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Shadow Priest PVE Guide (4.3 Updated)


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#41 winst

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Posted 06 August 2011 - 01:45 PM

Assuming all dots are up and do not need refreshing, is there a point at which just waiting for ~0.5 seconds (particularly with 4 part T12 bonus) when MB is just about to come off cooldown would be a DPS increase over casting MF for one tick?

Such that the GCD from casting MF as normal filler would delay the MB for a fraction of a second, obviously.

Apologies if this is already a DPS increase, I'm still of the school of thought that 'time spent not casting is lost dps and that is the end of that'.

#42 Arphastas

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Posted 07 August 2011 - 11:47 PM

Assuming all dots are up and do not need refreshing, is there a point at which just waiting for ~0.5 seconds (particularly with 4 part T12 bonus) when MB is just about to come off cooldown would be a DPS increase over casting MF for one tick?

Such that the GCD from casting MF as normal filler would delay the MB for a fraction of a second, obviously.

Apologies if this is already a DPS increase, I'm still of the school of thought that 'time spent not casting is lost dps and that is the end of that'.


Yes, I end up doing this a lot, especially with 4pc t12 MB hits like a mack truck, anytime you can use it do it.

#43 Carebare

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Posted 09 August 2011 - 03:12 PM

I just chucked around 20 posts from this thread. Some were useful, but unfortunately given that the entire line of conversation was providing tailored help to one individual asking relatively basic questions it added tremendous bulk for very minimal benefit. If important points were made that would benefit the lead post, please PM the author directly. Sorry for the inconvenience.
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#44 gaverick

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 07:06 PM

Vykas,
I'm a bit confused on the results based on your Vampiric Touch Haste table (w/o DI) and the Haste_Percent formula. What am I missing?
In the table you have Extra ticks for 2 = 20.2% haste, but your formula has it calculated as 30.0% to get 7 total ticks (2 additional ticks). Could you explain what formula you used to get the % values in your table? or what I've missed?

#45 vykas

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Posted 19 August 2011 - 04:27 AM

Vykas,
I'm a bit confused on the results based on your Vampiric Touch Haste table (w/o DI) and the Haste_Percent formula. What am I missing?
In the table you have Extra ticks for 2 = 20.2% haste, but your formula has it calculated as 30.0% to get 7 total ticks (2 additional ticks). Could you explain what formula you used to get the % values in your table? or what I've missed?


Right, the table shows you the information for your unbuffed haste whereas the formula lets you calculate it with your buffs (like shadow form). The important information from the tables is the actual number. The percent that it shows will be reflected in the percent when you hover over your haste amount on your character sheet.

#46 volaju

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Posted 19 August 2011 - 10:25 PM

I have a simple question concerning haste plateaus, just to put a debate to rest.

If you reach the point where you extend VT by 1 more tick, and the duration becomes 16.1 seconds as opposed to 13.9, when you refresh that VT, does the refreshed DoT have a 16.1 second duration every time after that as well, effectively shaving a GCD off your rotation every time you refresh it for the rest of the fight, or does the refreshed duration change every time, removing that GCD saving benefit?

I always thought it was a new duration every reapply based on how much time was left, but someone has been claiming it is 16.1 seconds every single time after, which is their primary reason for arguing in favor of haste plateaus being a huge deal. The way I understood it was that the only time the DoT's duration was longer than normal was the initial cast, which made the benefit a lot less significant if you reapply properly in a long fight.

#47 Erdluf

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 12:11 AM

I have a simple question concerning haste plateaus, just to put a debate to rest.

If you reach the point where you extend VT by 1 more tick, and the duration becomes 16.1 seconds as opposed to 13.9, when you refresh that VT, does the refreshed DoT have a 16.1 second duration every time after that as well, effectively shaving a GCD off your rotation every time you refresh it for the rest of the fight, or does the refreshed duration change every time, removing that GCD saving benefit?

I always thought it was a new duration every reapply based on how much time was left, but someone has been claiming it is 16.1 seconds every single time after, which is their primary reason for arguing in favor of haste plateaus being a huge deal. The way I understood it was that the only time the DoT's duration was longer than normal was the initial cast, which made the benefit a lot less significant if you reapply properly in a long fight.


