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[Prot] 4.2 in flames


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#41 bellio

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Posted 01 July 2011 - 04:33 PM

Got several upgrades from our firelands clear on monday. My only question is, are they even upgrades? I lose a significant amount of mastery for more dodge (a significant amount to be fair) and hit which I reforged. At what point does the loss of mastery become acceptable? (under block cap that is)

#42 drumboy35

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Posted 02 July 2011 - 01:20 AM

Why do we want parry + 155 = dodge?
If the DR are now the same don't we want them to be equal?
Should the dodge be slightly higher because it has some secondary benefit?

#43 malthrin

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Posted 02 July 2011 - 01:22 AM

Edited the text to clarify: if you have parry + 155 = dodge while buffed with only Kings, then you'll have equal parry and dodge in a raid, assuming Mastery food.
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#44 drumboy35

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Posted 02 July 2011 - 01:54 AM

I guess that is due to raid buffs like the one that increases str/agi?
Also, why does having Kings on matter? I thought it only affected base stats and not ratings.

#45 malthrin

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Posted 02 July 2011 - 01:23 PM

I guess that is due to raid buffs like the one that increases str/agi?

Correct.

Also, why does having Kings on matter? I thought it only affected base stats and not ratings.

Kings adds strength, which gives Parry rating. Since Kings is the only buff that doesn't give a fixed amount of stats, it complicates the calculation of how much Parry you'll gain from raid buffs. The easiest way around that is to pre-buff Kings on yourself while you're looking at your Parry and Dodge.
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#46 drumboy35

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Posted 02 July 2011 - 04:37 PM

Thanks for the help!

#47 Jonuts

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Posted 03 July 2011 - 01:40 PM

I'll agree with billmao on this subject. As a survivability cooldown, holy shield leaves much to be desired for most situations. The auto-attack being nearly the only thing that gets mitigated, it's fairly useless for mitigating any sort of burst. Best I can come up with is to macro it to all your CD's if you want "Targeted" and "intelligent" use, along with hotkeying it so you can pop it manually. For those who debate the worth of sitting on it outside of other CD's, people such as me, it might be worthwhile to just macro it to CS. You can always go back to targetted use if you run into situations that are extremely melee heavy. Tanking adds, mini-enrages, something that just plain hits hard and fast temporarily for whatever reason that may or may not be an enrage. You get the idea.

For those pushing normal mode content, such as me, pug tank extraordinaire, this is most certainly a CD of dubious value. I'll reserve judgement for it on heroic content until we have people talking about it from experience, but I'll expect that it becomes somewhat more valuable. Lets be honest, if you hate yourself enough to do heroic bosses, you're gonna need all the help you can get.

#48 Dekkar

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Posted 04 July 2011 - 09:48 PM

The auto-attack being nearly the only thing that gets mitigated, it's fairly useless for mitigating any sort of burst. Best I can come up with is to macro it to all your CD's if you want "Targeted" and "intelligent" use, along with hotkeying it so you can pop it manually. For those who debate the worth of sitting on it outside of other CD's, people such as me, it might be worthwhile to just macro it to CS. You can always go back to targetted use if you run into situations that are extremely melee heavy. Tanking adds, mini-enrages, something that just plain hits hard and fast temporarily for whatever reason that may or may not be an enrage. You get the idea.


There are two things I would like to address here. The first is your assertion that Holy Shield is useless for mitigating any sort of burst. My claim is that's not so, as you can use Holy Shield to reduce incoming autoattack damage after a big raid AoE to give healers more time to react to raid burst. Some tank heals may be diverted to the raid during this time, especially in 10-man.

Second, macroing Holy Shield to any frequently used ability may result in a waste of the cooldown. For example, any time the boss is casting something at you or the raid (examples: H Maloriak's black breath attack, Atramedes' breath or air phase, etc). There are quite a few bosses out there who don't autoattack 100% of the time. Also, on tank swap fights, you wouldn't want it to be wasted by macroing it to an offensive ability, resulting in using it while you're not taking melee damage from the boss.

