Jump to content


Photo

Frost DPS | Winter of Discontent [4.3]


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
577 replies to this topic

#41 Arthek

Arthek

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 46 posts

Posted 16 August 2011 - 02:06 PM

Apparatus needs a use line as well. And I think the gear line for it will need a full description. I just gave it a 15 second duration for the full amount of haste with an internal cool down of 2 minutes. I also forced it to line up with pillar of frost ( if=buff.pillar_of_frost.react), and told it not to activate in the first 30 seconds (&if=time>=30) since it can't be used without building up initial charges.

Apparatus is tweaked in SimCraft to 'proc' as soon as you get 5 charges and it comes off cooldown.

#42 CortDK

CortDK

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 124 posts

Posted 16 August 2011 - 02:19 PM

---

#43 CortDK

CortDK

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 124 posts

Posted 17 August 2011 - 03:44 AM

---

#44 Guest_-highwind-_*

Guest_-highwind-_*
  • Guests

Posted 17 August 2011 - 05:12 PM

One problem with AoK/hAoK (which sims probably do not consider) is that is loses out some value because it cant be effectivly used together with heroism/bloodlust:

- If it is lined up with heroism/bloodlust one will probably be "overstacked" with haste resulting in unused runes/rp due to gcd issues
- If it isnt lined up with heroism/bloodlust one could potentially miss (or atleast needs to delay) an use of it and would also lose its "interaction" with heroism/bloodlust (when compared to other trinkets like EotEF)

Considering the fact that it is BoE and sells for a good amount I would just stay away from it and use HoR/EotEF/VoA

#45 prigioniera

prigioniera

    Banned

  • Banned
  • 1 posts

Posted 18 August 2011 - 12:52 AM

Ok, as I am faced with the ever present trinket question myself, I did some calculations. Long story short, Apparatus of Khaz'goroth, Essence of the Eternal Flame, and License to Slay all seem to have about the same amount of average strength, and about the same amount of secondary stats. My calculations for this were as follows:

Apparatus has 383 strength and 2504 haste on a 2 min cd for 15 sec. 2504 is 313 static haste. That is to say 2504/8 (15 secs of 2 min is 1/8 uptime). I don't count the need to wait for procs because we are Frost DKs...crits aren't really a problem...

Essence of the Eternal Flame has 383 Mastery with 1277 strength on use. 1277 strength for 15 secs every 1 min equals 383 average strength assuming you always macro it with your PoF (1277*1.2 then divided by 4 as it is active 1/4 of it's cd).

License to Slay has 321 hit and, essentially, 380 strength.

I'm not considering DMC:H because I don't have it and am not paying for it as I don't see it being worth the gold considering the trinkets I already have.

This means that all trinkets have an effective 380-383 strength and that Essence of the Eternal Flame has the most secondary stats.


I think we've been made a mistake here: firstly, we always use Pillar at the beginning of the fight or when Time Wrap/Bloodlust, so Essence of the Eternal Flame shall be the best one to fit this 2 condition(and the cooldown time is same as Piller, 1min both), and besides all of this, for DW frost talent, only 601 hit rating to cap, so the License to Slay shall be waste of stats.

#46 CortDK

CortDK

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 124 posts

Posted 18 August 2011 - 06:15 AM

===

#47 Fyllbo

Fyllbo

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 1 posts

Posted 19 August 2011 - 11:21 AM

My post assume Dual wielding and close to an average Item level of 391.

If the stats weight in OP is somewhat correct. Does it mean we will start gemming [+20str/20haste] for +10str and +20 haste bonuses/gem?

Stat 378 DW 391 DW
Strength 3.10 3.20
Yellow Hit 2.29 2.27
Expertise 1.64 1.87
Haste 1.47 1.78


Example: have 2 Yellow sockets and a socket bonus of +20 Strength. With an average Item level of 378 it suggest I should use 2 st Bold Inferno Ruby(+40 Strength) and skip the socket bonus to get the biggest stat weight gain since strength is more than double the weight of Haste.

But at an average Item level of 391, haste have changed to ~55.6% of strengths weight.

If I Socket Elementium Deathplate Breastplate with 2 st Bold Inferno Ruby I will get +80 Strength.
80*3,20= 256 Stat weight.

If I socket Elementium Deathplate Breastplate with 2 st Fierce Ember Topaz I will get +40 Strength, +40 Haste and 20 Strength from the socket bonus and this should add up to_
(40*3,20)+(40*1,78)+(20*3,20)= 128 + 71,2 + 64 = 263,2 Stat weight.

