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[Prot] 4.2 in flames


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#21 iNs1d3tRiP

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 02:40 PM

I think that Solid Ocean Sapphire and Defender's Demonseye should be added to the gem area. Once we reach cap, we're probably going to want to start converting over-cap mastery to stamina, and gemming is the most versatile way to do it.


The post makes reference to an avoidance vs "sta stacking" perspective. I'm very interested in seeing those conclusions. At first I thought that avoidance may finally win out after two expansions of gemming sta, but after further reflection I'm not so sure anymore...

#22 Ronark

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 05:06 PM

The post makes reference to an avoidance vs "sta stacking" perspective. I'm very interested in seeing those conclusions. At first I thought that avoidance may finally win out after two expansions of gemming sta, but after further reflection I'm not so sure anymore...


In a way, it does through Mastery. It is better to stack Avoidance (Block in this case) to reach a full CTC, after which point you start gearing for Stamina. It just happens that per point, Mastery is better than Dodge and Parry.

#23 saboya

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 05:56 PM

The post makes reference to an avoidance vs "sta stacking" perspective. I'm very interested in seeing those conclusions. At first I thought that avoidance may finally win out after two expansions of gemming sta, but after further reflection I'm not so sure anymore...

There are a number of reaons why that is true, and it mostly has to do with encounter design and healing mechanics than tanking per se. You needed that extra HP pool in ICC, and it scaled A LOT better than any other avoidance stat you might had (especially considering Chill of the Throne and the +5/10/.../30% buff). You didn't need to worry about saving your healers some mana. Now it's a totally different story.

Still, some extra Stamina was desirable for some encounters this content. It just so happens Mastery was far better for most of them. Tanking stats are always situational.

#24 billmao

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 08:41 AM

This is directed at the survival section:

The 4.2 HS differs from the other cooldowns in that it almost only applies to auto attacks. A large burst damaging ability is rarely blockable (exceptions may be certain passive buff on bosses such as Cho'gal worship and the likes). Before warriors have a magic damage reduction component on their Shield Block ability they used it on the CD, and I would expect the 4.2 HS to be utilized in the same way.

#25 Lumines-EU

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 12:08 PM

A large burst damaging ability is rarely blockable (exceptions may be certain passive buff on bosses such as Cho'gal worship and the likes).


That's not really the point, though. The point is to, for example, use it to reduce a melee attack which occurs in conjunction with or shortly after the unavoidable burst, to reduce part of the spike damage. An obvious example from the current tier would be using it immediately after a Crackle while the add tank on Nefarian (or after a breath in phase 1); it's neither the Crackle itself or the add melee damage in isolation which endanger you, it's the combination of them both. Mitigating one portion of that damage smartly is still superior to using Holy Shield on cooldown without considering when it will be most useful.

#26 billmao

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 01:49 PM

That's not really the point, though. The point is to, for example, use it to reduce a melee attack which occurs in conjunction with or shortly after the unavoidable burst, to reduce part of the spike damage. An obvious example from the current tier would be using it immediately after a Crackle while the add tank on Nefarian (or after a breath in phase 1); it's neither the Crackle itself or the add melee damage in isolation which endanger you, it's the combination of them both. Mitigating one portion of that damage smartly is still superior to using Holy Shield on cooldown without considering when it will be most useful.


I am inclined to agree with you but two factors still concern me.

First, I don’t know if making a habit of using multiple damage reduction cooldowns in conjunction is good practice. They reduce each other’s effectiveness, while leaving you with one less cooldown handy.

Second, with HS on such a short CD, how long are we willing to wait to time it with a specific event? While I am willing to put HS on hold 5~8 seconds at max for some healer-compromising event, I wouldn’t go beyond that while the boss continues to autoattack me. Waiting 10 second every CD would already average out to be 5% block damage reduction, only half of what HS used to be.

#27 iNs1d3tRiP

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 03:18 PM

First, I don’t know if making a habit of using multiple damage reduction cooldowns in conjunction is good practice. They reduce each other’s effectiveness, while leaving you with one less cooldown handy.


That isnt entirely true. If you use a DP, then it is always a 20% damage reduction of what you would have taken. It may reduce a smaller "gross" amount of damage, but that is only because you are taking less damage to begin with. For example, if you are going to take 100 damage and you use DP then it will reduce damage by 20 but if you take 10 damage then it reduces damage taken only by 2. When you stack our damage reducing effects they appear to be less effective because they are multiplicative instead of additive (for example DP and AD would be .8*.8=.64 meaning that each only "contributes 18% damage reduction" and I'm assuming is what you are referring to). However, this is completely the wrong way to look at it because it is extremely misleading. If we take our previous number of 100 damage being reduced by DP and then tack on AD reducing the 80 that would have been dealt, then we get 64 which is 16 damage reduction. The reduction from 80 damage to 64 damage is still a flat 20% damage reduction and is absolutely no different from being dealt 100 damage reducing it to 80. The only difference is the larger hit.

