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Frost DPS | Winter of Discontent [4.3]


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#21 Krabà t

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 01:34 AM

Has anyone checked out the possibility of doing 2pc tank 2pc dps? The fire damage proc is 400dps minimum if the dot cannot crit. Not to mention our obiliterates will always deal damage as if we had both diseases up. Would it be more beneficial to 2pc 2pc and then only repop disease when outbreak is up? Just spit balling some ideas and curious to know what some other people think

It'd be like running diseaseless back in early Wrath. You'll never pop plague strike, howling blast will already apply frost feaver, because it's affect by mastery and unholy strike isn't, and you still will deal damage as if you had both dots up with your obliterates


2pc Tank for Frost

There's your answer about that.

#22 Skullflower

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 06:14 AM

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#23 CortDK

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 08:18 AM

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#24 Ebonyeyes

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 10:10 AM

I'm pretty sure you can't calculate PoF for just one trinket, as you're assuming that you'd only use Pillar is using that one trinket. In reality if you'd then also have to give the passive strength trinkets the benefits of Pillar, so Apparatus would be ((383*1.20)/3)+383 or 536 strength, License would be ((380*1.20)/3)+380 or 532 strength. The sad fact is that the Essence has a lower amount of strength.


Think the math for Apparatus should be rather ( (383*1.2*20) + (383*40) ) / 60 = 409. Also, in raid environment passive STR trinket values is probably bigger, because they always take full benefit from Rune of FC, while for the proc trinkets it's quite random.

#25 Skullflower

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 03:00 PM

How exactly are you working this out? You're listing just a basic calculation of a trinket, and so to take off 19 DPS so arbitrarily without any math is very out of place and questionable. Similarly with the apparatus.


I must have overlooked it. The correct values for VoA are 2055 and 1735 respectively with no ramp up time penalties. Calculating ramp up times as well as other factors such as VoA stacking from 0-4 in between then would get quite complex and something I believe is not worth getting into. The differences would be extremely minimal and would only be a cause for concern on encounters like Alysrazor. Either way, VoA would still be greater than AoK and AoK greater than anything before it.

#26 Netukka

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 05:30 PM

Chilblains- Either you love it or you hate it. Essentially gives your Howling Blast a snare and gives your Chains of Ice a 3 second root, which can be a blessing on adds. Taking this is going to depend on your raid size as other classes will have similar skills at the 25 man level. This is going to change your spec and you'll end up dropping points from Improved Frost Presence.

This should probably be changed. Its much less hurtful to drop a point from Butchery/Epidemic (end up with 2/3), as the fights Chillblains is good for (H Beth/Rhyo), you should just sit in FP if you are designated to AoE. Maybe not for H Rhyo if you just randomly slow the slimes and tunnel legs (which should be left to other classes anyways). Its easy to solo a lane on H beth just sitting in FP for example.

#27 rh8452

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Posted 12 August 2011 - 10:18 AM

If you're "tanking" broodlings on Beth while handling a spiderling spawn, unholy presence's run speed is much more important.

I solo an entire spawn in 25-man without difficulty using unholy presence. Frost presence's extra damage is nice for the sustained AOE, but after the spiderlings are all dead you will have little to no time to DPS anything else before a new wave of spiderlings spawns, which you will need to run to in order to begin DPSing. Any minute gain you see from frost presence is lost from the extra time it takes to run from point to point. Also if you get Fixate, you are at a disadvantage unless you presence swap into UHP anyway.

For Rhyolith, Fragments live for a short enough period of time for frost presence to not provide a significant enough advantage here either. There is also sufficient running around catching bloods involved for runspeed to also be the biggest DPS increase here as well.

I haven't experienced any scenarios where frost presence has provided me much if any benefit thus far in this expansion, compared to unholy presence. The few places where you are sustaining AOE for a long period also happen to be places where you need to be constantly moving or running from fires or orbs or whatever.

#28 Preach

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Posted 12 August 2011 - 10:49 AM

For Rhyolith, Fragments live for a short enough period of time for frost presence to not provide a significant enough advantage here either. There is also sufficient running around catching bloods involved for runspeed to also be the biggest DPS increase here as well.


