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[Enhancement] 4.2 - Someone Spilled Spells all over this Axe


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#41 Rouncer

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 04:19 PM

Going to throw this out there even though it needs more testing to clearly define how it works. Also needs player testing to see if the behavior change applies there as well.

They did something with seasoned winds since the last time I tested the talent. When I tested it last it wasn't refreshing it's own timer. I noticed the issue during Nef attempts right after the patch and then tested it more thoroughly by dueling a friend.

From the combat log back when I noticed it not refreshing.
[22:25:19.397] Rouncer's Wind Shear interrupts Chromatic Prototype's Blast Nova
[22:25:19.939] Rouncer gains Seasoned Winds from Rouncer
[22:25:26.729] Rouncer casts Wind Shear on Chromatic Prototype
[22:25:26.759] Rouncer's Wind Shear interrupts Chromatic Prototype's Blast Nova
[22:25:29.942] Rouncer's Seasoned Winds fades from Rouncer

Last night I was playing around with the talent for Alysrazor and it seemed to be refreshing itself pretty consistently. There were a few times when I interrupted where it wouldn't but that could have been that the other melee on the target managed to beat me to the interrupt even though my mod said that I was the one who did the actual interrupting.

On our kill I managed to snake all the interrupts on my side, 27 interrupts, 27 applications of Seasoned Winds, 43% uptime.

[22:04:42.479] Rouncer gains Seasoned Winds from Rouncer
[22:04:49.321] Rouncer's Seasoned Winds is refreshed by Rouncer
[22:04:59.325] Rouncer's Seasoned Winds fades from Rouncer
[22:05:13.362] Rouncer gains Seasoned Winds from Rouncer
[22:05:21.543] Rouncer's Seasoned Winds is refreshed by Rouncer
[22:05:28.431] Rouncer's Seasoned Winds is refreshed by Rouncer
[22:05:35.773] Rouncer's Seasoned Winds is refreshed by Rouncer
[22:05:45.752] Rouncer's Seasoned Winds fades from Rouncer
[22:06:05.941] Rouncer gains Seasoned Winds from Rouncer
[22:06:15.936] Rouncer's Seasoned Winds fades from Rouncer
[22:06:20.570] Rouncer gains Seasoned Winds from Rouncer
[22:06:27.926] Rouncer's Seasoned Winds is refreshed by Rouncer
[22:06:37.926] Rouncer's Seasoned Winds fades from Rouncer
[22:06:46.253] Rouncer gains Seasoned Winds from Rouncer
[22:06:55.646] Rouncer's Seasoned Winds is refreshed by Rouncer
[22:07:03.338] Rouncer's Seasoned Winds is refreshed by Rouncer
[22:07:10.270] Rouncer's Seasoned Winds is refreshed by Rouncer
[22:07:20.259] Rouncer's Seasoned Winds fades from Rouncer
[22:09:05.553] Rouncer gains Seasoned Winds from Rouncer
[22:09:13.316] Rouncer's Seasoned Winds is refreshed by Rouncer
[22:09:23.302] Rouncer's Seasoned Winds fades from Rouncer
[22:09:37.792] Rouncer gains Seasoned Winds from Rouncer
[22:09:45.112] Rouncer's Seasoned Winds is refreshed by Rouncer
[22:09:52.003] Rouncer's Seasoned Winds is refreshed by Rouncer
[22:09:59.347] Rouncer's Seasoned Winds is refreshed by Rouncer
[22:10:09.324] Rouncer's Seasoned Winds fades from Rouncer
[22:10:36.466] Rouncer gains Seasoned Winds from Rouncer
[22:10:43.754] Rouncer's Seasoned Winds is refreshed by Rouncer
[22:10:51.102] Rouncer's Seasoned Winds is refreshed by Rouncer
[22:10:57.994] Rouncer's Seasoned Winds is refreshed by Rouncer
[22:11:07.997] Rouncer's Seasoned Winds fades from Rouncer
[22:11:11.035] Rouncer gains Seasoned Winds from Rouncer
[22:11:17.943] Rouncer's Seasoned Winds is refreshed by Rouncer
[22:11:25.284] Rouncer's Seasoned Winds is refreshed by Rouncer
[22:11:32.602] Rouncer's Seasoned Winds is refreshed by Rouncer
[22:11:42.600] Rouncer's Seasoned Winds fades from Rouncer

Whether that is enough to give the talent enough value to be worth a respec for certain encounters is still questionable but it is something to think about. From that same kill.

