
if (isBerserkUp) {
		if (cps == 5 && energy > status.getFerociousBiteCost() && ripRemaining > 5 && srRemaining >= 3)
			return Action.BITE;
	}
tests out as a 650 dps increase in Mew (ilvl 391 sample profile).

I double checked the Mew code, and it already accounts for Berserk only halving the base cost of FB and not the extra energy. Also, with the base cost of FB at 25 energy, the numbers should be 50/38 (not 60/48).

#51 TheJinchuuriki

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 08:57 AM

So with it in mind that FB spamming with 4piece tier 12 is a gain in dps, I would like to also observe that FB's dpe is significantly lower with high energy bites. Do you think we would consider intentionally starting berserk with a medium-small sized energy pool so that our full berserk+FB spam is more energy efficient? It seems to be something like

Option A: Begin berserk w/ a full energy bar, apply rip, being shred--->bite spam crunching away the full energy bar with massive energy costs ferocious bites.

Option B: Begin berserk w/ ~40 energy, apply rip, begin shred--->bite spam with 12 energy cost bites (DPE: 1693.2) vs (DPE: 1126.9).

In both scenarios we start with a full energy bar and observe the damage done for ~ 46 seconds (assuming you can keep up 1 finsher every 5 gcds), at the end of each 46 second time frame we end with zero energy and berserk expired.

Napkin math suggests that with Ooc procs of heroism+ higher energy regen it would be possible to hover at a steady amount of energy; the napkin math simply put is something to the just of 'you generate a virtual 18 energy per second, your average 10 abilities should be something like x7 shred x1 rake x2 fb, if all goes according to plan you spend 20 energy per shred 12.5 per fb and 17.5 per rake, based on this you should more or less break even.'

With this in mind, if we view the full berserk + 5 seconds surrounding, our two options at a second glance are as follows:

Option A: Begin berserk w/ full energy bar, burn through present energy at a decent dpe, never run out of energy and continue to hit5+fb for the full duration of berserk. After berserk has expired, begin normal rotation w/ zero energy bar. Note for this option the extra time spent outside of berserk is after berserk's duration has ended.

Option B: Spend about 4-5 seconds shred/raking down energy, berserk@12 energy and FB, continue to berserk w/ fb spams at most efficient rate of dpe.


In both of these options we are not limited to the amount of energy during berserk, in so much that once our energy is low it should more or less stabilize with the low energy bite spam. In option A we spend the same number of gcds during berserk doing the same actions as option B, in both scenarios we ramp to 5---> FB. The difference in berserks damage done is over the first four bites; since the first four bites would be high-energy bites(it would take roughly this many to dump the excess starting energy.) In option A these starting bites will deal ~twice as much dmg at a lower dpe. Alternatively, with option B we maintain the same number bites/shreds etc during berserk but with higher dpe on the bites and slightly lower dps. The next comparison of these two options are the 5 seconds before or after the berserk. In both scenarios we start with a full energy bar and observe the damage done for ~ 46 seconds (assuming you can keep up 1 finsher every 5 gcds), at the end of each 46 second time frame we end with zero energy and berserk expired.

Option A: Damage of typical zerked fb spam rotation + roughly 4 fb's worth of damage in the extra energy burned enhancing bites. 5 seconds worth of energy + consumption after zerk has expired totaling in ~ 1shred+1rake.

Option B: ~4shreds + rake to dump initial energy +Damage of a typical zerked fb spam rotation.

When everything is said and done, it seems Option A has 4 fb's worth of dmg vs Option B's 3-4shreds. It seems to me the best way to berserk with the conditions previously stated (4p t12 + generally energy neutral when at low energy) is to go with Option A; starting with full energy bar and slowly grinding it down profiting a little bonus damage along the way.

Note: This is assuming your energy-neutral. If for whatever reason your energy-positive you may considering starting your zerk with ~100 or 90 energy.

Thanks again to lolich for assistance w/ computations.
Lolich: 'Either way your gaining/losing as much damage as 1 white attack, who cares how you berserk?'
We do lolich, we do.

#52 Chainfire

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 10:54 AM

Note: I can hear alot of people crying out "don't post threads like this, use a simulator, its situational", but im my unfortunate experience theory-crafting is done on patchwerk fights where interference is kept to a minimum, threads like these don't often include a proper analysis or followup posts and simulators are currently doing VERY odd things.