On side note to this. It is far more beneficial to be running as Unholy during Lord Rhyolith even being slightly below hit cap from a frost setup. I swap a couple of items to bump up the hit. Unholy contributes so much more damage than frost can put out if you are on leg duty.

A log of the comparison although not a flawless try by any means.
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

#29 Pintofbrew

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Posted 12 August 2011 - 01:00 PM

I was under the impression we ran the numbers somewhere deep in the old thread and decided that unless you heavily stack mastery FP is never superior to UP, except in the case where adds have so few HPs that the faster rune CD on UH would not manifest, presumably because the adds would die within 4xHB.

Either way, I should echo that whenever there's been a move-sensitive encounter so far in the game, run speed (Even the pathetic 8% of the boot enchant) has outperformed any other damage gain. In these cases, your role is utility, and as utility provided your targets do eventually die, shaving a few % off the time they are up will make no difference, while ensuring you are able to do it by being 15% faster will.

#30 CortDK

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Posted 14 August 2011 - 07:03 AM

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#31 Halle

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Posted 14 August 2011 - 12:21 PM

Nice work Cort.

As always it's worth noting that in Patchwerk situations our spell hit will be worth more than the obvious benefits to cleave damage given by more mastery in fights where adds etc get involved. This will both be due to mastery providing bigger boom on your AoE and any adds not being boss level.

Correct me if I'm wrong (wouldn't be the first time).

#32 Krabà t

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Posted 14 August 2011 - 04:52 PM

Head : HitRating -> MasteryRating
Neck : CritRating -> HasteRating
Waist : MasteryRating -> HasteRating
Legs : ExpertiseRating -> MasteryRating
Feet : CritRating -> HitRating
Wrists : CritRating -> MasteryRating
Hands : HitRating -> HasteRating
Ring1 : ExpertiseRating -> MasteryRating
Ring2 : CritRating -> HasteRating
Trinket1 : ExpertiseRating -> HasteRating
WeaponMainHand : HitRating -> HasteRating
WeaponOffHand : HitRating -> HasteRating
Range : CritRating -> MasteryRating


Just changing the reforge on both weapons to mastery-->haste would give you 817 hit and additional haste compared to the set from page 1.
From page 1
Weapon only
Quoted reforge

#33 Feuergeist

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Posted 14 August 2011 - 05:25 PM

I got the chance to go in the air on a normal Alyrazor kill and got something that struck my as interesting.

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

If you check my damage by spell, melee is at the top. Now given, this is obvious with the haste buff being so rediculous but it seems to me that as you get to higher levels of haste hit over 8% becomes more important.

#34 CortDK

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 02:22 AM

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#35 CortDK

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 06:12 AM

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#36 Pintofbrew

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 10:33 AM

Quite, I'd argue a Fr DK is probably one of the least efficient choices for Alysrazor airphase. It's not so much that your melee is inflated, as your OB isn't as inflated as everything else. Arguably a firemage would be optimal for airphase. You also can't summon a ghoul while flying (I believe, correct me if otherwise).

You shouldn't bother gearing to maximize Alys air phase, if you're that bothered about overall raid performance, you should swap your spot for someone who can fully use the crit buff.

#37 naliel

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 04:16 PM

If you are playing 25man Alysrazor you can still go up after the last meteor cuddeling phase, get ~13stacks which is enough haste to just spam obliterate as heroism / bloodlust is also used for the burn phase. 25 stacks aren't necessary.

#38 CortDK

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 05:37 AM

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#39 xanthic42

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 10:22 AM

Is simulationcraft correctly modelling trinkets for dks? I know there is a general consensus that Frost DKs sim higher than is possible in game, however while checking the main bis trinkets(h-HoR is the second trinket in all sims) I see barely any difference in the dps values for the 4 best trinkets.

Simulationcraft Results
( I realize heroic Essence of the Eternal Flame doesn't exist in game, and that optimally it should be reforged to haste).

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My personal stat weights which supports cortdk's findings.
Simulationcraft Results

#40 CortDK

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 12:17 PM

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