When you refresh you get full duration, plus the in-progress tick. However, that does not save you a gcd per cast.

Haste level 1: Cast is 1 GCD, lasts 10 GCD
Haste level 2: Cast is 1 GCD lasts 11 GCD.

For 110 GCD of coverage, haste level 1 needs 11 casts, haste level 2 needs 10 casts. Haste level 2 saves 1 GCD every 10 or 11 casts (depending on how you count). In addition its GCD's would be slightly faster (unless you were GCD capped).

#48 grishaan

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 12:13 AM

It keeps the duration for every refresh so after refresheing your dot will have 16.1 +1 tick =about 18.x sec duration remaining every time. But you do not gain a GCD everytime you refresh the dot because with less haste you would have refreshed it too, just 2.x sec earlier. You just get the "saved" GCD once every 7th or 8th refresh because then you would have saved one complete reapply of the whole dot. Which means you get 2 max 3 GCDs per fight. This is why the haste"plateaus" don't make much of a difference (despite the DP-Plateau whose effect is stronger due to the frontloaddmg being dependent on the whole dot dmg).

#49 Dirael

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Posted 26 August 2011 - 02:18 AM

I have a few questions regarding Empowered Shadow, DoTs updating and Mind Blast. The first question is, do DoTs update dynamically with Empowered Shadow (excluding SW:P refreshes with MF)? I gather that they don't from a few of the comments, but I want to make absolutely sure.

If they do not update dynamically, what is the spell priority? Should DoTs be cast and then recast again as soon as ES procs? Should they be cast and then refreshed as they're about to fall off? Should they be delayed until ES is active?

Finally, the priority list indicates to me that Mind Blast should be cast on cooldown, regardless of ES. Am I interpreting this correctly, or should Mind Blast be saved if it would prevent ES from falling off?

#50 Sien

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Posted 26 August 2011 - 09:09 AM

Finally, the priority list indicates to me that Mind Blast should be cast on cooldown, regardless of ES. Am I interpreting this correctly, or should Mind Blast be saved if it would prevent ES from falling off?


The following is posted in the first post of this thread:

Since Mind Blast’s DPET increases with the number of shadow orbs available it is optimal to cast it when orbs are present, however, a Mind Blast with no shadow orbs still has a higher DPET than Mind Flay and should be used cool downs permitting.



#51 Cafecito

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Posted 01 September 2011 - 02:25 PM

I have a bit of a suggestion/question. On this page alone, there are several posts about refreshing DoTs. One asking about a mastery proc, and an answer saying that it depends on the DPET of the spell in question. Another asking about ES buff and reapplication of DoTs.

Would it be useful to include some more in-depth information about DoT refreshing in the first post? I just read through it again, and there's no mention of it. I think even some basic statements like,

"It's good to refresh all DoTs after your first ES buff" or "Refresh DP with trinket procs, but not SWP" would help eliminate further questions on it. Or, even better, maybe we should include some information (or a link of where to find the information) on DoT behavior, such as:


When and why you would refresh in the first place
When DoTs update with procs, buffs, etc, and when they don't
How DPET makes a difference in your decision

I'd be happy to help compile some of this information if people think it's worth having in the first post.

#52 winst

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Posted 03 September 2011 - 03:43 PM

Apologies if this has already been asked (the search feature is currently down). Is it worth moving even if you don't have to during the GCD caused by instants such as DP and SWD? Given that you have an increased chance of proccing apparitions during movement, naturally.

#53 Szeretlek

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Posted 03 September 2011 - 05:44 PM

Apologies if this has already been asked (the search feature is currently down). Is it worth moving even if you don't have to during the GCD caused by instants such as DP and SWD? Given that you have an increased chance of proccing apparitions during movement, naturally.


Assume you recast DP every 20sec - You will move ~1sec. So you will have 1 sec of additional move every 20 sec. In that 1 sec interval you have 60% chance to proc SA with SWP tick. SWP ticks every 2 sec with very high haste. Chances that SWP tick will hit in this interval - 50% i think.
Dont want bother with maths - simcraft show ~50dps (0.14% total DPS) decrease if not moving at all (even on execution phase with often SWD). But simcraft is a perfect robot and moving every instant cast. In human case that movements will distract you from the fight and even with perfect execution give you 0.14% dps. Human cant execute it properly, we have to stop moving earlier to queue next spell (so that will be even less then 0.1%dps increase) and that little moving will disturb you with boss mechanics.