#49 Guest_aearion_*

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Posted 05 July 2011 - 06:16 AM

just reviewing the new 4.2 tank relic (both normal and heroic) and it seems both overall have less CTC. The 359 relic gives 2.61% CTC, the 372 1.37% CTC and the 391 1.665% CTC. The heroic relic is an increase 56 stam as well as AP gain from the strength, however i'm wondering whether it's worth even swapping the old relic out until you are past block cap and want to start swapping mastery for avoidance stats.

#50 Jonuts

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Posted 05 July 2011 - 03:52 PM

For example, any time the boss is casting something at you or the raid (examples: H Maloriak's black breath attack, Atramedes' breath or air phase, etc). There are quite a few bosses out there who don't autoattack 100% of the time.


Alright, never did H Maloriak, so I've no clue what his breath is. But you don't pop CD's on Atra's breath or air phase. That has to be one of the dumbest things I've heard. You manually AVOID getting hit. Complete waste of a CD, and if you pop a CD anyways, you're just gonna die. I've never seen a fight where as a tank, I need to pop a CD and am not taking melee damage anyways, excepting a few fights that are pure casting. Hydros is the only thing that really comes to mind. One of the twin emperors as well, but that guy was supposed to be tanked by warlocks anyways.

You seem to be completely ignoring the golden rule: Mechanics are important. Macroing to your CD's is just a quick and dirty suggestion for those who wish to use it during heavy burst to mitigate the auto-attacks. If you aren't taking melee hits anyways in the fight, it's a pretty moot point. I'll admit that I haven't done hardcore heroic progression, but I've yet to be in a situation, excepting P2 Nef, where I would have to pop a CD and aren't taking a melee hit anyways. And you know whats funny about P2 Nef? HS will be back up by the time I need, if we even bothered to try pushing Crackles. In the end, mechanics trump any general strategy. Getting the best possible use out of holy shield would truly require it's own thread, detailing how to specifically use it in each encounter. Macro it to CD's is merely a fair compromise that see's it used at the times many feel it's most important to use. Even better, it's only 1 button press, instead of 2.

As far as macroing to CS or something else used often, that's a choice for someone who probably won't use it much anyways, so any time lost because you're not taking auto-attacks is meaningless. 80% effective CD usage is better than no CD usage. Arguing that losing some of it's uptime to times you're not getting hit is pretty silly, because anyone taking this option won't use it "properly" anyways, and this is merely a much better alternative than forgetting it exists. Also, for tanks gearing up in 5 mans, it's probably a very superior option to macro it to Hammer of the Righteous. Any situation that using an AoE attack is preferred is *LIKELY* a situation where getting more HS uptime is a good thing. At that stage, it's generally far more important to learn to use your "real" CD's.

#51 saboya

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Posted 05 July 2011 - 05:26 PM

You're talking about not maximizing the use of cooldowns in a theorycrafting topic. Dekkar merely pointed out the obvious: If you don't use HS wisely, often it will be wasted during some non-damaging / magic damage / casting ability.

#52 Theck

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Posted 05 July 2011 - 09:47 PM

You can also come up with a number of examples in normal-mode Firelands where mechanics punish such usage (or conversely, reward careful usage).

Shannox: Riplimb spends a chunk of time trapped or running away, more useful to use it at high stacks right before the javelin is thrown.

Beth'tilac: As the downstairs tank, your only danger period is when a drone eats a couple spiderlings or you have two drones up. Save it for either of those cases.

Ryolith: Add tanking happens in spurts, could potentially waste it if it got used while none were up and you were attacking a leg. This encounter is simple enough for tanks that it hardly matters, though.

Alysrazor: Tantrums hurt a lot. Saving Holy Shield for them makes a noticeable difference in your survivability.

Baleroc: Possible tank swap every 30s, and Inferno/Devastation Blade cannot be blocked AFAIK. A bit of an odd situation, as HS is completely useless during the "danger period" of either Blade attack. I tend to use it about 10s before a devastation to make it easier for healers to top me off.