Therefore, you can only say that it reduces the effectiveness if you are going to also say that the effectiveness of cooldowns is diminished, if you are taking less damage, which is a fair assumption, but correct me if I'm wrong, I don't think CDs are designed to reduce overall damage taken. It seems to me they should be saved more for times when there are difficult circumstances. In otherwords, CDs are meant to save your life and the CD that saves your life is effective no matter how "little" damage it mitigated.

There really isn't any other way to think of this unless you are going to say that speccing into prot reduces the effectiveness of CDs. After all, wearing armor, speccing into sanctuary, and blocking (especially with old holy shield) all reduce the effectivness of DP, AD, and GoAK in exactly the same way as stacking DP and AD together. You don't charge into battle naked just because it reduces the "effectiveness" of your cooldowns.

Second, with HS on such a short CD, how long are we willing to wait to time it with a specific event? While I am willing to put HS on hold 5~8 seconds at max for some healer-compromising event, I wouldn’t go beyond that while the boss continues to autoattack me. Waiting 10 second every CD would already average out to be 5% block damage reduction, only half of what HS used to be.



I think this is also the wrong way to look at it. Yes, our overall damage taken will go up, but just because you end up taking more damage over the course of a fight doesn't mean that the New HS won't be more valuable. The New HS may save you in ways that the old one couldn't have just because it reduces 10% more damage at times where it may be needed more. I would rather HS average out to be 1% block damage reduction if it meant saving me from dying at least one time throughout the course of a fight. If I wasn't going to die, then the amount of damage I took is already trivial.

And that's what it comes down to. Do you care more about reducing trivial damage or saving your ass? Yea, the dps can always deal more damage, the healers can always have higher healing output, we can always gear to take less damage, but 95% of that is just bolstering our epeen. I do realize some classes have to worry about being viable for heroics. If a mage (in any spec) can't deal damage on par with other dps classes then the class has a problem for raiding. Pally tanks do not face that problem, because the goal of a tank isn't to reduce the amount of damage taken, it is to be able to absorb damage in a way that can be healed through while holding aggro. The important thing about a tank isn't reducing damage, but not dying. Give me a 900 trillion health pool on an arcane mage and I'd prove to be a pretty effective tank so long as I can hold aggro.

#28 Capstone

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 06:26 PM

I think this is also the wrong way to look at it. Yes, our overall damage taken will go up, but just because you end up taking more damage over the course of a fight doesn't mean that the New HS won't be more valuable. The New HS may save you in ways that the old one couldn't have just because it reduces 10% more damage at times where it may be needed more. I would rather HS average out to be 1% block damage reduction if it meant saving me from dying at least one time throughout the course of a fight. If I wasn't going to die, then the amount of damage I took is already trivial.


I'd be inclined to agree with you here; unfortunately they chose to make HS such a short CD and such a small increase that the chance of it actually saving you from dying is going to be fairly rare. If they felt they needed to make HS an active ability, I wish they had made it stronger with a longer cooldown so that it would actually feel like a meaningful button to push, instead of something that seems to beg you to macro it.

#29 Meloree

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 07:20 PM

The difference between difficult and trivial is made up of small increases.

When one block caps, and evaluates burst for given situations, Holy Shield will either be a sufficient cooldown on it's own, or it will not. I suspect that it will turn out to be a sufficient cooldown more often than most would give it credit for. In situations where DP is a marginal cooldown, DP plus Holy Shield will be significantly better than marginal.

Or you could just choose to use it as your own personal shotgun. Healers switching to the raid for a couple of GCDs? Pre-emptively Holy Shield, because you can. Good, pro-active use of Holy Shield will make a material difference in your survivability, and in how easy it is to heal you, just like good proactive use of WoG does. WoG is a drop in the bucket on total healing done, and HS is a drop in the bucket on total damage reduction, but so what? Either one mitigates enough important damage (directly or by healing it back) to make a material difference in your healability and survivability.

#30 billmao

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 04:43 AM

Therefore, you can only say that it reduces the effectiveness if you are going to also say that the effectiveness of cooldowns is diminished, if you are taking less damage, which is a fair assumption, but correct me if I'm wrong, I don't think CDs are designed to reduce overall damage taken. It seems to me they should be saved more for times when there are difficult circumstances. In otherwords, CDs are meant to save your life and the CD that saves your life is effective no matter how "little" damage it mitigated.

...

And that's what it comes down to. Do you care more about reducing trivial damage or saving your ass? Yea, the dps can always deal more damage, the healers can always have higher healing output, we can always gear to take less damage, but 95% of that is just bolstering our peen.


This argument largely alleviates my concern now let me propose looking at this issue from another perspective.