P.S. But moving on execution phase with double SWD is a good idea anyway =)

#54 winst

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Posted 03 September 2011 - 09:29 PM

Assume you recast DP every 20sec - You will move ~1sec. So you will have 1 sec of additional move every 20 sec. In that 1 sec interval you have 60% chance to proc SA with SWP tick. SWP ticks every 2 sec with very high haste. Chances that SWP tick will hit in this interval - 50% i think.
Dont want bother with maths - simcraft show ~50dps (0.14% total DPS) decrease if not moving at all (even on execution phase with often SWD). But simcraft is a perfect robot and moving every instant cast. In human case that movements will distract you from the fight and even with perfect execution give you 0.14% dps. Human cant execute it properly, we have to stop moving earlier to queue next spell (so that will be even less then 0.1%dps increase) and that little moving will disturb you with boss mechanics.

P.S. But moving on execution phase with double SWD is a good idea anyway =)


Aye, I figured it wouldn't be a great increase but on the initial dot application, DP refreshes, Shadowfiend casts, SWDs and potential multi dotting, I thought it might be worth discussing. I don't find it that hard (in fact, I find myself moving automatically when I'm hitting instants) to strafe in these instances.

Edit: Additionally any time you are required to use a full duration Dispersion it is probably worth moving around.

#55 RillionDain

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 01:37 AM

Has anyone looked into the possibility of the Ragnaros trinket being better to use than the DMC:V?
I have tried to Sim it but I think I broke my Simcraft lol

#56 Szeretlek

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 04:20 AM

Has anyone looked into the possibility of the Ragnaros trinket being better to use than the DMC:V?

I simed it long ago and capacitor was so bad... In game capacitor doesnt get charges from dots. So even with damage buff it would be bad for dot specs.

#57 nikeplektrum

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 01:52 PM

I think he is referring to the stealth buff on it. Tried it out this morning and it seems to do a lot more damage than usual on the training dummy. It probably sims higher than DMC:V atm.

#58 Cafecito

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 04:58 PM

I was actually working on a rewrite for that reason. If you want to pass on your comments I'll gladly incorporate them


Well, I did a bit of research (between here and mmo-champion forums) and there are just some lingering questions that, if answered generally, might help intermediate players like myself make better choices. Whatever gets added to the first post doesn't need to be exhaustive, I don't think. But just enough so that players can make educated choices in those complex rotation moments.

For instance, I understood it that when a trinket procs, your DoT spellpower is automatically updated and would revert once the proc wore off. (As in, not what Affliction warlocks did with that trinket from Pit of Saron in WotLK). However many folks seem to be advocating refreshing DoTs once trinkets proc, which would insinuate that there is some value in putting up buffed DoTs. Also, many folks are saying to refresh all DoTs after your first ES proc. Does ES behave differently than trinket procs? Does that extra 10% last the full duration of DoTs even if it falls off before the DoT runs out? Things like this would be very helpful, I think.

Is there a place with general DoT behavior information out there? I poked around on WoW Wiki but couldn't find anything. I could dummy test in-game, but I'm unsure if certain trinkets behave differently than others regarding DoTs.

#59 Loot

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 05:46 PM

Dots behave exactly the opposite, the dot takes all modifiers at the moment cast completes, i.e. even if you have 0.1 seconds left of the trinket proc, casting the dot before it expires will make it last buffed the whole duration. Same with ES, unless you recast it, it will not take or lose the ES damage buff. To get the most out of strong procs, you have to refresh the dots once proc is up, then again when the proc fades. Mastery procs differ in that in order to get their benefit you have to cast MB with orb when trinket procs, then recast dots, then when the trinket buff is about to expire cast MB with orb again, and when the buffed ES is about to expire, refresh dots.

#60 Probaton

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 07:34 AM

Slightly more specifically: dots are updated by your own buffs on a per cast basis and by boss debuffs on a per tick basis.

The entire duration is modified by the stats you had when you cast it and each individual tick is modified by the debuffs the boss has when that tick lands.




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