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Unholy DPS | My Friend of Misery [4.3.0]


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#421 Ripebear1

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 09:28 PM

I seem to be having a problem with my rotation as Unholy.

My armory is linked but I am currently sitting at 2562 haste and still getting runes locking up during encounters. I'm been told I should never really have nothing to do with this amount of haste.

Specifically today I was doing Ultraxion and on several occasions my runes we're locking up for 2-3 seconds at a time and seriously impacting my DPS.

Am I missing something? I'm following the priority to a T.

Basically something like this..

Diseases > DT > DND/SS > DC if close to RP cap > FS if Blood/frost runes > DC > HoW

I always use DC if sudden doom procs.

I DC spam if DT isn't up, i use AMS when magic abilities are up, I never frenzy while Lust is up.. Not sure what I'm doing wrong but I'm locking up quite a lot. Is there something I'm missing in the rotation? I've read the main page and guides all over in detail and from what I've seen I'm doing it right.
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#422 gharnef

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 03:03 AM

I seem to be having a problem with my rotation as Unholy.

My armory is linked but I am currently sitting at 2562 haste and still getting runes locking up during encounters. I'm been told I should never really have nothing to do with this amount of haste.

Specifically today I was doing Ultraxion and on several occasions my runes we're locking up for 2-3 seconds at a time and seriously impacting my DPS.

Am I missing something? I'm following the priority to a T.

Basically something like this..

Diseases > DT > DND/SS > DC if close to RP cap > FS if Blood/frost runes > DC > HoW

I always use DC if sudden doom procs.

I DC spam if DT isn't up, i use AMS when magic abilities are up, I never frenzy while Lust is up.. Not sure what I'm doing wrong but I'm locking up quite a lot. Is there something I'm missing in the rotation? I've read the main page and guides all over in detail and from what I've seen I'm doing it right.


At 2500 haste, on Ultraxion, you're more likely to be capped in runes than empty, the issue is probably the DC spam for DT, you only want to DC when you have sudden doom procs, are about to cap, or can't use SS/FS.

#423 Ripebear1

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 11:50 AM

At 2500 haste, on Ultraxion, you're more likely to be capped in runes than empty, the issue is probably the DC spam for DT, you only want to DC when you have sudden doom procs, are about to cap, or can't use SS/FS.


I see. I ended up changing back to Frost since my DPS was lacking in Ultraxion. I thought this encounter would seriously benefit from the straight up single target prolonged damage.

So your saying just play as per usual after DT falls off and get it up gradually? For frost I have No'Kaled agi weapon, and Obsidium Cleaver from Firelands and it seems to be out dps'ing unholy on all fronts. Even on a dummy for 5 minutes.

This isn't normal is it? I need to find someone with similar gear to compare statistics, and get the log from last night so it can be analyzed.
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Here is log for Ultraxion normal, you can see my gear my profile.

Can anyone tell me what I'm doing wrong here by looking at log?

The main reasons I can think of for me lacking in DPS for Unholy is:

Trinkets. Vessel and Heart of rage are pretty low in terms of DPS, especially heart of rage in Unholy as Expertise is useless. Also my weapon, the slicer isn't a terrible weapon but Gurthalaks proc is a nice boost. Other than that I seem to be doing ok in logs. The main reason DC is above SS is utilising AMS for extra RP.
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#424 Maikro

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 02:48 PM

I see. I ended up changing back to Frost since my DPS was lacking in Ultraxion. I thought this encounter would seriously benefit from the straight up single target prolonged damage.

So your saying just play as per usual after DT falls off and get it up gradually? For frost I have No'Kaled agi weapon, and Obsidium Cleaver from Firelands and it seems to be out dps'ing unholy on all fronts. Even on a dummy for 5 minutes.

This isn't normal is it? I need to find someone with similar gear to compare statistics, and get the log from last night so it can be analyzed.
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Here is log for Ultraxion normal, you can see my gear my profile.

Can anyone tell me what I'm doing wrong here by looking at log?


One thing I do for a fight like Ultraxion and any other where there is some DC travel time (madness, etc) is start your DC spam at about 1.5-2 seconds left on the DT buff on Timmy. Due to the travel time of the projectile, usually, it will hit just as that buff falls off, giving you a GCD worth of a head start on your stacking.

Another thing to watch out for in that same regard is that if you are anticipating using DT because you know you have just DC'd 5 times, you usually have to use another ability in between due to the travel time. For example:

You have 2xSudden Doom and 105 RP, and your DT buff has just worn off of Timmy. You should DCx5, SS, DT. If you DCx5 and spam DT instead waiting for that last stack to appear on Timmy, you will have wasted a GCD, and doing that every 30 seconds or so is a clear DPS loss.