Tank damage reduction is done through 2 means:
1) Passive mitigation to bring down damage taken across all times; this being done through passive talents and gearing for armor and avoidance.
2) Active mitigation to combat certain damage bursts; this being done through the use of cooldowns and trinkets and has been well covered by you and many other contributors.

It should also be said that those in favor of using HS as an active cool down might want to be careful not to come across as someone who undervalues passive mitigation. The old HS was certainly the passive kind but the 4.2 HS with its 1/3 up time seems to be somewhere in between.

- On one hand HS is on a cooldown but doesn't really reduce the (usually unblockable) damage bursts themselves, rather complements the other cooldowns; if one adheres to this philosophy he should time his HS's with the use of other cooldowns, while inserting additional HS's into time windows larger than 30 seconds.
- On the other hand HS can achieve pretty good time coverage and provide a substantial passive damage reduction when used on CD; if one decides this is his approach he would still ask himself every time he uses HS if he should wait a few seconds to time it better with another event.

The end result between these two approaches may be very similar anyway, but we should probably achieve some form of general consensus and make our recommendation in the OP. As mentioned the current incarnation of HS is very similar to the old Shield Block. I've personally never played a warrior in raid so perhaps someone familiar with the protwar community can shed some light on this topic.

#31 saboya

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 11:41 AM

Using it on CD will probably be the way to go on most fights, but on fights that spawn adds periodically, it will probably shine there if used correctly. There's no magic formula for it, you just have to adapt it to encounters.

But, even tough it's probably not something we will be worrying about now, keep in mind that HS will not scale well with gear, since we'll be eventually dropping Mastery in favor of "real avoidance" once we cap CTC, which will diminish the value of HS.

#32 Theck

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 11:43 AM

Holy Shield isn't the direct analogue of Shield Block though, Divine Protection is our version of Shield Block/Barkskin. Holy Shield is our version of Critical Block. In 4.1, a Warrior would block 30% most of the time and 60% on occasion, but the average was generally around 40%-45% blocked. A paladin, on the other hand, would block 40% consistently with Holy Shield up.

In 4.2, the comparison is more direct. Both tanks block 30% most of the time, but while warriors can crit block for 60%, paladins can use Holy Shield to block for 50%. The difference is that crit block is an random mechanic that may or may not be there when you need it, whereas Holy Shield is an on-demand increase in survivability. That makes crit block very suitable for reducing overall damage taken (arguably not very meaningful in the first place), but not very reliable for survivability. Our version is probably more powerful as a result, because we don't have to rely on luck.

#33 iNs1d3tRiP

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 02:11 PM

It should also be said that those in favor of using HS as an active cool down might want to be careful not to come across as someone who undervalues passive mitigation.

...

On one hand HS is on a cooldown but doesn't really reduce the (usually unblockable) damage bursts themselves,

...

The end result between these two approaches may be very similar anyway, but we should probably achieve some form of general consensus and make our recommendation in the OP.


I completely understand your concern, regarding undervaluing passive mitigatin, and believe me it made me wince at first when I saw this version of the new HS. However, I think you really have to ask yourself a question. Is the average auto attack going to cause too much damage, at least in respect to other classes? I don't think this gives warriors an advantage over us regarding damage, as they don't usually have a guaranteed block chance (yet) if they don't have shield block/some sort of a proc active. That 30% damage reduction is guaranteed for us, at least as of yet. As for druids and DKs, I know how they work in general but only have a surface understanding of their mechanics, since I have not played them, but it doesn't seem to me that their absorb shields will be way ahead of mitigation, especially the druid variety since it is based on the RNG of crit. Even if we never use the active HS, I don't think it would ruin us in respect to other tanking classes.

Now that is an extreme conclusion and I'm not saying to not use HS. I just think that 30% guaranteed physical damage reduction from auto attack is still great. If we need 10% more passive damage reduction on a fight it is probably because there is an issue other than tanking. With that said, if there IS an issue (especially when learning an encounter), then they usually occur spontaneously and sporadically over the course of the fight. If the heals have to spend a little extra time healing dps the new HS suddenly becomes much more valuable than the old HS. If the heals have to move or are incapacity, then again the new HS is more valuable.

I'm not trying to say there aren't any drawbacks to the New HS, but rather, I think the short cooldown makes it MORE meaningful to press rather than less because it can be an ability that you go to when there are little problems and save the actual damage reduction cooldowns for burst. As it stands right now, you have to use DP/AD/GoAK any time there is a problem or burst (which may be enough already), but now we can pretty much always use HS for the "little stuff" (or a little extra damage reduction during burst to guard from auto attacks) and still have our more major cooldowns ready. We often think that the only time a tank dies is during burst damage, but that isn't *entirely* true. I think we can also add that a great deal of tank deaths have been caused by too much damage on the whole raid. Often times, the healers will pick the tank over the dps, but then dps becomes slower and as the fight progresses, then the tank becomes more and more likely to die. The job of a tank is to keep the dps alive, and if the healers have to choose the tank over the dps in a certain situation, then the tank is essentially failing in that job.