#48 Krabà t

Krabà t

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 23 posts

Posted 19 August 2011 - 11:37 AM

My post assume Dual wielding and close to an average Item level of 391.

If the stats weight in OP is somewhat correct. Does it mean we will start gemming [+20str/20haste] for +10str and +20 haste bonuses/gem?

Stat 378 DW 391 DW
Strength 3.10 3.20
Yellow Hit 2.29 2.27
Expertise 1.64 1.87
Haste 1.47 1.78


Example: have 2 Yellow sockets and a socket bonus of +20 Strength. With an average Item level of 378 it suggest I should use 2 st Bold Inferno Ruby(+40 Strength) and skip the socket bonus to get the biggest stat weight gain since strength is more than double the weight of Haste.

But at an average Item level of 391, haste have changed to ~55.6% of strengths weight.

If I Socket Elementium Deathplate Breastplate with 2 st Bold Inferno Ruby I will get +80 Strength.
80*3,20= 256 Stat weight.

If I socket Elementium Deathplate Breastplate with 2 st Fierce Ember Topaz I will get +40 Strength, +40 Haste and 20 Strength from the socket bonus and this should add up to_
(40*3,20)+(40*1,78)+(20*3,20)= 128 + 71,2 + 64 = 263,2 Stat weight.




Sure Str/Haste will be better at a higher itemlevel. A while ago someone pointed out that the value of haste increases up to the point where your runereg lines up with your gcd (for UP at 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8... seconds of runereg time) and dropps afterwards.
This means sitting at 25,x% haste will favor 2x 40 Str, while 26,x% and more will favor Str/Haste. The next "softcap" would be at around 42% of haste from gear.

#49 Charybdis

Charybdis

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 289 posts

Posted 20 August 2011 - 12:18 AM

Sure Str/Haste will be better at a higher itemlevel. A while ago someone pointed out that the value of haste increases up to the point where your runereg lines up with your gcd (for UP at 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8... seconds of runereg time) and dropps afterwards.
This means sitting at 20,x% haste will favor 2x 40 Str, while 21,x% and more will favor Str/Haste. The next "softcap" would be at 30% of haste from gear.


The "softcaps" don't come in 10% haste intervals though. It takes 11.1_% total haste for 9 second rune regen, then 25% haste for 8, ~42.85 haste for 7, etc.

One of the main reasons haste (and other secondary stats) gains ground versus strength is because those stats are percentage-based while strength isn't. Strength will always add a set amount of extra damage to each attack, while the secondary stats modify that extra damage in different ways and always by a certain percentage. Because of this, secondary stats technically have exponential scaling compared to strength, so the raw damage from increasing one of them will eventually be more than the same increase in strength. It's because of this that there are no universal stat weights, since each stat scales differently and simple ratios cannot accurately show that scaling.

Edit: Ran the haste numbers for multiples of 1.5. It's still 11.11_% haste for 9, then 33.33_% for 7.5, 66.66_% for 6, and 122.22_% for 4.5.

#50 Mhobius

Mhobius

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 25 posts

Posted 20 August 2011 - 09:45 PM

Regarding races, Orcs performs best for Frost DW and you should mention that. It's actually the race used by Simulationcraft in its Frost DW profile in the dps chart. There's still confusion around what race does the best atm and some people still believe Goblins/Worgen are better, but in reality they aren't.

#51 CortDK

CortDK

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 124 posts

Posted 21 August 2011 - 07:39 AM

---

#52 AtheistGod

AtheistGod

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 127 posts

Posted 22 August 2011 - 10:03 AM

The "softcaps" don't come in 10% haste intervals though. It takes 11.1_% total haste for 9 second rune regen, then 25% haste for 8, ~42.85 haste for 7, etc.

One of the main reasons haste (and other secondary stats) gains ground versus strength is because those stats are percentage-based while strength isn't. Strength will always add a set amount of extra damage to each attack, while the secondary stats modify that extra damage in different ways and always by a certain percentage. Because of this, secondary stats technically have exponential scaling compared to strength, so the raw damage from increasing one of them will eventually be more than the same increase in strength. It's because of this that there are no universal stat weights, since each stat scales differently and simple ratios cannot accurately show that scaling.

Edit: Ran the haste numbers for multiples of 1.5. It's still 11.11_% haste for 9, then 33.33_% for 7.5, 66.66_% for 6, and 122.22_% for 4.5.