Examples of damage with and without the buff.
[22:10:09.324] Rouncer's Seasoned Winds fades from Rouncer
[22:10:09.628] Unknown Brushfire Daeluin 40121 (R: 10030)
[22:10:27.128] Unknown Brushfire Daeluin 41037 (R: 10259)
[22:10:34.531] Unknown Brushfire Rouncer 41904 (R: 10476)

[22:11:17.943] Rouncer's Seasoned Winds is refreshed by Rouncer
[22:11:23.728] Unknown Brushfire Daeluin 42383 (A: 2790, R: 5019)
[22:11:23.737] Unknown Brushfire Rouncer 35323 (R: 15139)

[22:05:21.543] Rouncer's Seasoned Winds is refreshed by Rouncer
[22:05:26.441] Unknown Brushfire Rouncer 24561 (R: 24562)
[22:05:26.441] Unknown Brushfire Daeluin 41188 (R: 10297)

I wish the talent was more like feint, that it was a fixed AE reduction following a wind shear. I really wish Blizzard would put things like this in their bug/hotfix list so they didn't have to be discovered by players through testing.

#42 Brazos

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Posted 05 August 2011 - 04:19 AM

Patch 4.2 Hotfixes - Aug 4

Unheeded Warning now grants 1926 attack power, instead of 680 weapon damage.


Assuming the 1/5 rule of maximum proc stat normalization, this means it would only have an equivalent AP of 385. So either this thing has more than a 20% uptime, or its been nerfed to oblivion for all classes.

Edit: Tried to do some testing with this trinket but it appears the change has not been implemented yet on my server. It is still proc'ing weapon damage as was seen by observing my character info window.

#43 IloveJB

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Posted 12 August 2011 - 10:15 PM

So I keep seeing people refer to LvB and even saw it it in someone's priority queue relatively high up. Does this mean it's a viable spell to use while I'm going at it on a boss. Or should I keep with the "Only use at ranged" method

#44 Joelshup

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Posted 13 August 2011 - 07:22 AM

My understanding is that you should only be using LvB in your rotation when you obtain an EoP, otherwise it would be considered a DPS loss. On that, I have my LvB as the last item in my priority.

#45 Callo

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Posted 14 August 2011 - 10:45 PM

I was wondering if anyone knew if wolves benefits from the dmg buff we get on heroic staghelm? If so is it safe to assume it would be optimal to hold off on popping wolves till we reach the full 100% dmg buff? Any answers or thoughts would be much appreciated.

#46 Rouncer

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 01:08 AM

Looking at the logs for ranked kills and the wolves do not appear to benefit in the slightest.

#47 Scraperbike

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 01:24 AM

They do indeed benefit from the buff. It was a hotfix a few weeks back.

Just for clarification here is the text from the hotfix:
"Player pets should now benefit from their master's Concentration.

Also if you look at the spirit wolves "buffs gained" you can see:
Legendary Concentration 3 68.7 11.4 % #
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

#48 Rouncer

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 02:01 AM

They do indeed benefit from the buff. It was a hotfix a few weeks back.

Just for clarification here is the text from the hotfix:
"Player pets should now benefit from their master's Concentration.

Also if you look at the spirit wolves "buffs gained" you can see:
Legendary Concentration 3 68.7 11.4 % #
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis



Doesn't matter in regards to his question since the buff is on the spirits and not transferred from the player to the spirits. Still question whether that buff is actually doing anything since that parse shows you jumping from 24.9k dps on Baelroc to 43.8k on Domo with the buff. Searing Totem went from 3.7k to 6.05k; while your spirits only went from 1.8k to 2.0k. 76% increase in your personal dps, 64% increase in ST damage yet less then a 10% increase in your wolves dps doesn't seem like that buff is working on them as intended.

#49 Scraperbike

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 03:22 AM

I still am finding it hard to believe the buff isn't working on them because I specifically remember seeing a difference in their damage between the 2 weeks of the hotfix. Could it be that procs and potions lining up with when I cast spirit wolves on Baleroc being better than on Domo which results in the damage difference? Acorn + Landslide x2 + potion could have a big effect on the spirit wolves damage. Though I can say on a compltely unrelated note Earth Elemental throwing the big 800 dps on Domo is definitely worth using in that fight and I am finding its worth dropping on almost all fights for free damage

Also looking at the average swings for the spirit wolves I do notice a difference.
Heroic Domo: 1422.5 average non crit hit, 2875 average crit hit
Heroic Rag: 1194.4 average non crit hit, 2387.0 average crit hit

The reason I chose to compare to Rag is because I know I was lining up spirit wolves with procs and potion (even getting double lust on wolves lol) considering all our attempts were 3 minutes I just was playing around perfecting my rotation.