I have been trying to get a grasp on stat weightings for ferals going into 378/384 gear to get a better feel for what i should be aiming for as a secondary stat and i'm coming across something very odd. I have yet to find a conclusive set of simulations to show which stat would be our prio when it comes to BiS gear.

1) Do we go for hit/expertise caps?
2) When does mastery become obsolete, and what is it replaced by?
3) What are the stat weightings assuming 2pt12/2pt11?
4) What are the stat weightings assuming 4pt12 Bis?

When i run sims with any gear (my own, 372, 378_2piece, 384_4piece) i get a set of stat weightings that vary depending on what seems to be the Matrix Restabalizer trinket. Sure, it boosts our highest stat but i honestly shouldn't see haste go from between 0.8 to 2.2 dps-increase-per-point by simply changing my haste/crit from 1314/1315 to 1315/1314 with that trinket equipped. Something is going wrong here, i'm no where near any breakpoints, and im pretty sure that besides the unrealistic crit breakpoint and some haste threshold where you're burning shred every gcd without loosing energy, there are no reachable caps on haste/mastery/crit with current gear. There are also no diminishing returns on any of those stats (confirm?) and all have a linear-scaling dps increase.

I ran baleroc tonight using a hit/expertise capped spec with emphasis on haste > crit > mastery and mew simulations came up with "27928.77" dps on a static fight. I have gone over the mew settings multiple times, emulating the baleroc fight completely and it still doesnt come close to the 28500 i managed while juggling fight mechanics. Note that i have 12.3 mastery while top ferals on that fight are sitting between 18.5 - 21.0 and above, at least haste + hit/exp is somewhat viable in practice.

To help answer some of the questions: (This is still in discussion, do not take this as final conclusions.)
1) Yes there is a point where hit/expertise outplays mastery and is a good idea to cap, it seems to be around the time you break your 4piecet11 and go for 2piecet12 due to the shred buff, SR buff and 2piece bonus.

2) Mastery has dropped value in 4.1, it will be replaced by crit and haste as late as when you break your 2piecet11(rake increase) or as early as achieving some threshold where haste stacking on gear becomes a reality.

3 + 4) Simulations on mew/simcraft

As a footnote, please don't shoot this down with nitpicking arguments on the validity of my findings. Some of it might be wrong and i acknowledge that. I simply want to open a (hopefully) conclusive discussion on viable stat weightings as well as question the mew simulator's implementation of the Matrix trinket.

~Puffin

#53 Helistar

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 11:26 AM

[Sure, it boosts our highest stat but i honestly shouldn't see haste go from between 0.8 to 2.2 dps-increase-per-point by simply changing my haste/crit from 1314/1315 to 1315/1314 with that trinket equipped. Something is going wrong here, i'm no where near any breakpoints, and im pretty sure that besides the unrealistic crit breakpoint and some haste threshold where you're burning shred every gcd without loosing energy, there are no reachable caps on haste/mastery/crit with current gear. There are also no diminishing returns on any of those stats (confirm?) and all have a linear-scaling dps increase.


There could be bad things happening with the rotation. What I mean is that it's possible that a change in haste/crit results in much bigger changes than expected (rip/25%FB alignments, better SR/DoT refreshes). You should look at the damage distribution to see what's going on, because 0.8 -> 2.2 is huge (and I think more likely a bug, but checking the output in detail can give hints). BTW stat scaling is most definitely not linear due to the CP management. With the exception of mastery, all other stats affect CP generation (i.e. the rotation).

I ran baleroc tonight using a hit/expertise capped spec with emphasis on haste > crit > mastery and mew simulations came up with "27928.77" dps on a static fight. I have gone over the mew settings multiple times, emulating the baleroc fight completely and it still doesnt come close to the 28500 i managed while juggling fight mechanics.


The result from Mew is always XXXXX dps +- YYY standard deviation. How big is the YYY in your case? Usually it's around 600-700 dps, which makes your value perfectly compatible with the mew result. You should check the number of OOC procs, and crits% to see if your log can be compared directly with an averaged simulation.

