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[Prot] 4.2 in flames


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#141 Theck

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 07:46 PM

IIRC, Righteous Fury won't show up in the log if he had it active before logging started and never recast it.

Choosing a random 7+ minute attempt and zooming in on phase one, since it's a good Patchwerk simulation:
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

You're doing around 10.3k DPS, which should be a little over 50k TPS with the new threat modifier (5x). It would be around 30k TPS with the old threat modifier (3x). There's no way you could be generating only 15k steady-state TPS with 10k DPS.

Your DK friend is putting out about 3.5k DPS more than you (13.7k total DPS), which should be 68.5k TPS (5x).

So you shouldn't be very far behind him. Your lower DPS can probably be attributed to ability usage. In that 134-second section, you should have been able to cast as many as ~44 Crusader Strikes, but you only cast 30. That's an average of around 4.5 seconds between Crusader Strikes, which is pretty long even assuming pushback from some SotR misses. You may want to try tightening up your rotation, that should help push you down closer to 3 seconds + double latency between CS's.

Some other errors show up when you scrutinize a filtered version of the combat log:

-You seemed to be a little unreliable with fillers. Your first Judgement was at 8:11, the next one isn't until 8:39, almost 30 seconds later. There were quite a few empty GCDs in there that could have fit a Judgement (or Consecration or Holy Wrath). In that period, you should have been able to get off another 2 Judgements.

-Your holy power usage is a little inefficient (slightly more clearly filtered log). You generated 4 Holy Power before the first SotR, but you cast an additional 3 Crusader Strikes before using SotR:

[21:08:09.552] Risspal casts Crusader Strike on Ragnaros
[21:08:09.671] Risspal gains 1 holy power from Risspal's Crusader Strike
[21:08:13.209] Risspal casts Crusader Strike on Ragnaros
[21:08:13.332] Risspal gains 1 holy power from Risspal's Crusader Strike
[21:08:16.527] Risspal casts Crusader Strike on Ragnaros
[21:08:16.596] Risspal gains 1 holy power from Risspal's Crusader Strike
[21:08:18.693] Risspal casts Grand Crusader
[21:08:18.748] Risspal gains 1 holy power from Risspal's Grand Crusader
[21:08:20.201] Risspal casts Crusader Strike on Ragnaros
[21:08:23.597] Risspal casts Crusader Strike on Ragnaros
[21:08:27.140] Risspal casts Crusader Strike on Ragnaros
[21:08:33.015] Risspal casts Shield of the Righteous on Ragnaros

You do this a couple times in the log, where you cast an extra CS when you already have 3 Holy Power before using them in a SotR. In addition, you cast SotR once with 2 Holy Power. Improving your Holy Power efficiency would help considerably.

Cleaning up those two problems and tightening your rotation should help catch you up to your co-tank. Consider that if you were able to shave that CS interval from 4.5s. to 3.5s, that would be a ~28% increase in ability usage, which would be a pretty significant chunk of DPS.

#142 risser

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 12:22 AM

Thanks for your insights Theck,

Your DK friend is putting out about 3.5k DPS more than you (13.7k total DPS), which should be 68.5k TPS (5x).


I run a threat meter and what you say would confirm the meters results; however the logs is where I got the TPS info from. That little extra threat he's producing makes it hard when I'm tanking and having to work very hard to stay ahead of his threat gains.

You seemed to be a little unreliable with fillers. Your first Judgement was at 8:11, the next one isn't until 8:39, almost 30 seconds later. There were quite a few empty GCDs in there that could have fit a Judgement (or Consecration or Holy Wrath). In that period, you should have been able to get off another 2 Judgements.


For the pull I'm the OT so in order to NOT make the fight a threat race at the start (seems like what he does to me), when it comes time to taunt after say 3 debuffs I normally have my 3 holy power and if needed I'll just CS without using my holy power up so when I taunt I have a my SotR ready to push my threat lead.

In saying that if you zoomed in on a section when I'm tanking you should see my rotation being quite tidy. When my friend is tanking I work my rotation far more loosely eg, 1st holy power combo normally is a WoG type thing to avoid any issues with me pulling threat back. I even on one occasion ran out of range since there seemed to be a major issue with him gaining threat - hardware fault he said haha.

Finally, I see my roll especially on progression fights to do all in my power to make the fight as easy as possible for healers and dps; however, having a 2nd tank makes this so much harder as the threat lead is so minimal and I can't seem to play that style. This is probably my biggest complaint, and maybe other tanks think differently, and maybe I'm the minority that thinks this way. We've had a Warrior sub in a few times to tank and he's similar in mindset drinking dps pots even.. it just seems dps is in the blood of these guys and actually taking on the roll of tanking is far more then dpsing and pushing CD's when needed IMHO.

