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#41 Nevinyrral

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 01:34 AM

That looks like what I more or less came up with the other day when I was messing around with my gems/gear. Go to Stoneskin Gargoyle, Reforge for mastery like we have been doing outside of working for more expertise as needed.

Blue =
Yellow stays as is =
Red = if you need expertise otherwise

There is some other enchant changes as well that I noticed looking back at yours.
Gloves:
Feet:
Bracers:

Was curious if the changes are on the bases of maximizing all sources of stamina or if you used a specific weight for each?

#42 ZaoZao

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 07:47 AM

It would also push Leatherworking quite a bit higher on the list of professions, because there's still no Bracer - Stamina enchant in cata.

But going for more stamina is only a temporary fix. Assuming bosses hit even harder with 4.3 We'd get into even more trouble, without having the option to regem for stamina, while the other three tanks still have that option.

And a short note on the OP; With the hotfix to DS, wouldn't the GoDS have a higher threat/DPS value than RS? They all were fairly close together even before.
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#43 Pintofbrew

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 10:29 AM

IAssuming bosses hit even harder with 4.3 We'd get into even more trouble, without having the option to regem for stamina, while the other three tanks still have that option.


This is a very valid point, what this last bit of discussion has done, effectively, is debated the validity of slightly less effective mitigation in lieu of surviving the EH issue, which needs to be elliminated with class changes. We'll only run into the same problem later on when boss hits get even bigger, and once all the loose stats have been swapped from MST to STA there's not that much leeway left.

We need the EH issue addressed, no doubt, but until that happens sta-gearing for 25man HC seems to be inevitable in the search for survivability.

#44 Pintofbrew

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 10:38 AM

Separate post for a separate issue: With regards to hatchling tanking, I've noticed significant difference in tank DPS when sunder is given to my hatchling. In our 10-man we've occasionally lost the dps warrior who tried to debuff them due to the hatchlings agroing whoever is closest, but we've had good success with a hunter pet debuffing. I suspect the 4% physical debuff would also make a noted difference, so if you're running a FR DK one HB every so often can't hurt either. I was prepaired to swap to FC for my rune enchant and consider some STR trinkets, but sunder and prodigious DRW use has ensured mine are down within time so far.

#45 Otou

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 11:31 AM

For that example, it was enchanted under the assumption that "As long as you cannot survive 3 melee hits, stamina > all other stats".

I used , , and on my usual stamina gear to support that idea.

What I usually run with, are stat weights that say "Well itemized stamina is top priority. Mastery is a close second after stamina. Expertise soft cap is more important than avoidance. Once you have a fair amount of avoidance and dr picks up, start reforging into hit."

Set up in Mr.Robot's optimizer, it looks like this: Stamina Gearing (with hit and expertise)

#46 Otou

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 11:45 AM

Separate post for a separate issue: With regards to hatchling tanking, I've noticed significant difference in tank DPS when sunder is given to my hatchling. In our 10-man we've occasionally lost the dps warrior who tried to debuff them due to the hatchlings agroing whoever is closest, but we've had good success with a hunter pet debuffing. I suspect the 4% physical debuff would also make a noted difference, so if you're running a FR DK one HB every so often can't hurt either. I was prepaired to swap to FC for my rune enchant and consider some STR trinkets, but sunder and prodigious DRW use has ensured mine are down within time so far.


Along with using fallen crusader, , and ; I always try to make sure to run the hatchingling by the Blazing Talon Initiate whenever I'm not hunting down worms.

Alysrazor 25H log
Fraps from my healers pov

Usually the melee can throw up faerie fire and brittle bones, as well as get some splash damage on the hatchling. I often end up with the hatchling dead in time to spare.

#47 rocketj

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 03:19 PM

Separate post for a separate issue: With regards to hatchling tanking, I've noticed significant difference in tank DPS when sunder is given to my hatchling. In our 10-man we've occasionally lost the dps warrior who tried to debuff them due to the hatchlings agroing whoever is closest, but we've had good success with a hunter pet debuffing. I suspect the 4% physical debuff would also make a noted difference, so if you're running a FR DK one HB every so often can't hurt either. I was prepaired to swap to FC for my rune enchant and consider some STR trinkets, but sunder and prodigious DRW use has ensured mine are down within time so far.

You can also have a moonkin toss up ff and thorns on you. I had alot of trouble with my hatchling the first few weeks we pulled Aly and I noticed a big difference when the moonkin was helping with debuffs.