#54 Vaccine

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 11:39 AM

@TheJinchuurik

When you say FB spamming do you mean doing 1 Shred, 1 FB, 1 Shred, 1 FB etc... or just doing 5 CP FBs? If the former, where did you see the math on this? I've not read anything yet about 1 CP FBs. If the latter, your energy regeneration calculations for the 100 energy option seems way off, you're not going to get in 4 FBS and 5 CPS between each one at over 50 energy.

Your last few posts seem to be desperately trying to overcomplicate things. You go into Berserk with more energy, you're going to do more damage, regardless of the DPE. Whilst you may obtain a better DPE for Berserk going in with lower energy, the energy defecit is spent outside of Berserk so it makes the whole thing pointless anyway.
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#55 Chainfire

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 01:25 PM

@TheJinchuurik
Your last few posts seem to be desperately trying to overcomplicate things. You go into Berserk with more energy, you're going to do more damage, regardless of the DPE. Whilst you may obtain a better DPE for Berserk going in with lower energy, the energy defecit is spent outside of Berserk so it makes the whole thing pointless anyway.


Junchuurik is right, most of the time you roll TF straight into a berzerk so that you can spam shred like mad, abusing the uptime on TF and highest DPE of Shred. (Note that 9 times out of 10 you will need to use cower on cd as your agro if you do this on the pull is retardedly high, 24k threat/second makes our maintank whine like a 12yo girl).

It would also be pointless to do it with low energy as you are inferring that your TF was not recently used, leading to even more downtime on TF than berzerk already provides.

Helistar, i'm going to rule out my parse on baleroc as simple luck. The stddev of the simulation was around 670 so i suppose its plausible that i just got ridiculously lucky with procs + crits (just went over it, every crit value was less than simulated except rip which was 54% instead of 45%.. giving me enough of a boost to possibly cover the dps gap). This still doesn't accurately show why the mew simulator jumps between values so quickly. I understand on a few parses it might sync up abilities but surely not that much.

#56 byjiang

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 02:05 PM

From testings on the newest mew, the DPE of shred is ~650, and the DPE of 5cpFB is ~1070. Test conditions: fully raid buffed, 378 ilvl, hit/exp capped.

These numbers correspond to what Leafkiller posted above. Without 4pT12, shred and 5cpFB is roughly equivalent during berserk, as the DPE of shred is doubled, but the DPE of FB is only 1.33 times normal DPE. With 4pT12, 5cpFB is ahead obviously.

As for entering berserk with low energy, any energy present when you start berserk is effectively doubled. Apparently you want to enter berserk with 100 energy (120 with Primal Madness) and end berserk with 0 energy. And TF right before berserk to decrease TF downtime. If having trouble spending energy spamming shred, 5cpFB should do it.

#57 Leafkiller

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 05:20 PM

Unless you are using a Berserk right at the end of a phase/fight, you should never enter it with low energy because you should be casting it with TF. Even without the T12 4 piece bonus, with everyone using GoBerserk, if you don't overlap Berserk with TF then you will delay the next TF (6 seconds TF + 25 seconds Berserk). I macroed TF into my Berserk key and hit that when I want to Berserk (I still have a TF key for when I do not want to cast Berserk).

On the FB combo point question, Yawning did some testing during the 4.2 beta and found the optimum dps gain came from 5 combo points FBs. It is easy enough to test if you want to - just make a copy of the sim script, edit it and load it as a custom script.

Chainfire - your results on a single fight are not meaningful. Mew measures the average of many fights (10,000 is the default value). I just ran a quick sim on a 378 hit/exp capped profile. The first three lines in Mew's output:

DPS: 30246.12774 +/- 13.29971
Min/Max DPS: 27530.59333 / 33078.03
StdDev: 678.5566

The data is telling us that the lowest dps out of the 10k tries was 27530.59333, while the highest was 33078.03, close to +-10%. Your performance puts you close to the lower border of 1 standard deviation, which accounts for 68% of the fights. Furthermore, Mew never makes a mistake when playing, has no issues with lag and is not moving from side to side which you are doing on that fight.

As far as stat weights go, they are close enough now to not matter. When RNG can move your dps up or down by 2k+ on a given fight, and screwing up your rotation can cause even more issues, the small theoretical dps difference for different reforging schemes is meaningless. I am favoring higher hit/exp builds these days because it makes the rotation more consistent - but that is a play style preference. Repeating something I say often: for a feral, time spent worrying about the secondary stats is wasted time. You will be much better served focusing on fight mechanics and optimizing what you do for each encounter.