EDIT* I had a look at the logs on Beth, and in most part it was fine bar 1 major instance of 6x CS's before use, most are fine, but I do see room for improvement. Also I WoG'd 8 times, and SotR 20, vs rag 6x WoG's and 29xSotR.

#143 burghy

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 10:04 AM

It's his responsibility to control threat at swaps especially first one when you have 0 vengeance and he is maxed plus a bunch of fire stacks. Not chill a couple of gds right after taunt and then go full out on RS, HS and DS.

#144 ra3l

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 12:36 PM

This is what you should always do when taunting:

1. Build up 3 HP
2. AW
3. Taunt and HoSalv on your tankbuddy
4. SotR
5. DP
6. SotR
7. Normal rotation

AW and HoSalv only if available, of course.

What burghy said is also very true.

#145 Brokenone

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 01:47 PM

I'm looking for a way to determine what my max DPS as a Tank should be in a certain gear level. I remember when we were starting Baleroc Heroic (10 man), and our raid leader said we would need the tank to do 15k DPS. Tuesday night I did 18.6k. I wasn't wearing anything crazy, just my standard tank gear. The only thing different from what I'm currently wearing is that Domo finally dropped shoulders last night. E: I forgot, I also hit exalted when Baleroc died so I upgraded a ring as well.

Gear: Brokenone @ Aegwynn - Game - World of Warcraft
Log: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

I just want to know what my theoretical max is so I have something to work towards.

#146 Darkorinth

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 09:36 PM

I had a question about Rawr. When it calculates the Avoidance + Block do I want 102.4 or 100 for full CTC. I'm not sure if it takes the difference for highter level bosses into account. I did notice that it calcualtes miss as 4.4% rather than 5% which is where I ended up confused as to what precisely it calculates.

#147 Charybdis

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Posted 09 September 2011 - 06:15 PM

I had a question about Rawr. When it calculates the Avoidance + Block do I want 102.4 or 100 for full CTC. I'm not sure if it takes the difference for highter level bosses into account. I did notice that it calcualtes miss as 4.4% rather than 5% which is where I ended up confused as to what precisely it calculates.


If it's doing a 4.4% miss rate, it's almost certainly calculating your stats against a boss mob. If you really want to verify, plug in a naked, talentless character and see what the base block, dodge, and parry percents are. If they're all about 4.4% then it's most definitely calculating the combat table properly.

Brokenone, SimulationCraft can model Protection, but it's not fully developed since most tanks aren't worried about their DPS really. If you happen to use it and notice some problems, feel free to report them at Issues - simulationcraft - World of Warcraft DPS Simulator - Google Project Hosting.

#148 Dracir

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Posted 12 September 2011 - 06:04 AM

Figured out the issue.

#149 Zeikan

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Posted 12 September 2011 - 07:01 PM

Hey guys i have been having trubble with the [Vengeance] that the buff wount get up. meaning that insted off getting 15k Vengeance it stops on 9k and just wount get up even on hc bosses. any go some sugetions on what it could be ?

#150 Charybdis

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Posted 12 September 2011 - 09:52 PM

The exact way Vengeance applies hasn't been noted in this thread yet, so here it is:

Hey all, I'm hopping in to see if this will help you all a bit in understanding how this is meant to work. Hopefully it will clear up a little confusion.

The Vengeance calculation is working correctly as far as we can ascertain. Vengeance caps at a number equal to Stamina plus 10% of base health, which is lower than 10% of health. When we buffed Stamina late in Cataclysm development, we specifically did not buff Vengeance because we didn’t think tanks needed 40% additional attack power in order to maintain threat or contribute to damage done by the group. The Vengeance tooltip is a little misleading, but in this case we think that’s fine because a more technically accurate tooltip would be quite long. Astute theorycrafters will understand the difference, while most tanks won’t actually be affected by the delta.


Source

Basically, it's 10% of base health + 100% Stamina. This is about 40% lower than just having it be 10% of total health.

#151 Valkon

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Posted 15 September 2011 - 06:34 AM

Hey guys, I have a question about my current gear setup. For a while, I've been waiting for enough CTC to be at the 102.4% benchmark without elixirs or mastery food, and with a stam trinket instead. Today I made two gear swaps after I got my T12 shoulders for 4-piece and was finally able to get to this point (except I still have to eat mastery food and had to change one 20par/30stm gem to a 20mas/20par gem, neither of which is a big deal).