Looking at your logs, you only used AMS twice during the fight. AMS is one of your best DPS cooldowns for fights with predictable AOE damage, and should be used every chance possible to maximize your DPS. Try this:

You have BBFFUU, 55 RP, and 10 seconds left on Timmy's DT buff. AMS is off of CD in 5 seconds.
SS/FS/SS--AMS comes off of CD;~95 RP--FS/DC/DC;~41 RP--DT buff wears off, probably have 1 stack from last DC--AMS/DCx4-5/SS/DT

That setup basically gives you only about 9 seconds where you do not have the DT buff on Timmy. For your next DT, AMS will not be ready, but if you are paying attention to that you can use only enough DCs to keep high RP for quick empowering next go around. Worst case scenario, you are unlucky with procs and are low on resources to the point that you only get 1-2 DCs off before your AMS comes back up, so you could AMS after 15 seconds of DT downtime and reset the cycle.

You can also stay out for an Hour of Twilight every so often (assuming you are not a designated soaker already), using IBF+AMZ+AMS to soak which gives you a few extra seconds of uptime as well as free RP from AMS.

Also, what gear setup do you have? Do you have Gurthalak? I don't see any Tentacle damage so if you do have one, either you got shafted with luck or your group is not stacking close enough to the boss for it to do any damage. Are you valuing Crit > Mastery or Mastery > Crit? Are you reforging away as much expertise as possible or going for cap? Looking at your logs I would say Crit > Mastery simply due to the lower amount of damage dealt by the shadow portion of your SS.

I see you still have Heart of Rage and Vessel of Acceleration, which is less than optimal at this point in the tier. I'd say honestly your damage is not far off of what it should be using those old trinkets and without Gurthalak. You may be able to squeeze another 2-3k out of it but I wouldn't expect much more. Remember that Gurthalak is a massive increase due to the fact that our mastery increases the damage done by the proc.

Here's one of my logs if you'd like to compare numbers, though this is for Heroic Ultraxion. Here is my armory for gearing setup as well if you need it.

#425 gharnef

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 06:50 PM

So your saying just play as per usual after DT falls off and get it up gradually? For frost I have No'Kaled agi weapon, and Obsidium Cleaver from Firelands and it seems to be out dps'ing unholy on all fronts. Even on a dummy for 5 minutes.

*snip*

The main reason DC is above SS is utilising AMS for extra RP.


For your first point, the reason why you don't want to immediately spam 5 DCs to get your DT back up is that if you do that, you will undoubtedly end up capping your runes. Doing that with 1-3 DCs is reasonable if you're at fairly low runes already, but if you're in an almost rune-capped scenario already, your best bet is to just continue normal play. The main reason for this is that each SS is roughly 1.5x as much damage as each DC is, so missing out on SS's is a huge loss in DPS. DT might seem like a huge difference in your DPS, but getting out a few more SS will usually end up being more DPS. SimC agrees with me on this point as when I changed the actionlist to do exactly what you're suggesting there, I was able to get the DT uptime to 75%, but it was a net-loss in DPS, and even small optimizations for DT uptime came out as minimal changes, some one way, some the other.

As for your second point, AMS is like a small lust on Ultraxion for unholy, as each DC you pop out while in AMS, means you get more SS casts off, so AMS will generally increase both of your abilities considerably, not just DC.

#426 Lamperouqe

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 03:10 PM

You can also stay out for an Hour of Twilight every so often (assuming you are not a designated soaker already), using IBF+AMZ+AMS to soak which gives you a few extra seconds of uptime as well as free RP from AMS.


I'd argue that this is a loss since you will have to hold your AMS for the Hour casts, AMZ costs an unholy rune and IBF costs RP. Being able to use Heroic Will on every Hour cast allows AMS usage on every CD, and no, it will not last for a few extra seconds if used correctly. You can time your Heroic Will usage straight after using an ability to spend the majority of the time in the other phase during a GCD. Using AMS on the pulsing AoE also lets you cap RP with AMS twice, it lasts for two pulses of damage if used correctly.

Speaking of Ultraxion, I've had trouble with my tentacle damage on the fight. For the last few months it has averaged around 2k effective dps for me. Here's a log from last week (I had only 1 pot since there was a ninja pull). I'm standing on the spot right after the 1st line from the edge. If anyone has discovered a spot which doesn't waste any tentacle spawns could you provide a screenshot or something? I know this has been discussed but I can't seem to find the correct spot, or I've just had bad rng for 2 months straight.

