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Cataclysm 4.2.x Raid Mechanics


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#341 PikaPika1006

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Posted 17 October 2011 - 01:30 AM

I confirm this (done last week) and apparently also Shadowmeld works.


Shadowmeld is also hit and miss for dropping meteors on Rag. Probably not worth doing not only because it'll catch to you if it doesn't work, and reasons mentioned earlier in this thread about vanishing meteors being a bad idea in general.

#342 sp00n

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Posted 17 October 2011 - 08:56 AM

And also, you'd probably be better off to use Shadowmeld as an extra stun for the sons on Ragnaros.

Ok, it'd be ready in P4 then, but the constant damage you get there while kiting will render Shadowmeld completely useless anyway.

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#343 Exisled

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 03:22 PM

As assassination, on both Beth and Domo, it is possible to rupture the adds (Spinners/Cats) and gain a higher energy return when they die, allowing you to get another mutilate (and often rupture) up on another add/the boss. This can be chained for quite a few adds.

#344 Foxtail

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 08:15 PM

And also, you'd probably be better off to use Shadowmeld as an extra stun for the sons on Ragnaros.

Ok, it'd be ready in P4 then, but the constant damage you get there while kiting will render Shadowmeld completely useless anyway.



Indeed, an extra stun in the sons really help out a lot once in a while so you get all the sons stacked or save a wipe. Tho, don't forget about diminishing returns because the adds will get immune for stuns after the second one, regardless of rogue.

Anyway, here's the macro I'm using in case anyone needs. I suggest using the macro not instantly as the nameplates spawn, but a few after it untill the whole summon animation ends (sun starts growing big from ragnaros elemental seed).


#showtooltip Shadowmeld
/cast Shadowmeld
/target Son of Flame
/cast Cheap Shot
/s >> Stunning this Add <<


EDIT: You can use /targetenemy (it will target the closest enemy) as another solution to /target Son of Flame tho I never had an issue with it.



As assassination, on both Beth and Domo, it is possible to rupture the adds (Spinners/Cats) and gain a higher energy return when they die, allowing you to get another mutilate (and often rupture) up on another add/the boss. This can be chained for quite a few adds.


Indeed, this works out really fine.





Also, if someone's progressing in Heroic Ragnaros as Combat and is getting energy capped for GCD/Feinting the first Trap due to haste trinket procc's, Cloak of Shadows workss out fine due to being of GCD. Still preventing the damage from the trap and enabeling you to not cap that energy due to Feint GCD.

#345 Naihan

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 11:17 PM

Foxtail, you've never had problems with that macro stunning/targeting an add that you didn't intend to stun? It seems to me that if the adds are close together, that it may present problems.

#346 Foxtail

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 11:24 PM

Foxtail, you've never had problems with that macro stunning/targeting an add that you didn't intend to stun? It seems to me that if the adds are close together, that it may present problems.


Nah, normaly I'm already at the spawn point before using it being the closest add to me, tho I never use it once the add is not spawned yet (so it doesn't misstarget some other) I believe it targets the closest add and stuns it, therefore I never had any targeting issue. Tho people can use /targetenemy, I believe it works as fine.

#347 phalk

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Posted 25 October 2011 - 09:25 PM

I have big problems doing more DPS than Assassination on single target fights in combat spec.
It doesn't matter if I'm reforged into Combat or not, Assassination for me always end up being higher on single target.
Does anyone else suffer the same problems? I don't know it's because of latency problems or something like it. Shadowcraft says I'm almost 2k DPS ahead Assassination in Combat Spec (single target) but this doesn't translate well into the real game. All of that with almost the sameg gear level (378 weapons for both specs)
I'd like some suggestions to close this gap, if anyone have any.


Is it because Combat suffers much more than Assassination on target swap?

#348 fâte

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 08:00 AM

Yes Phalk I actually have the same issue as you. My combat MH is a 391 heroic too unlike my Assasination MH 378 dagger. I can probably equal my Assasination DPS on single target with good RNG, but not overtake it by the 1.5k dps that Shadowcraft suggests during a raid. I thought it was just down to practice but I gave combat a good go. Now I am back to Assasination. I would swap back for H Rag though since the expertise is needed and Combat would out-dps Assasination on that fight for sure.

I also find the Assasination rotation much more natural and flowing, but that is a personal thing. I find with combat you have to tunnel much more to make sure you hit all the right timings etc.

Yes, latency might be something to do with it if you are energy capping during AR or Heroism etc.

#349 Leitka

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 10:43 AM

Yes Phalk I actually have the same issue as you. My combat MH is a 391 heroic too unlike my Assasination MH 378 dagger. I can probably equal my Assasination DPS on single target with good RNG, but not overtake it by the 1.5k dps that Shadowcraft suggests during a raid. I thought it was just down to practice but I gave combat a good go. Now I am back to Assasination. I would swap back for H Rag though since the expertise is needed and Combat would out-dps Assasination on that fight for sure.

I also find the Assasination rotation much more natural and flowing, but that is a personal thing. I find with combat you have to tunnel much more to make sure you hit all the right timings etc.

Yes, latency might be something to do with it if you are energy capping during AR or Heroism etc.


Assassination isn't really a wash for Heroic Rag. It's quite good for P4 even. The times in which combat is strongest on Ragnaros are Phases 1-3, with Phase 4 making Killing Spree unusable at times. Assassination on the other hand does rather well in Phase 4 due to the execute phase.
If you feel you play better as assassination or simply prefer assassination, there's really no reason you shouldn't play it for the fight. While Blade Flurry is nice for the Sons, it's not a necessity. In the end it's an execution fight more than anything.