#58 TheJinchuuriki

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 05:43 PM

Unless you are using a Berserk right at the end of a phase/fight, you should never enter it with low energy because you should be casting it with TF. Even without the T12 4 piece bonus, with everyone using GoBerserk, if you don't overlap Berserk with TF then you will delay the next TF (6 seconds TF + 25 seconds Berserk). I macroed TF into my Berserk key and hit that when I want to Berserk (I still have a TF key for when I do not want to cast Berserk).

On the FB combo point question, Yawning did some testing during the 4.2 beta and found the optimum dps gain came from 5 combo points FBs. It is easy enough to test if you want to - just make a copy of the sim script, edit it and load it as a custom script.


You do not have to follow up tiger's fury with berserk to preserve it's dps, you merely have to continue dpsing without missing any gcds and the alternate rotations I suggested both did such. Without 4p t12 the 4-5 second shouldn't cause you to have downtime on TF, it would be used after your zerk has concluded. However with 4p t12 having a 41second berserk vs 25 second berserk you do to some extent lose a small amount of TF up-time for every gcd between the use of TF and berserk. I didn't math this out, however it would just favor the already superior zerk with full energy bar.
The calculation was based on 5 combo point ferocious bites assuming the average 10 gcds were rake /shred / shred /shred/ fb / shred / shred / shred / shred / fb the energy costs of this rotation are 17.5 for shred, 12.5 for FB and 20 for shred, the average of these three over the coarse of berserk should be something close to the 18 energy per second you effectively have from heroism-ed berserk.

Please also note that the two berserk options (dump energy before or start w/ full energy bar) were only some 2000ish damage apart from one another; and once again if you are at risk of generating energy during berserk it would be best to start at ~100-90 energy.

To be honest these things (outside of tiger's fury dps being maintained by pushing gcds) were all stated in my previous post.

#59 byjiang

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 06:38 PM

You do not have to follow up tiger's fury with berserk to preserve it's dps, you merely have to continue dpsing without missing any gcds and the alternate rotations I suggested both did such.


Without 4pT12, TF 0~5s before berserk doesn't lose you TF uptime, but you need to enter berserk with the highest energy possible. Thus it is ideal to spend your energy to ~25 then TF+berserk. If you pre-TF you either enter berserk with less energy or do nothing and waste the 15% bonus damage.

Please also note that the two berserk options (dump energy before or start w/ full energy bar) were only some 2000ish damage apart from one another; and once again if you are at risk of generating energy during berserk it would be best to start at ~100-90 energy.


Can't quite get what you are saying. If you are referring to the options A/B in your previous post, it is very obvious that starting berserk with anything less than a full energy bar is a dps loss. There is no way your "higher DPE FB" is going to make up for the effective energy lost in not having a full energy bar. IMO there is no reason to discuss "how much energy to pool before berserk".

To be honest these things (outside of tiger's fury dps being maintained by pushing gcds) were all stated in my previous post.


I believe Leafkiller summed things up pretty well.

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 06:55 PM

@TheJinchuuriki: I thought I made it quite clear but evidently from your PM it wasn't. Lets boil down your scenarios to their basic elements. You're suggesting you get a better DPE for Berserk by using less energy for the conversion. You've used minus 60 energy as your starting point. That energy must be spent outside of Berserk then, as opposed to the model spending it inside Berserk. That 60 energy will be spent on non-Berserk Shreds instead. Therefore without doing any math other than knowing that the conversion on FB is better DPE than Shred, I already know which is the better scenario.

The other point I was trying to make was that even were your 40 energy tactic an overall DPE gain during Berserk, you have less energy. Even a slight increase in DPE would be massively outweiged by the fact the other scenario has 60 extra E in that equation.

I've tested your theory on TF, I did a 100 enregy TF and tried to use every GCD and even proccing 2x OOC during it I still couldn't spend energy on every CD on Shred. If you TF then Berserk (in a macro as Leafkiller suggests) you get to use every GCD.

I'm also not sure your DPE values are correct from the previous page, did you try the same in Mew? Trying a few sample sets I'm getting FB over 2-300 more DPE than you have it at.
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