I still can see your reasoning on why it might not be working on our wolves (which is lame considering it buffs Earth Ele but not our controllable pet?) I'm just hoping I had good rng on wolves on Baleroc and shitty rng on Domo and that is the reasoning for the slight damage difference.

#50 Kalince

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 04:09 AM

If you check out the log browser for 12375 - 12423 one wolf hits for half the other wolf. The buffs tab also is only showing one power gain of legendary concentration so it looks like only one wolf is benefiting.

[22:12:09.907] Spirit Wolf hits Majordomo Staghelm 1218
[22:12:09.907] Spirit Wolf crits Majordomo Staghelm *2660*
[22:12:11.451] Spirit Wolf hits Majordomo Staghelm 955
[22:12:11.451] Spirit Wolf hits Majordomo Staghelm 2506
[22:12:12.660] Spirit Wolf hits Majordomo Staghelm 2484
[22:12:12.660] Spirit Wolf hits Majordomo Staghelm 1231
[22:12:13.614] Spirit Wolf hits Majordomo Staghelm 2669
[22:12:13.614] Spirit Wolf hits Majordomo Staghelm 877
[22:12:14.707] Spirit Wolf hits Majordomo Staghelm 1223
[22:12:14.707] Spirit Wolf hits Majordomo Staghelm 2610
[22:12:15.687] Spirit Wolf hits Majordomo Staghelm 1088
[22:12:15.687] Spirit Wolf hits Majordomo Staghelm 1809
[22:12:16.741] Spirit Wolf hits Majordomo Staghelm 835
[22:12:16.741] Spirit Wolf hits Majordomo Staghelm 2430
[22:12:17.887] Spirit Wolf hits Majordomo Staghelm 2469
[22:12:17.887] Spirit Wolf hits Majordomo Staghelm 907
[22:12:18.854] Spirit Wolf hits Majordomo Staghelm 2408
[22:12:18.854] Spirit Wolf hits Majordomo Staghelm 1254
[22:12:19.946] Spirit Wolf hits Majordomo Staghelm 2591
[22:12:19.946] Spirit Wolf hits Majordomo Staghelm 1172
[22:12:20.975] Spirit Wolf hits Majordomo Staghelm 892
[22:12:20.975] Spirit Wolf hits Majordomo Staghelm 2630
[22:12:22.053] Spirit Wolf hits Majordomo Staghelm 2478
[22:12:22.053] Spirit Wolf hits Majordomo Staghelm 1102
[22:12:23.175] Spirit Wolf hits Majordomo Staghelm 1205
[22:12:23.175] Spirit Wolf hits Majordomo Staghelm 2602
[22:12:24.173] Spirit Wolf hits Majordomo Staghelm 2486
[22:12:24.173] Spirit Wolf hits Majordomo Staghelm 1095
[22:12:27.261] Spirit Wolf hits Majordomo Staghelm 2500
[22:12:27.262] Spirit Wolf hits Majordomo Staghelm 1032
[22:12:28.298] Spirit Wolf hits Majordomo Staghelm 1975
[22:12:28.332] Spirit Wolf hits Majordomo Staghelm 1189
[22:12:30.461] Spirit Wolf hits Majordomo Staghelm 1078
[22:12:30.461] Spirit Wolf hits Majordomo Staghelm 2432
[22:12:31.416] Spirit Wolf hits Majordomo Staghelm 994
[22:12:31.416] Spirit Wolf hits Majordomo Staghelm 2598


#51 Nightstarzz

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Posted 06 September 2011 - 03:50 PM

Hey, I'm posting this because I can't try it out myself, but I've noticed from various logs of enhance shamans that use EoP, that FT is doing more damage at the end of the fight than WF.

Wouldn't it be worth going double FT (with EoP as MH), so that you gain furthermore spell damage (also would allow you to skip WF glyph and get the 2% spell crit extra from the FT glyph). Thus, also buffing LS, LB, LvB, FS and ES damage.

What you're also looking at is a roughly double damage increase from UE (2 x flame, instead of 1xflame + 1xwind).

Has anyone actually tested this in Live and could provide me proper feedback?
(My guild refuses to give EoP to a non-healer/caster player, and we have had only 2 drops so far).

P.S. I can't run EnhSim, because I use Macintosh software.