#350 Seliathan

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 12:04 PM

It actually depends on how your raid handles rag p4, since the boss usually faces towards the raid, rendering murderous intent pretty much useless. If you're pushing for one meteor and are having problems getting to the point where he's not casting anything anymore, you should give assassination a try, espacially since you are able to support in AoEing the seeds aswell.

#351 Armanewb

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 01:26 PM

It actually depends on how your raid handles rag p4, since the boss usually faces towards the raid, rendering murderous intent pretty much useless. If you're pushing for one meteor and are having problems getting to the point where he's not casting anything anymore, you should give assassination a try, espacially since you are able to support in AoEing the seeds aswell.


As a counterpoint, combat's Blade Flurry allows the raid to be back on Rag much faster (especially if you run with 2+ rogues) and not be wasting any resources on scions. Additionally, combat allows for better survivability due to restless blades making sprint's CD line up with every world in flames cast. Phase 4 isn't much of a DPS race anymore anyway, it's much more control-focused since they nerfed Rag's HP.

#352 Seliathan

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 02:28 PM

As a counterpoint, combat's Blade Flurry allows the raid to be back on Rag much faster (especially if you run with 2+ rogues) and not be wasting any resources on scions. Additionally, combat allows for better survivability due to restless blades making sprint's CD line up with every world in flames cast. Phase 4 isn't much of a DPS race anymore anyway, it's much more control-focused since they nerfed Rag's HP.


Not to forget that you can hand out a strong stun via Vanish-CS to leave a single add alone in the second intermission to nuke the hell out of the scions before rag emerges again. I also enjoy sprints cooldown reset via restless blades in p4, making rogues one of the favorite classes to extinguish the dreadflames.

Using BF on the scions isn't that big a deal if you're pushing for one meteor though, because if the raid isn't able to kill them both before rag emerges again without major cd usage, you're most likely not getting him down to 10% in time anyway.

#353 Armanewb

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 03:57 PM

Not to forget that you can hand out a strong stun via Vanish-CS to leave a single add alone in the second intermission to nuke the hell out of the scions before rag emerges again. I also enjoy sprints cooldown reset via restless blades in p4, making rogues one of the favorite classes to extinguish the dreadflames.

Using BF on the scions isn't that big a deal if you're pushing for one meteor though, because if the raid isn't able to kill them both before rag emerges again without major cd usage, you're most likely not getting him down to 10% in time anyway.


As well as a Revealing Strike - Kidney Shot for added control. I'd counter that some raids (like mine) have one scion alive going into P3, and the rogues' sole job is to use BF to cleave off Ragnaros onto the scion, which can be tremendous damage when cooldowns, potion, bloodlust and shattering throws are all used simultaneously. We haven't really had a problem pushing one meteor either.

#354 bretts2516

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Posted 11 November 2011 - 09:26 PM

After crawling through the various posts, I saw that when fighting Domo in scorpion form there is a place just off the pincher that you can stand to avoid being parried but still be available to damage share on the flame scythe.

Is there a place to stand when fighting Rag that will avoid all the parries?

#355 Crevan

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Posted 12 November 2011 - 12:47 AM

The "back" of Ragnaros spans 270 degrees, so more than 45 degrees either side of where the tank is standing is a parry-free zone.

#356 ildefonsus

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Posted 12 November 2011 - 09:01 PM

I know there has been discussion on points in cuop de grace vs ruthlessness, my question is how is that 1 point that is being debated in comparison to the 10 agi one would get from not having to use assain's step ench due to putting a point in quickening?

#357 Druss

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Posted 14 November 2011 - 02:01 PM

I know there has been discussion on points in cuop de grace vs ruthlessness, my question is how is that 1 point that is being debated in comparison to the 10 agi one would get from not having to use assain's step ench due to putting a point in quickening?


I think you will find that the discussion you are referring to has been as between Lethality and Coup de Gras rather than Ruthlessness and Coup de Gras. A talent point in any of these talents (Lethality, Coup de Gras and Ruthlessness) will be at least two to four times as good from a DPS perspective as a point in Quickening + 35 agi on boots instead.
Putting points in Quickening is a DPS loss - though if you elected to put two talents in here for 16% faster move speed and 20% more heals on a fight like Rag HC that might be understandable even though it will be a DPS loss.

#358 Iroared

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Posted 24 November 2011 - 08:38 PM

I didn't see it mentioned anywhere in the original post, but from my experience (not much as rogue), blade flurry damage on Rhyolith is reduced by armor stacks on the legs, so until the armor is low enough, it will do extremely little damage, so the line "makes him walk in a straight line" isn't quite true.

#359 ildefonsus

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Posted 24 November 2011 - 09:40 PM

I think you will find that the discussion you are referring to has been as between Lethality and Coup de Gras rather than Ruthlessness and Coup de Gras. A talent point in any of these talents (Lethality, Coup de Gras and Ruthlessness) will be at least two to four times as good from a DPS perspective as a point in Quickening + 35 agi on boots instead.
Putting points in Quickening is a DPS loss - though if you elected to put two talents in here for 16% faster move speed and 20% more heals on a fight like Rag HC that might be understandable even though it will be a DPS loss.


yes, the discussion was about ruthlesnes vs coup de grace in regards to not having a 30% bleed debuff. i am in a ten man guild with no bleed debuff so my current spec is only one point in ruthlessness and 3 in CdG, but i think you have answered my question none the less. thank you :)




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