#48 nergal119

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 05:08 PM

As a history reminder, for those who are/were bringing up returning to the 60% armor bonus from BP from back in Wrath. I would just like to add that BP before about halfway-through Ulduar was actually an 80% armor buff that, nowadays, would put us roughly on par with druid armor.
So in case anyone decides to lobby for a return to a prior BP value, I just wanted to get that out there.

#49 Sherardp

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 07:50 PM

I created a spreadsheet that actually shows the amount mitigated with regards to rune recharge time. Mastery is better at mitigating it, but dodge is important also. The Blood Shield will Mitigate more damage more damage than dodge will. Also probability is probability. You can have a 40% dodge and parry and still take 100 hits in a row. Chances of it happening are slim to non, but its probability and every swing is not mutually exclusive.

The problem though going a full mastery build is the fact that users have to obtain higher levels of hit and expertise.

The problem of going a full dodge and parry build is Threat. A tanks two top Priorities are Threat and Damage Mitigation.

When a tank fails to do one they are not doing their job. I ran with a DK tank that has a 3% hit and 15 expertise, and This tank could not hold threat at all except with misdirects and tricks of the trade being thrown on them all the time. Where as with Myrothran, I have 7% hit and 20 expertise rating, and I have raid dps that pull over 29k dps and they never pull off me. The problem is I only have a 25% dodge and parry, but i have almost 26 point into mastery. Which equates to approximately 156% Blood Shield. This part isn't the problem but rune recharge is. This is why a good balance is desired. Regaurdless of what anyone says the numbers add up to show that mastery is better at mitigating damage, but dodge and parry are important to keep you up while waiting on runes. Anyone who focuses only one one aspect are not doing both jobs. Keep in mind Hit and Expertise are both damage mitigation stats for us also. Because it ensures we will have our blood shield exactly when we need it.

I did trade out for my 2 piece bonus for the other and i received about a 1% damage reduction in armor. This really only did one thing for me, I was doing about 8k DPS on single target mobs, where as now I do about 12k with keep the 2 piece bonus.

For those who do not know. Armor > Hit> Expertise> Master> Dodge&Parry> Stamina. This is information I deduced from my spread sheet and I tried to account for every aspect of damage even looking.

The problem with Armor and dodge and parry is diminishing returns. Where as Hit, Expertise and mastery do not have these. The key to everything everyone needs to try to balance out for what they need. I personally feel like I need more dodge and parry currently so that tanking beth'tilac will be easier. But at the same time I feel it is imperative that I try to keep at least 24 point into mastery. Which means I can't sacrifice very much hit. I am thinking of dropping my hit down to 6% instead of the 7, but I need the expertise because the majority of time when Death Strikes don't connect is because a boss parries the attack.

To summarize try to get your dodge = parry as best as possible and try to get it to 30% Where as try to keep your mastery about 24 points. This will make raid tanking very easy and doable for Firelands. Also refrain from tanking Beth'tilac as long as possible cause she can be a very stressful fight.

#50 Ayreal

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 08:38 PM

I created a spreadsheet that actually shows the amount mitigated with regards to rune recharge time.
...


You're making a lot of big claims without providing any of the "numbers." Perhaps you should link your spreadsheet so people can see how you're coming to these conclusions.

As for threat, you really shouldn't be struggling even if you're very low on hit and expertise. Making reference to one DK tank that you've come across that had threat problems doesn't exactly prove your point. Glyph of DRW should solve any sort of threat problems you encounter (if any). There's a decent argument for getting hit/expertise from people like Liar, but the argument has nothing to do with threat generation; it's to help your DS connect at optimal moments.

#51 Sherardp

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 09:19 PM

I don't claim anything. Plug in the numbers and see what you get. All of the calculations were tested and simulated to clarify the data.

What you do not see is some of the things I have also played with with regards to trying to maximize your efficiency tanking. This means the data displayed only displays with regards to moving one thing around. In a real world situation everything is interrelated still. Just play around and plug in numbers in any of the red blocks.

The basic information proves the following
Armor>Hit>Expertise>Mastery>Dodge&Parry>Stamina

Now, as with all things there is a bell curve to the efficiency table. That is why as mobs start hitting harder the following becomes true.
Armor>Hit>Expertise>Dodge&Parry>Mastery>Stamina

The reason Hit and Expertise are high up there are for threat and to ensure when you DS you connect within for attempts of hitting. If these go down the guarantee of keeping your blood shield up will go down. Once again everything is interrelated and this will only summarize for 100 hits at different damages. If you want to change those numbers feel free to, but I tried to keep the static to test the information.