However, the problem I have now is that my parry is ridiculously higher than my dodge. Here is a link to my character profile: Valkon @ Archimonde - Game - World of Warcraft

Before this I was wearing Stay of Execution so my dodge and parry were about equal, but I've really been wanting to get my stamina up so that I'm higher than 196k with full raid buffs. Any suggestions?

-Thanks in advance

#152 Estragenlol

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Posted 15 September 2011 - 09:50 AM

If you are aiming to be at 102.4% CTC and have your Dodge/Parry ratio be as equal as possible, then your best bet would be to drop 4 piece and use just 2 piece. Getting Rag shoulders and Beth'tilac chest will allow you to get closer to an equal Dodge to Parry ratio while maintaining your CTC.

#153 Valkon

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Posted 15 September 2011 - 05:04 PM

Hmm, well here's another question then: How good is the 4-piece? Is the extra 12% parry every ~1 min not worth dodge and parry being so far apart (I know that because of DR, there's some loss there but not sure how much)?

#154 CodeNameSly

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Posted 15 September 2011 - 09:41 PM

Hmm, well here's another question then: How good is the 4-piece? Is the extra 12% parry every ~1 min not worth dodge and parry being so far apart (I know that because of DR, there's some loss there but not sure how much)?


DR applies to ratings only. Items that give a % boost to parry will not suffer from DR.

#155 Valkon

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Posted 15 September 2011 - 10:21 PM

Yes, I know that. Looking back at my response, I was obviously not clear enough. I was asking whether it's better to have the T12 4-piece bonus and have my parry rating be that much higher than my dodge rating, or whether it's better to drop the bonus and get the ratings closer to one another.

#156 matthewseidl

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Posted 15 September 2011 - 10:28 PM

Yes, I know that. Looking back at my response, I was obvious not clear enough. I was asking whether it's better to have the T12 4-piece bonus and have my parry rating be that much higher than my dodge rating, or whether it's better to drop the bonus and get the ratings closer.


The 12% parry works out to a 20% damage reduction for me in my gear on parry-able damage. With a 16% uptime, that works out to 2% parry on average. No way the delta in DR abilities is that much. I'd keep 4p.

#157 Valkon

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Posted 16 September 2011 - 12:27 AM

The 12% parry works out to a 20% damage reduction for me in my gear on parry-able damage. With a 16% uptime, that works out to 2% parry on average. No way the delta in DR abilities is that much. I'd keep 4p.


Ok, thanks. Then the other question comes in: Is it then more worthwhile to stick with Stay of Execution and the... I think 383 dodge rating it gives, or to put on a stam trinket instead? I know that stamina is kind of hard to plug into a "survivability calculation," but I just keep feeling like 196k for me with full raid buffs is a little low in T12 Heroics when my DK tank partner has 235k (yes, I know DK's should have more health, but *that* much more?)

#158 saboya

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Posted 16 September 2011 - 03:25 AM

Ask your healers if they need more room. I run witha bit less than you and my healers think I'm fine to heal.

#159 Charybdis

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Posted 25 September 2011 - 11:41 AM

Protection, 2P -- Your Judgement ability now also grants a physical absorb shield equal to 30% of the damage it dealt.
Protection, 4P -- Reduces the cooldown of Divine Guardian by 60 sec and increases the radius of its effect by 70 yards.

The 2pc seems underwhelming, but might show promise even though it's limited to physical absorption only. A quick look at some Prot paladins on WOL shows regular Judgement hits doing up to 16k, and crits doing up to 32k. 30% of those is 4800 and 9600 respectively. In T13 gear I'd guess Judgement could get 20k normal hits and 40k crits, meaning 6k and 12k absorbs respectively. A 6k absorb every 8-9 seconds is better than practically any trinket so far. I would be very interested to see how this goes during any fight mechanics that boost tank damage, such as Alysrazor.

The 4pc is quite powerful, as are all the tanking 4pc bonuses. In our case, it makes the Divine guardian talent a guaranteed raidwide 20% damage damage reduction for 6 seconds every 2 minutes. The 30 yard range wasn't bad before, but it did lessen the talent's value significantly on large fights. I don't think any Cataclysm fights have had folks spread out more than 200 or even 100 yards in the same room, but I'm not absolutely sure on that.

#160 Saathe

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Posted 25 September 2011 - 06:23 PM

So the 4p T13 bonus is bringing us back in line with what the old DG used to be? 100yd range and the old CD.




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