Majordomo: Far better to make sure it's up near the end of any phase, when the danger level is highest (boss + cat adds especially)

Ragnaros: tank swaps every 20-30s, lots of 3-5 second casts on timers. You can take a lot of stress off of your healers by using it intelligently here (while a healer is dead/moving from Smash/running away from an orb/snaring or stunning a Son/etc.).

#53 saboya

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Posted 06 July 2011 - 04:28 AM

Baleroc: Possible tank swap every 30s, and Inferno/Devastation Blade cannot be blocked AFAIK.

Decimating Strike (Decimation Blade) CANNOT be blocked. It can be dodged or parried.
Inferno Strike (Inferno Blade) CAN be blocked, dodged or parried.

#54 nex667

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Posted 06 July 2011 - 03:44 PM

just reviewing the new 4.2 tank relic (both normal and heroic) and it seems both overall have less CTC. The 359 relic gives 2.61% CTC, the 372 1.37% CTC and the 391 1.665% CTC. The heroic relic is an increase 56 stam as well as AP gain from the strength, however i'm wondering whether it's worth even swapping the old relic out until you are past block cap and want to start swapping mastery for avoidance stats.


How is your maths that gives the 359 relic 2,61% CTC and the 391 1,665% CTC? I bought the 372 relic with my prot today, reforged dodge to mastery and the difference was about 0,15% CTC (ignoring the gem in my 359 relic but the as both relics have a slot this should be legit)

#55 Guest_aearion_*

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Posted 06 July 2011 - 06:27 PM

Here is the math I did, turns out i added it up wrong at the end and a quick correction showed the right values

Spoiler


I didn't use exact figures and generally rounded to 2 decimals, so it will all be slightly out, but I think it's pretty close to accurate.

#56 Naturalisim

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Posted 07 July 2011 - 09:10 PM

What you write about how to balance dodge vs parry. Have you then taken into consideration on how much you weight Windwalker proc? Since if parry and dodge are dead equal by default, then the windwalker proc will be a little weak, while if dodge is somewhat lower than parry then it will be more powerfull. What thoughts have you made about this?

#57 malthrin

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Posted 07 July 2011 - 11:45 PM

I didn't bother to consider Windwalk or any other procs. Honestly, by the time you get to balancing out avoidance stats for DR purposes, you're pretty much done with min-maxing your gear. If you take it farther than that, you're talking about gains on the order of hundredths of a percent of avoidance - that's too minute to be worth anyone's time thinking about.
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#58 saboya

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Posted 09 July 2011 - 04:30 AM

Besides, you don't even need to care about leaving dodge lower than parry, it happens naturally since you have so much Str. At least my dodge is always trying to catch up.

#59 Talden

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Posted 09 July 2011 - 07:43 PM

First time really posting on here but here i go...

You said that the with the +81 stamina and 1% block chance was the best meta to go for but it appears that the which gives +54 mastery and minor running speed gives you more block overrall...

The reason for this is becuase the Eternal one requires 3 blue gems which means the most mastery you can get is +60 mastery and +60 stamina but for the Fleet meta it only requires 2 yellow gems which means you can gem +40 mastery x3 so its +120 mastery so in total the Fleet meta gives +174 mastery where as the Eternal only gives 60+1% block which seems to be lower than 174 mastery ( If the numbers i found for block % was right Fleet gives 2.19% and Eternal gives 1.76%). You do get an extra 141 stamina but stamina doesn't appear to be of any use until the cap is reached.

I regemmed my toon to test this out and it came out about 2% less block with the 1% block meta... What do you guys say about this due to i may have missed an obvious thing or its just the itemisation on my gear.

( im on about 66% mastery atm but it shouldn't matter due to mastery not being affected by DR)

#60 talchas

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Posted 09 July 2011 - 07:53 PM

First off, the eternal meta is block value, not block chance. Secondly, I don't think most people would agree that stamina is worthless until you are block capped.




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