Haste, Strength, Crit, Mastery, Expertise, Hit are all linear. None of them are exponential. However, other than Hit/Expertise they all scale with each other. This means more Strength increases the value of Haste and more Haste increases the value of Strength. More Crit likewise, increases the value of both Strength and Haste. Each stats weighting is independent of itself but dependent upon all of the other stats.

#53 xbit

xbit

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 54 posts

Posted 24 August 2011 - 11:33 AM

I haven't seen much talk on DMC:H lately since the trinket is pretty out dated for any real progression this tier so I can't really help you with that, but I'm pretty sure HoR will slip ahead while you need the expertise

In simulation at least, DMC:H is 2nd BiS to H-HoR at least until you have a H-AoK or H-VoA available to you. This is because the proc value of DMC:H is worth quite a bit of DPS. In an actual raid setting, I've seen the proc be worth ~800 dps multiple times on tank and spank fights. Of course, for fights where you need burst dps in 1 minute intervals (Rag), EotEF pulls ahead, at least in usefulness to your raid.

#54 Ugro

Ugro

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 1 posts

Posted 24 August 2011 - 03:26 PM

I was wondering which trinket to use and I´ve done some testing, comparing LTS, DMC:H and EotEF.

On Baleroc, DMC:H proc was worthy around 1.6% of my almost 30k DPS. So DMC:H resulted in 321 str and 480 DPS, which was a bit better then LTS.
On Majordomo HC, it was only around 1.2% ... it pulls LTS ahead.

Its hard to say which trinket is the best. It depends on your gear setup. But in General, I can say something like that (comparing only normal version of trinkets, and not comparing H-HoR that is simply the best):

EotEF is best for encounters that ends around (2x-1):25 (3:25, 5:25, 7:25 ...) and for fights where you are moving a lot and sometimes waiting to attack something (Beth'tilac, Alysrazor) and for encounters where you need burst damage (Beth'tilac, Ragnaros, Alysrazor) But still, it depends on your gameplay. If you cant properly time usage of your PoF (macro´ed with your EotEF use) you can lose possiblity to use it, which will result in less DPS than constantly-weighted trinkets. Dont forget to use your Raise Dead ability when PoF+EotEF are UP. In general, it IS worht waiting.

AoK is best for encounters that ends around (2x):25 (2:25, 4:25, 6:25, ... ). Very similar to EoTEF. It TOPs EotEF by a small amount if its not linked together with BL / Heroism (which results in DPS loss).

LTS is best for encounters that end x:00 (4:00, 5:00, 6:00). If encounters end like that and you dont need burst damage, its better than EotEF and AoK.

DMC:H is best on Patchwerk style encounters. (Baleroc, and even Shannox, if you know how to move and your tank is not running too fast :) )

So my choice would be something like that:

Shannox: DMC:H
Lord Rhyloith: AoK / EotEF
Beth'tilac: AoK / EotEF
Alysrazor: AoK / EotEF
Baleroc: DMC:H
Majordomo: LTS or AoK / EotEF (depends only on length of the fight)
Ragnaros: Aok / EotEF

Sorry for my english, and correct me if my calculations are wrong :). Thanx

#55 CortDK

CortDK

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 124 posts

Posted 25 August 2011 - 04:26 AM

---

#56 rh8452

rh8452

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 228 posts

Posted 25 August 2011 - 05:16 AM

I am finding using a priority system where you play quasi-shadowfrost to result in similar if not better DPS. It was originally mentioned by someone on the official forums in a now-buried thread, and I had been experimenting with something similar so gave the poster's suggestion a try.

For heroic Ragnaros I at least have been playing a mastery stacked build with Essence of the Eternal Flame for seeds. With 22.5ish mastery, the differential between KM FS and KM OB is extremely small, so instead of the standard "rotation", I've adopted a more HB/FS centric priority where one unholy rune always remains off cooldown, and OB is only used to put a single unholy rune on cooldown so that runic empowerment cannot refresh anything but a frost or death rune. Otherwise, KM procs are all used on FS and HB spam is what you otherwise do. The talent and glyph setup is identical to the standard one, just the priority system changes, though I went 5/31/5 as the additional 3 sec disease duration isn't necessary. During bloodlust or if Crushing Weight procs, I revert to the standard OB priority as you otherwise resource cap in UHP with that level of haste.

Using this priority has not been a DPS loss on the other fights, and in fact has shown a noticeable gain for me on Baleroc and Shannox in particular. While my guild's logs are private, the last H Baleroc 25 kill we did would have put me around a 50th rank frost parse, somewhat respectable in my level of gear.