#52 Rouncer

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Posted 06 September 2011 - 04:25 PM

Windfury isn't just about the direct damage. Each proc is 3 chances for MW stacks/Flurry/Landslide procs. UE_WF is also a lot of additional white damage. Then there is the ICD on Flametongue to take into account. It's only 0.15 seconds but it does mean you will only get 1 FT proc with each SS along with costing you additional procs whenever the swing timers coincide.

TLDR - WF/FT is more dps then FT/FT even with EoP, hard casting, and a glyph swap.

#53 Sixthy

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Posted 11 September 2011 - 12:29 AM

With H-EoP as our new BiS MH (with H gate off) I'm a little unclear on how our priorities change. I presume our LL is still king with SS on CD as well, but how exactly are we suppoesd to work in Lava burst now. And won't using that consume MW proc buildups that we would use for LBs (thereby getting fewer of those). Does anything really change from what we're used to?

I'll have to see it in practice a few times to understand it I'm sure as it hasn't dropped for me yet, but I guess this will make UE, LB, FS/ES, lightning shield shock, and searing totem/totem tick effect move up considerably in the damage breakdown.


Lava Burst fits in at the very end of your priority queue. I personally fit it in after MW2 - so if SS/LL/UE/Shock is all on CD, as long as I have around 2 seconds or longer left on the next ability coming off cooldown, I'll hard cast the Lava Burst and will typically be ready for the next ability without skipping a beat. I still prioritize MW2 over Lava Burst though, but often enough I can get off the lightning bolt + the lava burst before the next ability comes off CD. (Typically you'll feel the right time for the hard cast whenever UE was used, then your SS/LL gets used and the next ability in your priority is Earth Shock - after that Earth Shock you should notice a nice gap of about 4 to 5 seconds before your Stormstrike + LL is coming off cool down. This is the perfect time for the MW2 / Lava Burst.)

#54 ziff

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Posted 25 September 2011 - 01:23 AM

Looks like the T13 enhancement set bonuses are up

Enhancement, 2P -- While you have any stacks of Maelstrom Weapon, your Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, and healing spells deal 20% more healing or damage.
Enhancement, 4P -- Your Feral Spirits have a 45% chance to grant you a charge of Maelstrom Weapon each time they deal damage.


Not sure about this set of bonuses. This might make haste more interesting to us.

#55 Hothgor

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Posted 25 September 2011 - 04:20 AM

Looks like the T13 enhancement set bonuses are up



Not sure about this set of bonuses. This might make haste more interesting to us.


The 2pc bonus is essentially a ~2% damage increase. Based on the current sim, we proc MSW 45 times per minute, or 90 times every 2 minutes. The dogs currently have a base attack of 1.5 seconds and 1.36 seconds with the haste totem down (I'm going to exclude lust since it only affects 1 out of every 3 feral spirits 'normally'). Each wolf will attack 22 times per cast, or 44 times in total, meaning we will get an extra ~20 procs every 2 minutes, or 10 procs per minute. We currently cast LB on average 10 times a minute, and can reasonably expect to cast it another 2-3 times with the additional 10 MSW procs per minute. This works out to ~2.5% more damage overall.

2pc: 2% damage increase
4pc: 2.5% damage increase(3% with 2pc bonus)
Total set bonus: 5% damage increase.

This is fairly potent considering how our current 2 and 4pc bonus are worth roughly 1.3 and 1.9% respectively. Of course this is all napkin math, so ymmv.
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#56 Shambells

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Posted 25 September 2011 - 06:00 AM

The problem with the 4 piece bonus, in my opinion, is that, at least anecdotally, (and I know that's frowned upon here but I lack the wherewithal to come up with an analytic version) I'm getting to the point where I'm almost GCD capped, assuming no (or very very little) haste on my gear. Is this what you mean by "makes haste more attractive"? Because I do not think that I could fit 2 extra LB's into a cycle with LVB in it. I'm lucky if I don't waste a charge of maelstrom weapon before I can press the button. Although, I do find it interesting how they tie it into the cooldown that I only press because it's there, not because I get any kind of excitement out of how little damage they do... they seem to have done this to a lot of other not very interesting (read : not compelling gameplay) abilities.
Note : this is not simmed like it should be, but I'm assuming an average player's ability to click the button in time to avoid wasted MW charges. The sim may be able to use the charges in time, but I'm not entirely certain a player could.