I also noticed that since the kills are getting faster and faster you might not be able to hold your garg waiting for a Creche proc soon. Mine almost lasted until the boss died last wednesday when I was trying to hold for Creche, I had to use garg just before I got the proc since I couldn't accurately estimate 30 seconds until boss death (imagine my face when 2nd pot won't work and I garg like 1 sec before proccing Creche).

#427 Maikro

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 04:37 PM

I'd argue that this is a loss since you will have to hold your AMS for the Hour casts, AMZ costs an unholy rune and IBF costs RP. Being able to use Heroic Will on every Hour cast allows AMS usage on every CD, and no, it will not last for a few extra seconds if used correctly. You can time your Heroic Will usage straight after using an ability to spend the majority of the time in the other phase during a GCD. Using AMS on the pulsing AoE also lets you cap RP with AMS twice, it lasts for two pulses of damage if used correctly.

Speaking of Ultraxion, I've had trouble with my tentacle damage on the fight. For the last few months it has averaged around 2k effective dps for me. Here's a log from last week (I had only 1 pot since there was a ninja pull). I'm standing on the spot right after the 1st line from the edge. If anyone has discovered a spot which doesn't waste any tentacle spawns could you provide a screenshot or something? I know this has been discussed but I can't seem to find the correct spot, or I've just had bad rng for 2 months straight.

I also noticed that since the kills are getting faster and faster you might not be able to hold your garg waiting for a Creche proc soon. Mine almost lasted until the boss died last wednesday when I was trying to hold for Creche, I had to use garg just before I got the proc since I couldn't accurately estimate 30 seconds until boss death (imagine my face when 2nd pot won't work and I garg like 1 sec before proccing Creche).


It may be an insignificant DPS loss after considering the UH rune and IBF cost, but I do sincerely doubt it. I find myself resource capped extremely frequently in that fight in general and do not see the cost of AMZ and IBF as a hindrance at all. Not to mention for the first minute of the fight, he casts Instability every 6 seconds which would require 1/2 second precision timing to execute a perfect usage of AMS while accounting for latency, input lag, and server response time, and thats all assuming you are using the 7 second AMS glyph.

On Heroic, you can only do this every 3 Hours anyway, which is 2 minutes and 15 seconds apart so there is still time for two more uses of AMS in between. When it was still relevant and difficult, we had the entire raid stay out for the first HoT (except for 10 people who would be soaking the next two hours) using our CDs to stay alive which helped us squeeze out enough additional DPS to snag an early kill. I believe this was a technique used by a lot of guilds at the time as well. I usually end up having to use Heroic Will at 1.5-2 seconds since sometimes when using Heroic Will at 1 second or .5 seconds (perhaps due to latency, but I am typically around 60ms) it does not register properly and I have died to HoT, as have others on this fight. We made it standard procedure to 'hit the button' at 2 seconds for FL and HW and even during progression this was superior to risking a death by pushing the limits. Thus, every 2 min 15 seconds being able to not waste 2-3 seconds on being phased was enough of a DPS increase to make it a valued technique.

As far as tentacle damage is concerned, this topic has been exhausted numerous times. There is no magic spot, just luck. We stand on the 2nd line in a pile inside the model of one Tauren or Boomkin and my tentacle spawned 8 times and cast 24 Mind Flays and had an uptime of 72 seconds last week and only spawned 6 times the 3 weeks before that. The other DK in our raid at the same exact stacking point had 4 and 3 spawns those weeks. We haven't changed our stack point, ever. It's just luck, luck, luck.

If you want to estimate 30 seconds until boss death, the addon TimeToDie used to do exactly that. Haven't used it in a while and don't know if its updated or works with 4.3 but it used to be quite valuable back in WotLK. Might be worth checking out. Our last heroic kill still took about 5 minutes and 20 seconds, and so its not really an issue on Heroic (yet).

#428 Lamperouqe

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 06:37 PM

It may be an insignificant DPS loss after considering the UH rune and IBF cost, but I do sincerely doubt it. I find myself resource capped extremely frequently in that fight in general and do not see the cost of AMZ and IBF as a hindrance at all. Not to mention for the first minute of the fight, he casts Instability every 6 seconds which would require 1/2 second precision timing to execute a perfect usage of AMS while accounting for latency, input lag, and server response time, and thats all assuming you are using the 7 second AMS glyph.


Even if you are resource capped using a global and a rune on AMZ you will miss an SS' worth of damage, and saving RP for IBF may cost you a DC while waiting for the cast. It's not a loss if you're sitting on plenty RP and don't lose a DC to pool it though, since you cap RP anyway when you soak the cast.