The idea is to consider how much damage you will be taking then trying to maximize your damage mitigation derived from there. For example Beth'Tilac Hits for 60K damage, and for a fight like her it is more important to dodge and parry attacks. This is why trying to balance everything out is so important.

Sheet 1 is the page to view the damage mitigation at and Sheet 2 is to put your Character Stats at. Now, I dont recall if I made it so the information transfers over. But on Sheet 1 it shows that for anything under 55000 damage with my old set up would of been best for me to dodge build. With my new set up I need to find the time to plug in the numbers to validate which is best.

filehosting.org - download page for wow.xlsx

I am open to any feed back and constructive comments to make the spreadsheet better. But this means if you find a problem with something explain why you have a problem with it, and I will explain as to why I did it that way, and potentially I could of not thought about it, so I might have enhanced the spreadsheet to be even better.

#52 Sherardp

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 10:09 PM

As for threat, you really shouldn't be struggling even if you're very low on hit and expertise.


Your wrong here. Maybe if everyone is pulling 13k DPS this wont be a problem, but my dps for member of my raid team pull about 29k DPS. We tried to have a tank with less hit in there and the only way they could keep agroo without my guys having to stop DPS was every cooldown they used Tricks of the trade and Misdirect on the other tank.

There might be some exceptions such as Shannox where DPS don't attack either target at first. But fights like Baleroc where all dps is going balls to the wall at the start this is important. There might also be an exception where dps holds out on DPS for 3-5 secs. This is fine to get a lead, but my guys like to try to pull off the tank. And this is why if you loose threat your not doing your job.

#53 Otou

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 10:10 PM

I created a spreadsheet that actually shows the amount mitigated with regards to rune recharge...


I'm not quite understanding what you're saying with this...

  • We all know mastery is a great stat that controls the damage we take.
  • We all know avoidance is a nice stat. It reduces overall damage taken, increases blood shield up time, and can give healers breathing room while we tank.
  • We all know that hit and expertise increase the chance for your death strike to land in a pinch, as well as increasing threat and damage.
  • We all know armor is an amazing stat, that increases EH, and reduces total damage taken.

I "think" your trying to say that avoidance reduces more damage than mastery, and armor reduces more damage than avoidance? If so, than yes we all know this to be true as well.


The problem with stacking avoidance, is that its not reliable. Unless you can fill the combat table, you can still get hit 3 times in a row, and die like the tank with 10%~ less avoidance,

The problem with armor, is that you can't actually obtain sizeable amounts of it. There aren't any armor gems, the armor enchants are small, and the armor trinkets are terribly itemized. If there were ways to obtain large amounts of armor, we'd all be doing it.

The problem with mastery (which has been discussed in the previous pages), is that in the Firelands heroic / 25 encounters, you can die before you have time to death strike. Until you can be sure you'll live through 3 melee attacks, the value of mastery is questionable. Hit and expertise become devalued under this same reason. If you die before you have runes to spend no death strike.

This only leaves stamina, as a way of attempting to stay alive, versus bosses that are capable of 3-shotting you.

#54 Pintofbrew

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 10:16 PM

Along with using fallen crusader, , and ; I always try to make sure to run the hatchingling by the Blazing Talon Initiate whenever I'm not hunting down worms.

Alysrazor 25H log
Fraps from my healers pov

Usually the melee can throw up faerie fire and brittle bones, as well as get some splash damage on the hatchling. I often end up with the hatchling dead in time to spare.


Thanks for the suggestion, I think I'm going to give Crushing Weight a go, as the massive haste proc will not only result in higher DPS but also more shields, thus two birds with one stone.

#55 Sherardp

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 10:23 PM

I'm not quite understanding what you're saying with this...

  • We all know mastery is a great stat that controls the damage we take.
  • We all know avoidance is a nice stat. It reduces overall damage taken, increases blood shield up time, and can give healers breathing room while we tank.
  • We all know that hit and expertise increase the chance for your death strike to land in a pinch, as well as increasing threat and damage.
  • We all know armor is an amazing stat, that increases EH, and reduces total damage taken.