I'm fairly convinced that additional haste provides us less of a benefit outside of reaching rune "breakpoints" and that mastery becomes slightly better if the next breakpoint is unreachable. Outside of Baleroc or Shannox (depending how you do it) every fight in this tier is multi-target or has you hitting things from range, and mastery scales significantly better when the number of targets exceeds 1.

The awfulness of the 4pc tier set also favors using such a priority.

#57 CortDK

CortDK

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 124 posts

Posted 25 August 2011 - 05:39 AM

---

#58 rh8452

rh8452

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 228 posts

Posted 25 August 2011 - 08:47 AM

I've been doing this priority DWing. You still do use oblit, you just only oblit every 8ish seconds if both diseases are up, or oblit spam during lust to burn runes. So you still use the oblit glyph and the 4pc accounts for ~1.2% damage instead of 2.1% or whatever it would normally account for. I have about the same amount of downtime doing this as I would using the normal priority or a pure HB/DnD shadowfrost priority. I will say it is a much harder priority to play than the normal one as it requires very active monitoring of rune cooldowns and availability, the normal priority can be done with a simple "push whatever button is lit up" playstyle.

The reason it works is because while you're oblitting less, your RP generation per rune is higher (HBx2 giving 40 vs OB giving 30, not counting IFP) and you still do get rime HBs, which puts your RP generation slightly higher than the normal priority would though still below a 2H spec.

Hitting spell hitcap is also more or less unnecessary since the only resource loss you can incur is if you miss a rime HB, which you only get ~3 of per minute, or an outbreak. Very unlikely.

Because the single target DPS I've been putting out on bosses like Shannox or Baleroc is at least the same as it would be using the normal priority, I don't have to sacrifice P3 Rag DPS for better P2 AOE. But I've found the DPS to honestly even be better sometimes on single targets. Whether this is incredible RNG, or the sim simply not working properly at gauging the value of mastery, is hard to say.

ed: I'll also add that theorycrafting is going to push us into such a priority sometime next tier if we are able to reach a level of mastery where KM FS = KM OB, especially if whatever tier bonuses we get don't hinge on OB. I believe we will be able to reach this level of mastery next tier and at that point, this priority system should definitely sim higher.

ed2: This also makes me question the value of AoK. Gaining 2540 haste for 15 sec would provide about 2 additional runes worth of damage and some extra KM procs. Gaining 2540 mastery would cause FS damage to strongly exceed oblit damage during that time and would be very strong for burst AOE. If you're GCD capped in BiS, more runes aren't particularly useful comparitively.

#59 Anathem

Anathem

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 14 posts

Posted 25 August 2011 - 08:51 AM

Specific Stat Weights

Preliminary stat weights are as follows:

[table="head"]Stat | 378 DW | 378 2H | 391 DW | 391 2H
Strength | 3.10 | 2.64 | 3.20 | 2.76
Yellow Hit | 2.29 | 2.01 | 2.27 | 2.27
Expertise | 1.64 | 1.63 | 1.87 | 1.89
Haste | 1.47 | 1.29 | 1.78 | 1.44
Mastery | 1.44 | 1.26 | 1.57 | 1.39
Crit | 1.16 | 1.15 | 1.28 | 1.28
Hit Over Yellow | 1.06 | - | 1.09 | -


How is "Hit Over Yellow" calculated? I can't figure out how to make simcraft give me this.

#60 Flyx

Flyx

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 23 posts

Posted 25 August 2011 - 12:33 PM

Using this priority has not been a DPS loss on the other fights, and in fact has shown a noticeable gain for me on Baleroc and Shannox in particular. While my guild's logs are private, the last H Baleroc 25 kill we did would have put me around a 50th rank frost parse, somewhat respectable in my level of gear.
The awfulness of the 4pc tier set also favors using such a priority.


I have very similar gear, practically identical, and without using any golembloods or using army pre-pull, I am ranked 9th on Baleroc, 1.2k DPS higher than the 50th rank. I can't see how you can possibly say that shadowfrost is better or competitive single target when it really isn't. 3.8% DPS increase doing the normal priority (without army or pots) is not a small gain by any means, especially when you talk about Ragnaros heroic and the DPS check in P3.

Also, without changing any of my gear from T11, I have the highest ranked Rhyolith kill at 38.5k DPS, where I basically went around spamming HB. That was with haste stacked gear, not mastery. I know that it's not exactly the best sample, but to claim mastery stacking is superior on multi targets and at least the same on single targets is wrong in my opinion.


Multi target burst I can agree mastery is best, multi target sustained I cannot be sure, but single target I am sure haste is better.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users