Everyone should be using the AMS glyph, and it might be hard to do in the beginning but doable if you get the rhythm down and easy later in the fight.

On Heroic, you can only do this every 3 Hours anyway, which is 2 minutes and 15 seconds apart so there is still time for two more uses of AMS in between ... We made it standard procedure to 'hit the button' at 2 seconds for FL and HW and even during progression this was superior to risking a death by pushing the limits. Thus, every 2 min 15 seconds being able to not waste 2-3 seconds on being phased was enough of a DPS increase to make it a valued technique.


The point is that you can't save and use AMS when you need the RP, but you have to use it at least 45 seconds before the Hour you soak. If you're freely able to AMS every time you need the RP the skill is used to its maximum potential (avoiding resource starving, like ERW). You may not simply need any extra RP when you soak the cast either.

As for the procedure you use, I admit I have died on Hour a few times with Heroic Will on CD, but I've really been pushing it to like 0.2-0.3 seconds to test my limits. It's fairly safe to use it under 1 sec if you get it down and you don't lag much. That said your way of using it doesn't apply to everyone, staying out might be an increase for you, but it's doable to squeeze an ability in at under 1 sec and spend the time in the other realm when you're on GCD. You will possibly delay an autoattack at best, and if it lasts a bit longer than your global, it's not a decrease unless you cap your resources (and we're talking about <0.5 seconds here, which is negligible).

As far as tentacle damage is concerned, this topic has been exhausted numerous times. There is no magic spot, just luck ... If you want to estimate 30 seconds until boss death, the addon TimeToDie used to do exactly that.


There is a zone you're supposed to stand in. If you're too close the tentacles spawn over the edge not doing anything and if you're too far they will not have range to the boss. I was starting to suspect I am not in this zone seeing such low dps from the tentacle every week for such a long time. I am aware this topic has been exhausted, but what I've read here is basically "don't stand too far", nothing definite about the zone.

Thank you for mentioning that addon, I will try it out.

#429 Maikro

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 09:27 PM

I guess I just prefer to err on the side of safety.

http://cdn1.bossblue...w&img=M9XWM_BMh

That's where we stand, for your reference.

#430 Minoan

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 01:51 AM

Maikro,
that is the second line. Gurthalak works through 3 line.(Line=horisontal edge of the texture)
Rshaman's or Hpriest's circle enables you to stand even on the edge(1st line)
Gurthalak is not working from the distance between 3 and 4 line.
If you've got lazy Rdruid who doesn't want to move from 3l to 4l(where crystals spawn) and you're used to stand in his healing circle, then you're in trouble. In all other cases, don't worry to stand between the 2nd and 3rd line.
In my situation, Rshaman soloes the healing and we're just punching him in 7dps.
(Made that theory tips just if someone doesn't want to revise pages 9-11 of this thread)

#431 Minoan

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 12:15 AM

Good day gentlemans,
after 5 hours of sleep my mind is shattering and I would like to ask you a weird question.
Everyone knows or at least tested that couple of DualFDk wears No'Kaled, the EnchShaman Axe, in offhand. Yesterday I was chatting about Cunning of the Cruel - Item - World of Warcraft with my good friend warlock, so this morning I suggested it may be much more profitable if it scales from our mastery rather than Bone-Link Fetish - Item - World of Warcraft in case of 3 times less GCD(BLF's 30sec against CotC's 10sec), but that is just a thing come to my head, where even loss of 500str may be compensated by more regular procs on AoE fights(Yor'S, Madness HM and maybe Lootship). Would like anyone to test that(playing in 10ppl, seen only 1 sharedloot drop ring for tanks for 22+ weeks and not hoping to see CotC soon)
But at the same time it seems that the only spell that can activate the trinket is Icy Touch(may be rolling blood as well).

#432 Thepiegod

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 11:05 AM

Even without testing I cannot see it out performing the BLF. The problem I see with it is that even if it scales with our mastery, we do not have the spellpower to scale it up to the point where the buff from mastery would really be worth it. Even given the icd of 10 seconds on CotC, using the in game tooltips, I am given an average damage of roughly 5.6k, whereas the average damage of BLF is right around 27k, roughly 4.5x more damage than the cunning, far outweighing the icd difference. Given that, and the loss of 698 str (bonus from Unholy Might, Plate Specialization and MotW/Kings)(plus another 15% of that once rune of the fallen crusader procs) buffing everything else you do, In no way could I see cunning ever pulling ahead of BLF.