I "think" your trying to say that avoidance reduces more damage than mastery, and armor reduces more damage than avoidance? If so, than yes we all know this to be true as well.


The problem with stacking avoidance, is that its not reliable. Unless you can fill the combat table, you can still get hit 3 times in a row, and die like the tank with 10%~ less avoidance,

The problem with armor, is that you can't actually obtain sizeable amounts of it. There aren't any armor gems, the armor enchants are small, and the armor trinkets are terribly itemized. If there were ways to obtain large amounts of armor, we'd all be doing it.

The problem with mastery (which has been discussed in the previous pages), is that in the Firelands heroic / 25 encounters, you can die before you have time to death strike. Until you can be sure you'll live through 3 melee attacks, the value of mastery is questionable. Hit and expertise become devalued under this same reason. If you die before you have runes to spend no death strike.

This only leaves stamina, as a way of attempting to stay alive, versus bosses that are capable of 3-shotting you.


I am not disputing this at all. That's not the point to my post. I don't 25 man raid either so I cant dispute how hard these bosses hit. What I am trying to say is the stat that is the best changes, as damage goes up. And Balance is most important. In your circumstance Stamina might be the most important state to help keep you alive because of the extent of the damage done. That's what I am trying to prove here. By saying you as the Blood DK need to think about the environment for by which you will be tanking so that you can find the situation to mitigate the most damage and allow the healers to keep you alive.

#56 obsidia

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 10:59 PM

Sherardp we appreciate your input, it's just that at this stage of the game (in 25 mans) we know the basics. We're just trying to figure out how to survive the huge burst that bosses are capable of. Druids have a solution and it's a whole lot of mitigation (talents and armor), pallies block cap easily this tier, warriors are sort of in between druids and pallies because of critical blocks and high armor... DKs we don't know. I think so far what people are saying is stack stamina to survive the hit then heal it up with death strike.

So that's something to test out. But it's only a temporary solution and I'm sure blizzard will buff our mitigation before a new instance is out.

#57 riksuee

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 11:01 PM

Thanks for the suggestion, I think I'm going to give Crushing Weight a go, as the massive haste proc will not only result in higher DPS but also more shields, thus two birds with one stone.


I've thought about that on my alt too but won't the vengeance from two staminatrinkets be better damage increase anyway?

#58 Ayreal

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 11:45 PM

Your wrong here. Maybe if everyone is pulling 13k DPS this wont be a problem, but my dps for member of my raid team pull about 29k DPS.
...
And this is why if you loose threat your not doing your job.


First of all, I never said that if you lose threat you are still doing your job. I said that you shouldn't have a problem with threat to begin with, thus you should have that part of your job covered. If you're struggling with threat for whatever reason, then sure, grab some hit and/or expertise...but again, you really shouldn't need it. If you're losing threat on single targets, you probably have room for improvement with the attack choices you're making, or how you're timing them.

As I mentioned in my previous post, there's a strong case for grabbing hit/expertise (Liar comes to mind here), but it is not for threat reasons; it's for making sure your DS connects when you want it to (survival reasons, not threat reasons). The bonus threat is simply an added bonus.

Also, implying that the DPS I run with do 13k dps as opposed to the 29k that yours do doesn't help prove your point, either. Let's try to stay constructive here.

#59 Ayreal

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 11:59 PM

...I think so far what people are saying is stack stamina to survive the hit then heal it up with death strike.

So that's something to test out. But it's only a temporary solution and I'm sure blizzard will buff our mitigation before a new instance is out.


I had similar thoughts a few days ago and decided to regem to stamina and switch to stamina trinkets. Although my evidence is purely anecdotal at this point, it seemed to work pretty well. After this week's raids, I'll post my findings with some numbers to hopefully try and support this whole stamina-stacking idea. I hope others will do the same as the information becomes available.

#60 Otou

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 12:11 AM

I've thought about that on my alt too but won't the vengeance from two staminatrinkets be better damage increase anyway?


Unlike the tooltip would lead you to believe, the vengeance cap is 10% of base health + 10% of stamina.


363 strength * 1.05 (kings) * 1.15 (fallen crusader) * 2 (str ap value) = 877 ap



544 stam * 1.08 (blood press) * 1.09 (veteran) * 1.02 (stoneskin) * 1.05 (kings) * 0.1 (veng ap value) = 69 ap


If it was 10% of health, tanks would be doing some pretty insane damage on baleroc




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