Now at this point, the old HS may be better in some circumstances, in other circumstances the new HS. Perhaps in some circumstances the 10% extra block amount never causes healers to choose, in other circumstances the tank can activate HS to give 20% block amount allowing the healers to focus on raid healing. The only difference is that the power is more in the hands of the player, and honestly, I think that is what the problem is with the new HS. I like the mechanics of the new HS, but I honestly think that the key bindings are becoming a little too overbearing. (that may be because I already have stoneform and mirror of broken images macro key bound as well, not all paladins actually have those)

I guess this is just a long way of saying that we really can't say which is better until we actually see which version will save us more times (which is basically unfalsifiable anyways). In regarding to coming to a consensus of how exactly to use HS in the op, I think we do have a consensus, though not specifically for HS. I think it says something about you only get as much mileage out of CDs as you use them and they are best saved for periods of heavy burst or raid damage, but if you aren't going to use the CDs in that way it is best to macro them into your rotation. Maybe you want it to be a little more explicit regarding HS?

#34 gannon145

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 03:28 PM

Ok just wanted to run this by you guys to make sure my math is correct.

4.1 Gear stats converted to CTC coverage. I took agility out since it no longer affects dodge.

Mastery 0.01254
Parry 0.00565
Dodge 0.00565
Strength 0.00141

But this is what i was using to rate gear (not taking stamina in to account). With the increase in Str conversion to parry from 25% to 27% what does the Str number change to?

With the following:

Parry * 0.00565 = CTC
Str * .25 = Parry

You can get to:

Str * .25 * .00565 = CTC
Str * .00141 = CTC

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So in 4.2:

Parry * .00565 = CTC
Str * .27 = Parry

Str * .27 * .00565 = CTC
Str * .00153 = CTC

So 0.00153 is the new Str conversion to CTC.

Look right?

#35 Fierss

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 03:54 PM

But, even tough it's probably not something we will be worrying about now, keep in mind that HS will not scale well with gear, since we'll be eventually dropping Mastery in favor of "real avoidance" once we cap CTC, which will diminish the value of HS.

Dodge and Parry devalue pretty much everything. An attack that does 0 damage can't be further mitigated. This is not specific to holy shield.

#36 saboya

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 05:08 PM

Dodge and Parry devalue pretty much everything. An attack that does 0 damage can't be further mitigated. This is not specific to holy shield.

Yes, but HS is the only ability that is restricted to damage that can be fully mitigated by Dodge/Parry. All of our other cooldowns cover all types of damage.

#37 zgollum

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 10:31 PM

It was only today when I had to actually think about my threat priorities on Shannox, I still consider openers to be my weakest skill.
I've seen Theck's simulations and currently I'm using this as my opener (of course only when encounter allows):
1) Start 5 sec attack countdown
2) plea + Inq
3) use str pot and cast exorcism
4) AS + CS
This seems to be the best option for me but I wonder what is the most popular sequence to pull with?

#38 Consort

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 09:08 AM

Can I ask how you guys are keeping track of your CTC? I'm not quite capped yet, but a few Firelands upgrades will do it, and it seems like it's going to be kind of a horrible pain to try to sort my reforges and evaluate new pieces of gear when I'm just relying on eyeballing it, often without full raid buffs. A spreadsheet seems like the obvious answer but I can't find one that's up to date with the changes to Agi and Str conversions (and I'm pretty much too useless to make those changes myself). Does such a thing exist?

#39 Stip

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 11:38 AM

Glyph of Seal of truth seens to be a great choice... assuming you'll use seal of truth. Since seal of insight gives better survivability, it'll suit you better as a tank and give your healers way less headache. So, this glyph might be swapped with something else imo.

#40 Theck

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 01:24 PM

A spreadsheet seems like the obvious answer but I can't find one that's up to date with the changes to Agi and Str conversions (and I'm pretty much too useless to make those changes myself). Does such a thing exist?


In-game, you can use a nifty addon called Visual Combat Table, which will give you details about your combat table coverage. One drawback is that I think it defaults to the level of the last target you moused over, so it'll generally give you info on an 85 unless you go over to the target dummies. You'd also need someone to buff you with Horn of Winter / Battle Shout for the STR bonus if you want to simulate a raid environment.

Online, askmrrobot will calculate those things for you, and can suggest reforging/regemming strategies to work around block cap. To see your total combat table coverage, you just need to click on the "Show Stats" button (minor gripe, they call it "Total avoidance," but it's pretty obvious that they mean CTC).




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