Edit: Even with the 4 piece procced, which puts my mastery at 20.85, the tooltip average for cunning only increases to 6074. even in full BiS, which would result in higher damage from the proc, I still would not see that damage exceeding the threshold it would need to to be viable as it would really only amount to 5-10% more shadow damage(guestimated there, but seems about right), whilst the BLF would have continued to scale upwards from the increased attack power granted by the higher strength values on the gear, still leaving it far ahead of cunning.

#433 irongnome

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 11:33 PM

I just decided to re-test the gargoyle GCD capping.

With 2450 haste rating the gargoyle was getting 11 casts in.
With 2450 haste rating and Unholy Presence the gargoyle was getting 16 casts in.
With 4376 haste, Unholy Frenzy and Unholy Presence the gargoyle was getting 16 casts in.
With 4376 haste, Unholy Presence and Unholy Frenzy cast on the gargoyle, the gargoyle was getting 16 casts in.

During the 1st test the gargoyle had a 1.7 second cast time.
During the 2nd test the gargoyle had a 1.5 second cast time.
During the 3rd test the gargoyle had a 1.1 second cast time.
During the 4th test the gargoyle had a 1.3 second cast time.

This leads me to believe two things.

First and foremost; The gargoyle is most definitely GCD capped at a 1.5 second cast time.
A lesser point is that the gargoyle inherits our melee haste rating and not our spell haste rating.

#434 Qahin

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Posted 14 June 2012 - 10:32 AM

"Weights were determined using simulations at 50k iterations with modified stat deltas (particularly, a negative haste delta to adjust for the breakpoint)."

I have just obtained the HC version of Gurthalak, Voice of the Deeps yesterday and I'm not sure how I can run a simcraft simulation to find my new stat weights when I have to manualy change the stat deltas and particularly a negative delta for haste.

Can someone please be so kind and help me or send me an extract of the simcraft profile used to obtain the published stat weights for Gurth normal here?

My character's link is: Qahin @ Aggramar - Game Guide - World of Warcraft

#435 gharnef

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Posted 14 June 2012 - 03:54 PM

"Weights were determined using simulations at 50k iterations with modified stat deltas (particularly, a negative haste delta to adjust for the breakpoint)."

I have just obtained the HC version of Gurthalak, Voice of the Deeps yesterday and I'm not sure how I can run a simcraft simulation to find my new stat weights when I have to manualy change the stat deltas and particularly a negative delta for haste.

Can someone please be so kind and help me or send me an extract of the simcraft profile used to obtain the published stat weights for Gurth normal here?

My character's link is: Qahin @ Aggramar - Game Guide - World of Warcraft


If all you do is change from Gurth normal to Gurth HC you won't need to change your stat weights. This tier unholy doesn't really change its weights except when you go from a non-Gurth weapon to Gurth (it makes mastery > crit).

Just go with Hit > Haste > Mastery > Crit > Exp

#436 Lordkirigi

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Posted 14 June 2012 - 04:48 PM

I still dont understand if with gurthalak the hit has bigger weight, then why strenght is still higher in priority. Someone answered already but it did not really answer to this question.

If i have understood right, "weight" means how important stat is and if something has more weight then it should be higher in priority.

#437 Qahin

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Posted 14 June 2012 - 07:51 PM

If all you do is change from Gurth normal to Gurth HC you won't need to change your stat weights. This tier unholy doesn't really change its weights except when you go from a non-Gurth weapon to Gurth (it makes mastery > crit).

Just go with Hit > Haste > Mastery > Crit > Exp


Thank you very much for your reply. But I was actually looking for the exact stat weights for my gear which I can only get if someone can shed some light to me about how to make the simulation with doing the stat delta shifts. Actually the answer to that is on the sim raft wiki. But I want to know what exactly were the stat delta shifts that were used to obtain the published gurth stat weights at the beginning of this thread. A copy of the profile would be extremely appreciated.

Again thank you for your help in advance and for taking the time to read my post.

#438 gharnef

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Posted 15 June 2012 - 02:32 PM

I still dont understand if with gurthalak the hit has bigger weight, then why strenght is still higher in priority. Someone answered already but it did not really answer to this question.

If i have understood right, "weight" means how important stat is and if something has more weight then it should be higher in priority.


Hit is a capped stat, so after a certain value it has a steep drop in value. For Unholy DKs the two points where hit loses value are 821 hit (spell hit cap) and 961 (special abilities "yellow" hit cap). After 961 hit, doesn't actually affect anything for us. So even though hit has a higher priority until we cap it, there isn't a reasonable gear set that cannot get to the hit cap in current content (ilvls between 375 and 408).

Because every gear set caps it, the only time that the hit weight matters is when another secondary stat surpasses its value even when you have none of it. As in if you had 0 hit, and say 100 points of haste would increase your DPS more than 100 points of hit.




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