#57 ziff

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Posted 25 September 2011 - 06:04 AM

I just updated EnhSim to see how good these bonuses are and here's what I have. This is just using the default config.txt file from 2.6.1 and just changing the bonus

[table="head"]Tier Bonus|DPS|Increase over base
Base w/ no bonus|31920.92|--
T12 2P|32383.54|1.45%
T12 4P|32980.90|3.32%
T13 2P|32726.00|2.52%
T13 4P|N/A|N/A


Heh, not bad for napkin math. I don't have the T13 4P bonus, since EnhSim never needed to model the feral spirits procing something. I'll fiddle around with it and see if I can get the T13 4p numbers soon.

#58 Hothgor

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Posted 25 September 2011 - 07:12 AM

The problem with the 4 piece bonus, in my opinion, is that, at least anecdotally, (and I know that's frowned upon here but I lack the wherewithal to come up with an analytic version) I'm getting to the point where I'm almost GCD capped, assuming no (or very very little) haste on my gear. Is this what you mean by "makes haste more attractive"? Because I do not think that I could fit 2 extra LB's into a cycle with LVB in it. I'm lucky if I don't waste a charge of maelstrom weapon before I can press the button. Although, I do find it interesting how they tie it into the cooldown that I only press because it's there, not because I get any kind of excitement out of how little damage they do... they seem to have done this to a lot of other not very interesting (read : not compelling gameplay) abilities.
Note : this is not simmed like it should be, but I'm assuming an average player's ability to click the button in time to avoid wasted MW charges. The sim may be able to use the charges in time, but I'm not entirely certain a player could.


I was under the impression that hard casting LvB was only viable under 2 circumstances: You are using a Spell Power Weapon and you have the 4pc bonus from t12. Without both conditions being met, you are better off not using LvB in your rotation. This should ensure you are not gcd capped when you are rocking with the 2 and 4pc t13 set bonuses.
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#59 ziff

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Posted 25 September 2011 - 08:35 AM

I was under the impression that hard casting LvB was only viable under 2 circumstances: You are using a Spell Power Weapon and you have the 4pc bonus from t12. Without both conditions being met, you are better off not using LvB in your rotation. This should ensure you are not gcd capped when you are rocking with the 2 and 4pc t13 set bonuses.


I think this is a legitimate concern with the 4P bonus. If you look at the numbers from EnhSim with the default config.txt file, we are getting around 46 PPM for Maelstrom Weapon, or 23 procs during 30 seconds. With that 4 piece bonus, we are going to have a huge spike in MW procs. Using your earlier estimates, we should be getting an extra 20 MW procs while our Feral Spirits are up. That's almost doubling the number of MW procs, from 23 to 43. According to the sim, we are already only about 87% efficient with MW. We are going to lose some of the effectiveness of the set bonus because we just won't be able to keep up.

EDIT: I just coded up the start of the T13 4P piece bonus and you can start to see this effect. Here's the breakdown on MW PPM(lost are MW procs when we are already at 5 stacks, eaten are MW procs that happen while we are casting with less than 5 stacks):

[table="head]|Procs(PPM)|Lost(PPM)|Eaten(PPM)
T12 4P|45.92|5.06|0.53
T13 4P|56.54|9.62|1.01
T13 4P BL|59.49|11.26|1.12

The bottom row is setting the always BloodLust when Feral Spirits are up option. You can really see the spike in the number of MW proc that are getting eaten when the feral spirits are always lusted. While the number of procs increase by almost 3, half of those procs are just getting lost since we are already at 5 stacks.

EDIT2: Ok, I finished coding up the T13 4P bonus and it's abit disappointing given the wasted MW procs from the bonus. This might be what Blizzard is going for since an overall DPS gain of 3.5% might be what their target is. I added in using both the T12 2P and the T13 2P since that might be the way to go with this preliminary bonus.


Tier Bonus|DPS|Increase over base
Base w/ no bonus|31920.92|--
T12 2P|32383.54|1.45%
T12 4P|32980.90|3.32%
T13 2P|32726.00|2.52%
T13 4P|33031.95|3.48%
T12 2P & T13 2P|33180.62|3.94%


Obviously, doing serious number crunching on a set bonus that hasn't even made it to the PTR isn't really useful, but this does give some idea on how they come out.

#60 Brazos

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Posted 25 September 2011 - 04:48 PM

I would expect the T13 bonuses to modify our action priority list and possibly glyph choices too. Feral Spirits will move higher up the list and its also quite possible the MWx_LB will move up as well. I am also wondering if it would be best to use feral spirits outside of lust to minimize wasted MW procs and ultimately achieve more LBs throughout a fight, assuming this offsets the damage loss of un-lusted wolves. I think that all of these optimizations should also be done for us to better quantify the total effect of the T13 set bonuses.




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